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stefany379
Guest
Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?
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Victorious
Guest
I have had Protestants tell me they “prefer to focus on the Risen Christ.”
Trouble is, the only road that leads to the empty tomb goes by way of Calvary.
C
Contarini
Guest
Come to Christ’s United Methodist Church in Roanoke, IN any Sunday morning at 9:30 and I’ll show you a crucifix. Admittedly it’s a small one a little to one side, and they display it because it’s a gift from their sister church in Africa. But it is a crucifix complete with corpus. . . .
Edwin
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stefany379
Guest
It’s a small one, a little to the side. THAT DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. Give me a break with that answer…
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Yes, infact there is no greater victory for the devil than having people forget what Jesus had to go through. Infact terms like “Passion” are foreign and confusing to most Protestants.
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stefany379
Guest
That’s the problem, it’s like they are in denial with the whole Passion. Tthat is so wrong. the Blessed Mother said “Although The Ressurection is good, that comes later” (March 2,1998-at Medjugorgie to the 6 visionaries)
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rbarcia
Guest
I am not a Protestant, just a Christian. I preach Christ crucified. Much like catholics tell us to read the catechism and not just take the words from someone catholic who may be misinformed, you should do research or something.
The reason why Jesus is not on the cross is because it is wrong to make idols for worship as per the second command.
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Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
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Even images meant to represent Him.
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Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.
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And I have the most respect for the price of my salvation. Christ paid for my salvation with His Body and Blood.
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Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
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So you feel the lack of the Jesus on the cross is an insult and a denial for what you call “Passion.” And that we have no respect for the cross. I feel that your repeated offering for sin is an insult as the scriptures clearly say the work is done once and for all For it implies His sacrifice was not enough for sin. And if you believe it is the “same” event as that of the cross, then you bring the offering down to something that can never take away sin.
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Hebrews 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
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And so the biggest mockery that of having a dead crucified staue looking over and over at daily sacrifices that is suppose to equal that work of the cross.
That is the Ultimate denial of His work on the cross
Instead of sitting together in breaking bread together, and eating and drinking in memory of Him, in communion.
That wonderful work on the cross that is of Christ !!! And He is Risen, no longer being offered as the scriptures clearly and directly state.
http://home.nj.rr.com/rbarcia/fairview_gospel_church/images/Cross.gif
The reason why Jesus is not on the cross is because it is wrong to make idols for worship as per the second command.
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Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
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Even images meant to represent Him.
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Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.
**
And I have the most respect for the price of my salvation. Christ paid for my salvation with His Body and Blood.
**
Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
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So you feel the lack of the Jesus on the cross is an insult and a denial for what you call “Passion.” And that we have no respect for the cross. I feel that your repeated offering for sin is an insult as the scriptures clearly say the work is done once and for all For it implies His sacrifice was not enough for sin. And if you believe it is the “same” event as that of the cross, then you bring the offering down to something that can never take away sin.
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Hebrews 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
**
And so the biggest mockery that of having a dead crucified staue looking over and over at daily sacrifices that is suppose to equal that work of the cross.
That is the Ultimate denial of His work on the cross
Instead of sitting together in breaking bread together, and eating and drinking in memory of Him, in communion.
That wonderful work on the cross that is of Christ !!! And He is Risen, no longer being offered as the scriptures clearly and directly state.
http://home.nj.rr.com/rbarcia/fairview_gospel_church/images/Cross.gif
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stefany379
Guest
you clearly are insane. GOD WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT HIS SON JESUS, JESUS WAS NOT AN IDOL! He was talking about the golden calves they worshipped and other idols.
A DEAD CRUCIFIED STATUE?? Is that what you call Our Lord who died for you? you should be ashamed of yourself. You don’t even know what kind of christian you are… I will pray for you.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
A little overboard Stef?
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Contarini
Guest
Why should I give you a break? You certainly don’t give Protestants a break, do you?
Small or large, you see it when you walk in. I saw it right away. That answers your question.
Edwin
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simbagizmo
Guest
Please read the Exodus 20:4 verse again.
You are correct that this is talking about golden calves or any other idol, but we are further told not to make any likeness of what is in heaven, earth, or sea. A key word here is the word “or”, “not make for yourself an idol, or …”
Verse 5 he also states that not you are not also to worship them. So, we are told not to make them, and not to worship any that may already exist. This is the reason why some churches do not have statues or angles, biblical figures, or Jesus.
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Contarini
Guest
Balderdash. Violence to words is an insult to Christ the incarnate Word.
This implies that Jesus is not truly God and Man. If He is, then obviously this command doesn’t apply to images of Him. Or are you denying that the purpose of the command was to forbid the imaging of the invisible God?
Stefany is indeed over the top, but it’s hard to blame her when you call an image of our Redeemer an idol.
It all boils down to whether you really believe in the Incarnation or not. If you apply the OT against crucifixes, you should logically apply it against Incarnation and Trinity as well. That’s what the Jews do. Why don’t you agree with them? What nuance can you make to “there is one God” and “no one has seen God” that doesn’t also apply to “don’t make images”?
Edwin
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rbarcia
Guest
I felt insulted as well, when the thread was clearly started on an attack that we deny the work on the cross.
Your logic does not make sense to me. My belief in not worshipping statues has nothing to do with my belief in the Deity of Christ. Why is it logical for me to say because I applied Old Testement verses on statues, it is logical that I apply it to the Jesus. Both the Old Testement and New Testement clearly confirm Jesus. I can apply both the Old Testement to the Deity of Christ.
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Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
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and New
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John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend
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I do not deny the Trinity or Diety of Christ by denying a statue. If you want New Testement verses against idols, then here:
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Acts 15
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood.
1 John 5:21
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 Thessalonians
9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
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There are many more. Both the Old and New testement Confirm Christ Deity. As does confirms that idols should not be worshipped. The Old and New Testement are noth the Word of God, who never chanes.
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“I, the Lord, do not change.”
Malachi 3:6
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the beginning and the end,”
says the Lord,
“who is, and who was,
and who is to come,
the Almighty.”
Revelations 1:8
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K
Katholikos
Guest
Does the prohibition against likenesses apply to everything in heaven, on the earth, or under the earth? Do you have a driver’s license with your picture on it? Do you have pictures of your family? Have you told the Government that they’re breaking the law of God by keeping that Statue of Liberty around? What about all those statues in our public parks and in the halls of the nation’s Capitol? This is absurd reasoning.
Hmmmm. God commanded the Jews not to make images and likenesses, then He commanded the Jews to make images and likenesses?
Does God oppose those who make art? Poor Michaelangelo must be in h-e-double toothpicks forever…
Katholikos
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Belcanto
Guest
Edwin,
How would you respond to James White’s contention that in a religous context, images are not allowed in worship? From his website:
“There simply is no biblical basis for saying it is acceptable to give service to created beings but only worship to God, for both concepts are part and parcel of the single meaning of “worship” in Scripture. “You shall worship and serve God alone” cannot be changed into “you shall worship God alone; but as long as you call your religious devotion ‘service’ you can ‘serve’ Mary and angels and saints, too.” The Bible not only does not recognize such a distinction, it denies it, both lexicographically (both latria and dulia trace back to biblical usages and both terms refer to divine worship) as well as by direct assertion.”
aomin.org/index.php?catid=14&blogid=1
Pax Tecum,
Jay
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glimmer
Guest
I am non-Catholic and I have a crucifix on the wall. This is because I understand very well the passion of Christ. Jesus stayed on the Cross until He was completely dead. The disciple is not above his Master. I have heard much exhortation to “reckon ourselves dead”, it has no reality unless you remember that the resurrection always follows the crucifixon.
BTW, I am so sorry to see bigotry continuing on this thread.
BTW, I am so sorry to see bigotry continuing on this thread.
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Catholics do not worship statues for the same reasons you do not worship statues. Statues are an adornment. This is something God did not seem to mind, but rather God demanded in the making of the Ark of the Covenent. In fact, He was extremely specific in how he wanted the Ark made, and it included “images” of something that was in heaven (angels). Now how is it that God went against His own commandment when He asked that the Ark be made with the adornment of of the Ark? That doesn’t make sense unless you understand the intent of His commandment was to prevent the worship of idols. Consider too that God didn’t have a problem with the olivewood cheribum that adorned Solomon’s temple. God also commanded the building of the bronze serpent and it wasn’t until the Israelites burned incense **to it **that it was broken into pieces (rightly so).
If statues were indeed worshipped at the Catholic Church, then we would not be denying it. To deny something that you are truly worshipping would be blasphemy, would it not? And yet time after time we are accused of worshipping statues and time after time we deny it. If you think that the tender rememberance of the Sacrifice of Jesus at the sight of a crucifix constitutes worship then we should start a new thread about what worship is.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
Now that I am a Catholic, I can tell you first hand that Evangelicals/Fundamentalists have a coronary if you have or wear a Crucifix. They believe and say that Catholics worship a dead Christ, not a risen One. They believe that only they worship a risen Christ. It is total nonsense, but what can you do when you cannot reason with people? When they close their ears and minds as soon as you start to speak. 
lalalalalalalalalalal :banghead:
The Crucifix for us is a reminder of what our redemption cost our Lord. It is a reminder of what we are called to everyday as Christians. Pick up your cross and follow. This is not a one-time event on the day you say the sinner’s prayer. This is a daily event until your body goes into the ground. Then comes the resurrection, not before. Remember the old saying, “don’t put the cart before the horse”? Don’t put the resurrection before the cross.
To keep your eyes on the Cross of Christ is to keep your eyes on your own life if you are living it according to the Gospel of Christ. Does this mean that we are to walk around gloomy and beaten down? Heavens no! We of all people are to have the joy of Christ, having been counted worthy to follow in His steps as He has called us! To share in His sufferings, as St. Paul tells us. To deny this is to deny the Bible itself!
All this nonsense about worshipping idols is absolutely ridiculous. These people don’t know what they are talking about. They use it as an excuse to remain in darkness, because to admit that they have misrepresented the Catholic Church on this issue, well, it’s like death to them, a horror beyond what their hearts could take. If you look at a picture in your wallet to remind you of someone you love, you are an idolator in their reasoning, and yet they won’t admit it’s the same thing. It is embarrassing, really. I am embarrassed for them (and very sad actually) when I have to listen to it coming out of their mouths time and again. Which I do, and I am.
Lord, give me grace, sometimes I think I’m going to lose it!
lalalalalalalalalalal :banghead:The Crucifix for us is a reminder of what our redemption cost our Lord. It is a reminder of what we are called to everyday as Christians. Pick up your cross and follow. This is not a one-time event on the day you say the sinner’s prayer. This is a daily event until your body goes into the ground. Then comes the resurrection, not before. Remember the old saying, “don’t put the cart before the horse”? Don’t put the resurrection before the cross.
To keep your eyes on the Cross of Christ is to keep your eyes on your own life if you are living it according to the Gospel of Christ. Does this mean that we are to walk around gloomy and beaten down? Heavens no! We of all people are to have the joy of Christ, having been counted worthy to follow in His steps as He has called us! To share in His sufferings, as St. Paul tells us. To deny this is to deny the Bible itself!
All this nonsense about worshipping idols is absolutely ridiculous. These people don’t know what they are talking about. They use it as an excuse to remain in darkness, because to admit that they have misrepresented the Catholic Church on this issue, well, it’s like death to them, a horror beyond what their hearts could take. If you look at a picture in your wallet to remind you of someone you love, you are an idolator in their reasoning, and yet they won’t admit it’s the same thing. It is embarrassing, really. I am embarrassed for them (and very sad actually) when I have to listen to it coming out of their mouths time and again. Which I do, and I am.
Lord, give me grace, sometimes I think I’m going to lose it!
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
What I am going to say does not necessarily pertain to all Protestants, but I know it does to some, including some preachers, because I have discussed it with them.
The explanation I have been given is that Protestants believe Christ’s death and resurrection were salvific at a moment in time and from that moment, Christians were redeemed (some would say “saved”) The absence of a corpus on the cross signifies that. The Passion is over and now the only issue is redemption accomplished. It is related to the belief (among some) in salvation through faith alone. Acceptance of the salvific nature of Jesus’ death and resurrection, in and of itself, brings salvation. Therefore, the Passion is a symbol that does not, any longer, pertain to the Christian “enterprise”. It does not have the same relevance and immediacy to Protestants as it does to Catholics, who neither believe in being “saved” in the same sense, or in salvation by faith alone.
Secondarily, it is related to the rejection by some Protestants, of the whole sacrificial concept of the Eucharist as Catholics view it.
To some, this is almost mandatory, as the Catholic Eucharist, in Catholic doctrine, requires priests; something soundly rejected by many Protestants.
On a deeper level, and not considered by all Protestants, but certainly by some, it has to do with the concept of time and the Incarnation. Protestant “time”, in a religious sense, is more linear than it is in Catholic consciousness. To many Protestants, time is a straight line, and the whole sacrifice of Calvary is over. To Catholics, it is from eternity into eternity. It is never over, because in God, there is no “time.” The Catholic notion deepens the pathos of the Passion, because one thinks, then, of a God who delivered Himself to an eternal sacrifice, rather than one that happened, then ended.
Also, to some (but not all) Protestants, there is a different notion of the Incarnation. To Catholics, God, through Jesus, entered permanently into human existence, and changed it by His continued presence in humanity. For this reason, men (priests) have the power to forgive sins; something only God could do, but for God’s “sharing” certain of His power and therefore nature, with men.
In some Protestant churches, but not all, any kind of ornamentation is considered insufficiently reverent. Statutes of any kind are not looked upon kindly for this reason.
Finally, of course, there is the “graven image” thing.
The explanation I have been given is that Protestants believe Christ’s death and resurrection were salvific at a moment in time and from that moment, Christians were redeemed (some would say “saved”) The absence of a corpus on the cross signifies that. The Passion is over and now the only issue is redemption accomplished. It is related to the belief (among some) in salvation through faith alone. Acceptance of the salvific nature of Jesus’ death and resurrection, in and of itself, brings salvation. Therefore, the Passion is a symbol that does not, any longer, pertain to the Christian “enterprise”. It does not have the same relevance and immediacy to Protestants as it does to Catholics, who neither believe in being “saved” in the same sense, or in salvation by faith alone.
Secondarily, it is related to the rejection by some Protestants, of the whole sacrificial concept of the Eucharist as Catholics view it.
To some, this is almost mandatory, as the Catholic Eucharist, in Catholic doctrine, requires priests; something soundly rejected by many Protestants.
On a deeper level, and not considered by all Protestants, but certainly by some, it has to do with the concept of time and the Incarnation. Protestant “time”, in a religious sense, is more linear than it is in Catholic consciousness. To many Protestants, time is a straight line, and the whole sacrifice of Calvary is over. To Catholics, it is from eternity into eternity. It is never over, because in God, there is no “time.” The Catholic notion deepens the pathos of the Passion, because one thinks, then, of a God who delivered Himself to an eternal sacrifice, rather than one that happened, then ended.
Also, to some (but not all) Protestants, there is a different notion of the Incarnation. To Catholics, God, through Jesus, entered permanently into human existence, and changed it by His continued presence in humanity. For this reason, men (priests) have the power to forgive sins; something only God could do, but for God’s “sharing” certain of His power and therefore nature, with men.
In some Protestant churches, but not all, any kind of ornamentation is considered insufficiently reverent. Statutes of any kind are not looked upon kindly for this reason.
Finally, of course, there is the “graven image” thing.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Sorry to follow myself, but I was afraid of running out of room.
To many Protestants, the Incarnation was a “one time thing”. God became man; died, rose again, went to heaven and left us certain precepts to follow in order to obtain the salvation He demonstrated to us as possible. The relationship thereafter was entirely vertical. One confesses one’s sins to God alone. No man can do that. No man can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. No ordination is necessary, as priests are no different from other men as regards Divine power. In that sense, then, the Incarnation did not alter human nature. God did not share His power with men. Protestantism is less “earthy”, less “fleshly” than Catholicism in that regard. The rejection of priests and sacraments rather mandated that view of things, though many Protestants would say it is the other way around; that the singular relationship of man to God makes priests and sacraments unnecessary.
Now, there are many, many variations in what Protestants believe, and as I said at the start, I do not say that the above applies to all of them. It certainly does not. Some Protestant groups come very close to believing the same things Catholics believe. Some claim they and Catholics are but part of the very same Church, with only differences in emphasis here and there. Some, of course, reject everything they think might possibly be Catholic on principle. But if you take protestantism as a conglomerate, one or more of the above will apply to the great majority of them.
To many Protestants, the Incarnation was a “one time thing”. God became man; died, rose again, went to heaven and left us certain precepts to follow in order to obtain the salvation He demonstrated to us as possible. The relationship thereafter was entirely vertical. One confesses one’s sins to God alone. No man can do that. No man can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. No ordination is necessary, as priests are no different from other men as regards Divine power. In that sense, then, the Incarnation did not alter human nature. God did not share His power with men. Protestantism is less “earthy”, less “fleshly” than Catholicism in that regard. The rejection of priests and sacraments rather mandated that view of things, though many Protestants would say it is the other way around; that the singular relationship of man to God makes priests and sacraments unnecessary.
Now, there are many, many variations in what Protestants believe, and as I said at the start, I do not say that the above applies to all of them. It certainly does not. Some Protestant groups come very close to believing the same things Catholics believe. Some claim they and Catholics are but part of the very same Church, with only differences in emphasis here and there. Some, of course, reject everything they think might possibly be Catholic on principle. But if you take protestantism as a conglomerate, one or more of the above will apply to the great majority of them.
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