Protestants and the forgiveness of sins

[JKirkLVNV]

Are you saying that is God unwilling to grant us forgiveness for our sins if we petition Him directly without going through a priest, or have I misunderstood you?

If we are perfectly contrite (that is to say, that we are sorry for our sins because of love of God rather than fear of punishment), then God may forgive us should we be unable to confess to a priest. God MAY act outside of His Sacraments should He choose to do so, but we have no objective way of knowing that He does. We know objectively that He will do as He has promised through the sacraments of confession. We know that our sins are forgiven by the priest, who is given the faculty to grant absolution by the bishop, who is a successor to the Apostles, to whom Christ promised “whosesoever sins you shall forgive shall be forgiven them, whosesoever sins you shall retain shall be retained against them.”

The Church makes no subjective judgement on what God MAY or MIGHT do; Her responsibility is to proclaim the objective truth.

A sincere cry for Mercy? God will judge what that is. He always turns His Face toward Mercy when He may, but He Alone can judge when that is.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

If we are perfectly contrite (that is to say, that we are sorry for our sins because of love of God rather than fear of punishment), then God may forgive us should we be unable to confess to a priest. God MAY act outside of His Sacraments should He choose to do so, but we have no objective way of knowing that He does. We know objectively that He will do as He has promised through the sacraments of confession. We know that our sins are forgiven by the priest, who is given the faculty to grant absolution by the bishop, who is a successor to the Apostles, to whom Christ promised “whosesoever sins you shall forgive shall be forgiven them, whosesoever sins you shall retain shall be retained against them.”

The Church makes no subjective judgement on what God MAY or MIGHT do; Her responsibility is to proclaim the objective truth.

A sincere cry for Mercy? God will judge what that is. He always turns His Face toward Mercy when He may, but He Alone can judge when that is.

I understand the perspective that confessing before a priest is the only way of being sure one’s sins are forgiven. However, this question came out of Jacob Fenton’s post above, stating that it is possible for priests to mistakenly believe someone is truly contrite, and therefore the individual does not receive forgiveness for their sin.

If priests can misjudge the contriteness of a confessor and thereby issue a statement of absolution which is invalid, then it would seem there is no assurance in confessing before a priest. And if there is no assurance in confessing before a priest, then I ask: what benefit is there to confessing before a priest? Is Jacob’s post simply incorrect, and either priests are inerrant in their assessments of contrition or their statements of absolution hold regardless of whether those assessments are correct?

 

[cazayoux]

What if a man chooses to not forgive our sins?

This is the authority Jesus gave to these men when He breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
So the apostles make that decision whether or not to forgive or retain the sins of an individual.

What is they refuse to “un-bind” our sins?

‘un-bind’ doesn’t seem like the right term.
We should use ‘retain’.

Why can’t a man appeal to God for forgiveness, which He promises to do, rather than appeal to a man who may choose to withold forgiveness?

Jesus Himself gave this power to men.
Why would you ignore the normal method that Jesus has set up?
At least with confession to a man, you will know whether or not your sins are forgiven. If your sins are not forgiven, you will know why, whether it is because you are not penitent or do not promise to never do that sin again.

This isn’t a punishment, but will come with guidance to correct your life and point it back to God.

If you ask God for forgiven directly and you are not really penitent or plan to go ahead and commit that sin again, will God forgive you?

Is it possible you might not be an objective person when it comes to this?

Wouldn’t that be a contradiction?

No contradiction.
God alone forgives.
The ‘how’ is given in John 20:21-23

[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Cheers!
michel

 

[cazayoux]

If priests can misjudge the contriteness of a confessor and thereby issue a statement of absolution which is invalid, then it would seem there is no assurance in confessing before a priest.

If you go to confession trying to fool the priest, God knows your heart even if the priest does not.
If you are honest when you go to the priest, he will help you with regard to the sin. He gives guidance. He gives an objective measure that you may not be capable of yourself.

Yes, you can lie to the priest intentionally, however, in being honest with the priest he may help you to be honest with yourself as well. THIS is the goal… truth! And to seek truth is to seek Jesus.

Ego sum via et veritas et vita

michel

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

If you go to confession trying to fool the priest, God knows your heart even if the priest does not.
If you are honest when you go to the priest, he will help you with regard to the sin. He gives guidance. He gives an objective measure that you may not be capable of yourself.

Yes, you can lie to the priest intentionally, however, in being honest with the priest he may help you to be honest to yourself as well.

michel

…but as you’ve said (and I agree with you on this point) that we do try to fool ourselves at times, so how do we know if we’re being honest in going to a priest or if we’re still harboring deceit behind an outside appearance and even an inward self-delusion of piety?

 

[cazayoux]

…but as you’ve said (and I agree with you on this point) that we do try to fool ourselves at times, so how do we know if we’re being honest in going to a priest or if we’re still harboring deceit behind an outside appearance and even an inward self-delusion of piety?

TALK to the priest, he may be able to help you.
Why deny that help that Jesus set up for you?
It’s a better chance for true piety *with *the help.

michel

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

TALK to the priest, he may be able to help you.
Why deny that help that Jesus set up for you?
It’s a better chance for true piety *with *the help.

michel

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. A follow up question: James 5:13-20 seems to be a central passage to the practice of confession, yet the language used (James 5:16a “Therefore, confess your sins to one another”) seems to indicate confession much more as something to be done among the body rather than between one member of the body and one priest. Any thoughts on that?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. A follow up question: James 5:13-20 seems to be a central passage to the practice of confession, yet the language used (James 5:16a “Therefore, confess your sins to one another”) seems to indicate confession much more as something to be done among the body rather than between one member of the body and one priest. Any thoughts on that?

Just to show you that people can interpret the Scriptures any way they want.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Just to show you that people can interpret the Scriptures any way they want.

Confession among the body would seem to be the most straightforward interpretation of “to one another”, and the context seems to indicate the statement was directed to the body as a whole. Do you see some flaw in that?

 

[churchcamefirst]

Confession among the body would seem to be the most straightforward interpretation of “to one another”, and the context seems to indicate the statement was directed to the body as a whole. Do you see some flaw in that?

Do you understand the Scripture our Lord had said “What sins you forgive are forgiven them, what sins you retain are retained”. How would you interpret this?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Do you understand the Scripture our Lord had said “What sins you forgive are forgiven them, what sins you retain are retained”. How would you interpret this?

You’re answering my question with a question. John 20 doesn’t change the structure of the passage in James 5. Even if John 20 spoke to private confession, I find it rather difficult to construct an argument that that is what’s being referred to in James 5.

 

[churchcamefirst]

You’re answering my question with a question. John 20 doesn’t change the structure of the passage in James 5. Even if John 20 spoke to private confession, I find it rather difficult to construct an argument that that is what’s being referred to in James 5.

I asked how you would interpret this Scripture.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

On the question of how one would interpret this or that verse from Scripture:

It has to be interpreted as the Church interprets it. It cannot be understood apart from the Church’s understanding.

On the question of “confession to the body,” well, confession used to be quite public, before the entire assembly. It was still the bishop or priest that pronounced absolution. HOW the sacraments are administered falls within the disciplinary authority of the Church, with a few caveats (proper matter, proper intent, proper form). The Church has changed HOW She absolves (or rather, how we confess and offer penance), yet She still maintains that She alone, in Her priests, has the objective authority to give absolution. What the Holy One does subjectively, we cannot say, though I doubt He ever rejects a truly contrite cry for Mercy. Again, though, only He can make that call.

 

[mark_a]

Confession must be the 3rd most misunderstood, misrepresented teaching of the Church.

But what if. . …
But what if. . . .
But what if. . .

 

[Jacob_Fenton]

edit: Woops! Sorry, JKirkLVNV. I missed your post which already covered mine.

Now, hold on, guys! a_mirror_dimly may be more correct than you think. In fact, writings of the early church fathers tell us that the sacrament of confession was done in just this way until around the seventh century when monastic private confession became a more popular way of conducting the sacrament. Before that, history tells us that the sacrament was done before the church body.

In other words, every one is right in this situation!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Man was not the one who started this practice. It was the Lord’s idea. Furthermore, I don’t know of any case where a priest refused to “forgive” the sincere confession of a penitent. And even if there was such a case, this would not prevent God from acting according to His mercy and love.

Our assistant priest at our parish has been a priest for over 30 years and he has told me many times of priests in our diocese who, for years, have refused to offer absolution on many occasions.

 

[cazayoux]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. A follow up question: James 5:13-20 seems to be a central passage to the practice of confession, yet the language used (James 5:16a “Therefore, confess your sins to one another”) seems to indicate confession much more as something to be done among the body rather than between one member of the body and one priest. Any thoughts on that?

I wouldn’t see it as an either-or, but a both-and.
We see in John 20:21-23 how sins are to be forgiven by God.
James 5:13-20 doesn’t speak to forgiveness but confession, and shows that there is no issue with confessing your sins to a man.
We are each also told to forgive each other.
“forgive us our sins as we forgive others”
Now just because I forgive someone who sins against me doesn’t mean that God has forgiven them as well. I think John 20:21-23 shows God Himself setting up how sins are forgiven by God.
James 5:13-20 is not in contradiction with John 20:21-23.

James 5:13-20 does make me wonder, though.
Are we to confess all of our sins to each other in a very general way?
Are we to confess a sin to the one we’ve sinned against?
Are we to confess to one another to ask them to help pray for us so that we might turn our actions and hearts back to God? … that disconnected party that might see our sin(s) with a more objective eye and help us. I see this with ‘accountability partners’ in many churches today.
All of the above?

At every mass, we consider our venial sins and ask all of our brothers and sisters to pray for us.

I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts and in my words, In what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; And I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

I believe this is bourne exactly from James 5:13-20.

For mortal sin, we must get absolution through a priest.

michel

 

[BlestOne]

a_mirror_dimly… Hi There! I hope you don’t mind if I take a stab at answering your questions… Everyone has given you the How’s but not exactly the why’s. “Because Jesus said”, while accurate, it not usually enough for people who really want to understand all… so that is where I will focus, OK? God’s plan for us was not as individuals, it was as a body of believers. We have marriage, and reproduction which take more than one person right? God’s plan for us is not an individual “us” but a group “us”. When we sin, it affects not just our relationship with God individually, but as a body of believers.

We are all responsible for helping others to salvation and life. Keeping this in mind, there is very little that we do that doesn’t affect others in some way. Bottom line is that we were made for each other and for worshiping God. So in our psyche we are made to need and want human interaction. When Jesus tells his apostles that they have the responsibility of loosing and binding of our sins, Jesus knows us, we are his people and it is good for us to talk to others and not keep things bottled up. It is also good for us to tell someone our transgressions because it is alot easier to resolve to not doing “it” again if someone else knows right?

Protestants resist the idea of reconciliation because it is hard to admit our weaknesses to another. It is embarrassing! But it is good for us. We have to humble ourselves and admit that we did wrong. But what is really really cool is that priests aren’t just anyone… they don’t judge you or gossip about you… under penalty of punishment, they can’t discuss what you say to them to anyone else. So now, you have someone who won’t tell others and won’t judge you, but will give you sound advice and help you to pray for forgiveness.

As all sacraments, confession has graces… and they are awesome! This is probably the best kept secret of the Catholic Church. When we confess correctly… and with a repentant heart, we can literally feel the grace come over us.

 

[reteeks21]

a_mirror_dimly… Hi There! I hope you don’t mind if I take a stab at answering your questions… Everyone has given you the How’s but not exactly the why’s. “Because Jesus said”, while accurate, it not usually enough for people who really want to understand all… so that is where I will focus, OK? God’s plan for us was not as individuals, it was as a body of believers. We have marriage, and reproduction which take more than one person right? God’s plan for us is not an individual “us” but a group “us”. When we sin, it affects not just our relationship with God individually, but as a body of believers.

We are all responsible for helping others to salvation and life. Keeping this in mind, there is very little that we do that doesn’t affect others in some way. Bottom line is that we were made for each other and for worshiping God. So in our psyche we are made to need and want human interaction. When Jesus tells his apostles that they have the responsibility of loosing and binding of our sins, Jesus knows us, we are his people and it is good for us to talk to others and not keep things bottled up. It is also good for us to tell someone our transgressions because it is alot easier to resolve to not doing “it” again if someone else knows right?

***Protestants resist the idea of reconciliation because it is hard to admit our weaknesses to another. *** It is embarrassing! But it is good for us. We have to humble ourselves and admit that we did wrong. But what is really really cool is that priests aren’t just anyone… they don’t judge you or gossip about you… under penalty of punishment, they can’t discuss what you say to them to anyone else. So now, you have someone who won’t tell others and won’t judge you, but will give you sound advice and help you to pray for forgiveness.

As all sacraments, confession has graces… and they are awesome! This is probably the best kept secret of the Catholic Church. When we confess correctly… and with a repentant heart, we can literally feel the grace come over us.

I have never met a protestant who has ever said anything like this. We do believe in reconciliation; we just don’t believe we have to go to a priest for it. We do confess our sins to one another even if it is embarassing. It’s misleading to suggest otherwise.

 

[beeper]

Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)

We all believe that only God can forgive sins. But Jesus clearly gave his apostles* the authority* to forgive and retain sins, in His name. In light of most Protestant’s understanding of how God forgives, why did Jesus do it this at the time? After all, this followed Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection; in fact, it was one of the first things He did after meeting the disciples after He rose from the dead.

Why don’t most Protestants believe that Jesus gave his people the authority to forgive and retain sins today?

An outside opinion,

There are many reasons why Protestants don’t believe that Jesus gave his disciples the power to forgive sins. Without getting into to much detail here are a few things to think about. First, when Catholics read John 20:22-23 they assume that Jesus is only talking to the 12 apostles. However, the context leaves it open for disciples and apostles both. Secondly, when you read the parallel passage to John 20:22-23, which is Luke 24, you see that Christ is simply telling his disciples to go out and spread the gospel just as He was sent to do. If people would accept the gospel that the disciples would bring, then they would have forgiveness because of what Jesus did on the cross. If they rejected the gospel, then they were still dead in their sins. Also, If one tries to take this passage literally and assumes that the apostles were aware of this authority, then why don’t they exercise it in the New Testament? Wouldn’t you see numerous examples of people having this closed confession with the apostles? Also, Tertullian (2nd century historian) makes numerous historical comments regarding penance, none of which line up with the literal understanding of this verse. For example, Tertullian says, “Voluntary confessions were made in the east and in the west but with widely various acceptance under local systems of discipline”. Also, during this time (2nd century), confession was done publicly and not privately as done so today. So, this idea of private confession thru apostolic inspiration took time to evolve in the church. Another verse that would seem to contradict this authority is 1 John 1:9…which states that “If we confess our sin, he (Christ) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”…That would also include any residual sin as well. Also, there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus…1 Timothy 2:5. Also, if God would have given the power of forgiveness over to this select group of people then He would limit His own omnipotence. Finally, even if this verse is to be taken literally, then why does the RCC add to the requirements in order to be forgiven? For instance, even if I truly ask for forgiveness to the priest, I am still not forgiven at that point. I still must do “works of satisfaction”–prayers to Mary, our Father’s etc. before I am truly and completely forgiven. John 20:23 and 1 John 1:9 never state that these works are necessary for forgiveness to be complete. Thanks for reading. In Christ, Beeper