Protestants and The Crucifix

[MariaG]

Hi Maria!

Actually the fish played a significant role in the NT, no? Miracles of the fish and loaves, the appearance of Christ to the Apostles where he tells them to “toss your net” and they harvested in abundance and his calling “I will make you fishers of men” all lend credance to the fish as a symbol of Christianity.
I dont have a problem with the cross as a symbol of Christianity - I was simply pointing out that when it comes to symbolizing the RESURRECTED Christ that the empty cross does little. That is because the Cross was empty before Christ was nailed to it, and it was empty after he was taken from it and still had not risen.
I understand that we can all intellectually agree that the empty cross is a symbol of the resurrection, but only BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT WE DEFINE IT AS SUCH, not because the emptiness of the cross relates to the Resurrection on its own.

Agreed! Which is why the argument from Protestants that the cross is **more **representative of the risen Lord than a crucifix to be completely ridiculous.

God bless,
Maria

 

[dessert]

Evidently a good number of Lutherans don’t consider themselves Protestant at all.

Which I really don’t understand.

The word was coined specifically to refer to a group of Lutheran princes who objected to the terms of settlement ratified at the Deit of Speier.

It would seem that, like the word “Evangelical”, some Lutherans are willing to give it up to those who have gone quite a ways beyond what it originally meant.

I looked up the Deit of Speier, I had never read about it before, so it is nice to see you back steadfast Mike. I have three Luthern sister in laws and no they don’t consider themselves protestant.
But they arn’t really Luthern anymore either so the label doesn’t really mean much.

 

[Sixtus]

I have a very large crucifix in my home. It reminds me of the price that was paid for human weakeness.

It has not only deterred me from sins but * others also.*

 

[dessert]

I have a very large crucifix in my home. It reminds me of the price that was paid for human weakeness.

It has not only deterred me from sins but * others also.*

Well you got me on that. I’m going to get one. My husband is not catholic so we’ll be arguing about doing this but I will get my wayy! We have a rather large painting of the last supper, and one of Jesus in the garden and a poster of all the names of God, you know Jehova etc. and all the bible reference, but a big crucifix would be amazing, I will have to look on line. My family already thinks I’m a little fanatical anyways. I have order my Catholic bible so that takes care of this months allowance.

sin is defined ;as an offence or revolt against God ( like mutiny)
deliberate defiance
wickedness
iniquity
ungodliness
that leaves out sneaking the ice cream? I hope? my weakness?
I’m on a new kick called definitions sorry!
"Lord Jesus, complete your work in me! Make my love abound more and more with knowledge and discernment so that I will choose you in all things and bear fruit for your kingdom.’ Word Among Us publication

 

[Sixtus]

our Lord as a carpenter used to make these crosses,

It is highly unlikely that the Author of Life in His humanity, who gladly suffered a most ignomous and cruel death for His unworthy creation, would have participated in the manufacture of execution instruments to be used on His beloved creation.

Pax Christi.

 

[glimmer]

It is highly unlikely that the Author of Life in His humanity, who gladly suffered a most ignomous and cruel death for His unworthy creation, would have participated in the manufacture of execution instruments to be used on His beloved creation.

I thought it was the Roman soldiers who made the crosses.

 

[Sixtus]

Protestants do the opposite of Catholics.

Actually. I can understand the sentiment as that sometimes appear to be the case.

As a very much committed Catholic who has worshipped at a Protestant Church on a regular basis, I would just like to reasure you that not all Protestants are like that.

I have been very welcomed into the Protestant community.

I know of a Methodist Chapel in a small village on a busy main road where they have displayed the largest cross you could ever imagine.

There is no figure on it. Enquirers ask why there is no figure on it. They are told 'don’t you know? Because He is risen!

WOW, THAT IS PUNCHY. Fellow Catholics take note!!

 

[Victorious]

I know of a Methodist Chapel in a small village on a busy main road where they have displayed the largest cross you could ever imagine.

There is no figure on it. Enquirers ask why there is no figure on it. They are told 'don’t you know? Because He is risen!

WOW, THAT IS PUNCHY. Fellow Catholics take note!!

Sorry, but that’s tired, shopworn, and just more bumper-sticker theology. Besides, it wasn’t the Resurrection that made the cross bare, but Jesus’ friends taking Him down from it. He was dead at the time.

The reality is that the road to the Resurrection only goes by way of Calvary, and we’re doing an injustice to Jesus when we try to forget it.

 

[rr1213]

With all respect, this issue is truly absurd. It’s like saying “Christmas is more important than Easter…or Easter is more important that Christmas”. In truth, what is the Passion and Resurrection without the Incarnation? And what is the value of the Incarnation without the Passion and Resurrection? They cannot be separated. I don’t for a moment think that Catholics forget the Resurrection because they prefer a cross with the Body of Christ on it. Nor should Catholics believe that Protestants forget the Passion because we prefer an empty cross to emphasize that He is risen. I can’t believe that with all the real issues that divide us that we have kept this stupid thread going this long discussing this non-issue…

 

[glimmer]

I can’t believe that with all the real issues that divide us that we have kept this stupid thread going this long discussing this non-issue…

I keep up with this thread sometimes only because I forget to unsubscribe and the reminders keep popping up in my inbox. But I think you are right. How can people get so wrapped up in all the various interpretations of symbolism that the reality of what transpired takes a back seat?

 

[dessert]

With all respect, this issue is truly absurd. It’s like saying “Christmas is more important than Easter…or Easter is more important that Christmas”. In truth, what is the Passion and Resurrection without the Incarnation? And what is the value of the Incarnation without the Passion and Resurrection? They cannot be separated. I don’t for a moment think that Catholics forget the Resurrection because they prefer a cross with the Body of Christ on it. Nor should Catholics believe that Protestants forget the Passion because we prefer an empty cross to emphasize that He is risen. I can’t believe that with all the real issues that divide us that we have kept this stupid thread going this long discussing this non-issue…

I don’t think these threads are stupid! There are real people with real problems and questions out there so what else did you have in mind? Ask one on this thread or start a thread with a question like Glimmer and others. What are some of the real issues?
I think you have a good point the incarnation (God making His prescence known on earth and the Passion His suffering and death and the ressurection (return to life, Christ rising from the dead) should not be seperated there are one. Jesus said, It is finished!
GOD IS OUR REFUGE AND STRENGTH A VERY PRESENT HELP IN TROUBLE. PSALM 46 ; 1 RSV CE
return from the Desert

 

[MariaG]

With all respect, this issue is truly absurd. It’s like saying “Christmas is more important than Easter…or Easter is more important that Christmas”. In truth, what is the Passion and Resurrection without the Incarnation? And what is the value of the Incarnation without the Passion and Resurrection? They cannot be separated. I don’t for a moment think that Catholics forget the Resurrection because they prefer a cross with the Body of Christ on it. Nor should Catholics believe that Protestants forget the Passion because we prefer an empty cross to emphasize that He is risen. I can’t believe that with all the real issues that divide us that we have kept this stupid thread going this long discussing this non-issue…

One would think wouldn’t they .

But just wait. After this thread breathes it’s last, a few months/weeks from then, the same topic will pop up. From a non-Catholic who wants to know why we don’t worship the Risen Lord or a Catholic who wants to know why Protestants want to forget about His sacrifice.

I like your view though. Just as we can’t take isolate scripture and form a complete view of God and His desires for us, neither can we just focus on one aspect of Christ’s life to get a full picture of God incarnate.

I think this may be why so often we hear the words, “Christ’s life, death and resurrection” They are all connected to testify to the Truth.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[AngelRose81]

I think it is because Protestants want to focus on the risen Christ as well. That and being “saved” by the risen Christ. This really struck me when the Passion was in theaters. After I went to see it, we were discussing it at work and one of the girls I work with (who is Assembly of God or Church of God, I think) said she loved it and she left changed but then she said that at the end there was no promise of salvation. It left me confused b/c to me, the whole movie was the promise of salvation. The crucifixion was the salvation to me. So I think it has to be the focus on the risen Christ that is the reason for not having crucifixes.

A side note, however, my faher is a Methodist minister and one of the churches he preaches in has a beautiful large wooden crucifix on the wall (right next to a painting of the “Rapture” oddly enough!).

 

[Jeanette_L]

You know, when I think back to what my mindset was when I was an Evangelical, I can honestly say that when I looked at the Crucifix, as opposed to the Risen Christ pictures, what confronted me at my core was my own sin. I mean, I was confronted by my part in His need to suffer. And not just my past sin, but my current sin. And my belief system really didn’t encourage me to deal with that head on. Our focus was on the future, on forgiveness that was secured, on living life with joy (which we should), but never was I encouraged from just about any sector of Evangelicalism (with the exception of the Holiness churches, I will add) to deal with my sin on a daily basis.

I think that the Crucifix is seen as an obsession with sin, suffering and death. And they want to look at the joy of the Resurrection instead. They don’t understand that the Catholic faith embraces both. We don’t look to the Resurrection without embracing and adoring the Sacrifice that made it possible. We see the beauty in the Love that hangs on that cross. They only see it as an unhealthy obsession on our part.

They have never read the Early Church Fathers!

 

[jim1130]

I personally believe, from my expereinces, that the reason most Protestants do not accept the Crucifix is because it is Catholic. Most Protestants can rationalize until the sun rises and sets, but the reality is that the Crucifix is Catholic and most Protestants wish to disassociate with and distance themselves from anything Catholic.

 

[dessert]

I just read on another thread how some one suggested adding two stations of the cross, 15 and 16 to represent the ressurection and asscention so that it is included into the entire concept of the birth death and ressurection. I think this is a good idea. tThen we would have a unity of it all .
return from the Desert
PSALM 118;1and 29
O GIVE THANKS TO THE LORD, FOR HE IS GOOD;
HIS STEADFAST LOVE ENDURES FOREVER! RSV CE

 

[Jeanette_L]

I personally believe, from my expereinces, that the reason most Protestants do not accept the Crucifix is because it is Catholic. Most Protestants can rationalize until the sun rises and sets, but the reality is that the Crucifix is Catholic and most Protestants wish to disassociate with and distance themselves from anything Catholic.

You’re right about this. But they don’t really want it to appear that it is the only reason, so they rationalize why they are uncomfortable with the Catholic spirituality behind the Crucifix. Same thing with the Sign of the Cross.

It’s that whole “tangled web” thing they got goin’ on.

 

[jim1130]

I personally believe, from my expereinces, that the reason most Protestants do not accept the Crucifix is because it is Catholic. Most Protestants can rationalize until the sun rises and sets, but the reality is that the Crucifix is Catholic and most Protestants wish to disassociate with and distance themselves from anything Catholic.

Jeanette L:

You’re right about this. But they don’t really want it to appear that it is the only reason, so they rationalize why they are uncomfortable with the Catholic spirituality behind the Crucifix. Same thing with the Sign of the Cross.

It’s that whole “tangled web” thing they got goin’ on.

When I make the Sign of the Cross, people stare at me as if I am swatting imaginary flies or mosquitoes.

I was not trying to be difficult or argumentative about the Crucifix/Cross, but my experience is that the non-Catholics will do everything to rationalzie not accepting Catholicism. Look at the Eucharist (purely symbolic, they say), Baptism (purely symbolic, they say), Purgatory (no Scriptural support), Communion of Saints (no such thing), 7 books of the OT (not inspired), etc. It has already been mentioned before on this site that the non-Catholics try to pit the Catholics vs. the Bible as if the non-Catholics are the only adherents to the Bible. I learn SO much about my faith on this site that it frustrates me whenever I interpert non-Catholic pride as the reason for not seeing the truth of Catholicism. Sometimes the non-Catholics people are just too smart and intellectual for themselves.

Just rambling today. Sorry.

 

[rr1213]

Jim1130 & Jeanette L.,
You can read above numerous posts by Protestants themselves who have stated what they believe regarding the use of a crucifix and/or an empty cross as symbols of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection for all of our sins. I would suggest that you review those posts carefully to grasp a more nuanced and accurate understanding of Protestant beliefs. Contrary to what you may think, we are not consumed with the Catholic experience and the need to “rationalize” or “disassociate” ourselves from the Catholic Church. Do you truly think that Protestants do not believe in the Passion of our Lord? The differences you see are differences in emphasis, the Catholic culture tends to emphasize one thing while the Protestant the other, but both faiths accept and embrace all of these elements. It is not a sign of “Catholic superiority” that Catholics generally use a crucifix and Protestants generally use an empty cross. Or vice-versa for that matter.
RR1213

 

[jim1130]

Jim1130 & Jeanette L.,
You can read above numerous posts by Protestants themselves who have stated what they believe regarding the use of a crucifix and/or an empty cross as symbols of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection for all of our sins. I would suggest that you review those posts carefully to grasp a more nuanced and accurate understanding of Protestant beliefs. Contrary to what you may think, we are not consumed with the Catholic experience and the need to “rationalize” or “disassociate” ourselves from the Catholic Church. Do you truly think that Protestants do not believe in the Passion of our Lord? The differences you see are differences in emphasis, the Catholic culture tends to emphasize one thing while the Protestant the other, but both faiths accept and embrace all of these elements. It is not a sign of “Catholic superiority” that Catholics generally use a crucifix and Protestants generally use an empty cross. Or vice-versa for that matter.
RR1213

I disagree and I stand by my statement based on my personal experiences and from my interpretations of what I read.

I did read what was written and it was nothing more than an effort to rationalzie why not to use the Crucifix. The Crucifix is Catholic. Some denominations are beginning to realize the power of the Crucifix and what it means, but not all.

I do not know how many cars and trucks I pass each day that show a decal (some of the decals are illegal since they show Calvin of Calvin and Hobbes fame and Sam Waterson, the artist, never sold the rights of his characters for commercial use) with someone kneeling before an empty cross (of course, one could argue that the figure is worshipping the cross since they are kneeling before it because, after all, whenever a Catholic kneels before something that Catholic is worshipping that object). Christ is not on the Cross. So why is the person kneeling before it? Non-Catholics wish to assign it a meaning.

We’ll just have to disagree with this issue.