Protestants and the KJV Bible

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Greetings Don,
I entered this thread because of a standard comment “they were included in a separate section” “they” being the Apocryphal books and would like to determine when this separation begin. Is it the protestant view that the separation was in existence prior to any of these articles? Is there evidence of the separation prior to 1500?

Peace!!!
Who’s Don?

AFAIK, the King James version was the first English Bible adopted by the Church of England to separate the Apocrypha, by section, from the rest of the OT. Again, AFAIK, they were listed in the usual order in the previous translations (Great Bible, Matthews Bible, Bishop’s Bible), used by the CoE.
 
Who’s Don?
no idea:doh2:😊
AFAIK, the King James version was the first English Bible adopted by the Church of England to separate the Apocrypha, by section, from the rest of the OT. Again, AFAIK, they were listed in the usual order in the previous translations (Great Bible, Matthews Bible, Bishop’s Bible), used by the CoE.
Ok thanks.
 
Why do certain Protestant groups insist on only using the King James Version of the Bible? I was told all other newer versions are ‘corrupt’.
There are several reasons for this, but the basic reason is that such groups hold to a very strict “verbal” view of Biblical inspiration, and it seems important to them to know that every word in the Bible as they have it is divinely inspired and inerrant. The mainstream conservative Protestant view that Scripture is “inerrant in the original autographs” seems inadequate to them, because we don’t have the original autographs.

In other words, at the root of this way of thinking is what could be described as a very “Catholic” insight–that it’s not enough to have an inspired Bible if you aren’t confident that the Holy Spirit has preserved it and handed it down to us.

Also, they tend to be suspicious of textual criticism and to believe that the oldest discovered manuscripts–Sinaiticus and Vaticanus—are incorrect and the “majority text” should be trusted. The fact that one of these was found by a German critical scholar in an Orthodox monastery, and the other was found in the Vatican library, doesn’t make them more confident in these manuscripts. The manuscripts manage to combine three of the things such folks fear most: monks, Popes, and German scholars.

Edwin
 
Thiis is a great topic,but I’m hesitant to post after the perfesser and sound like a dweeb, but here goes.
First a bit of historical background. The reason for the KJV was not because the king or COE wanted a new bible. They were satisfied with the Bishop’s Bible, but it was the opposition, mainly the puritans, who wanted it. They didn’t like the slant of the old versions and they argued that a new version would bring more unity. The Throne would never have listened except that there was now (very providentially) a new king from Scotland who was used to dealing with Presbyterians. So, in the interest of unity, he allowed it and also allowed Puritans in the translation companys. So right here these two groups became a check on each other. The result is that the KJV is faithful to the meaning of the words without trying to translate the meaning for you. The reason for the words in italics is to show that they were added and are not from a specific original word. I don’t want someone else to supply the meaning for me which is what the NIV tends to do all to often. For me, it is a develish version and i never recommend it.
Part 2 will be about old texts.🙂
 
Thiis is a great topic,but I’m hesitant to post after the perfesser and sound like a dweeb, but here goes.
First a bit of historical background. The reason for the KJV was not because the king or COE wanted a new bible. They were satisfied with the Bishop’s Bible, but it was the opposition, mainly the puritans, who wanted it. They didn’t like the slant of the old versions and they argued that a new version would bring more unity. The Throne would never have listened except that there was now (very providentially) a new king from Scotland who was used to dealing with Presbyterians. So, in the interest of unity, he allowed it and also allowed Puritans in the translation companys. So right here these two groups became a check on each other. The result is that the KJV is faithful to the meaning of the words without trying to translate the meaning for you. The reason for the words in italics is to show that they were added and are not from a specific original word. I don’t want someone else to supply the meaning for me which is what the NIV tends to do all to often. For me, it is a develish version and i never recommend it.
Part 2 will be about old texts.🙂
You don’t sound like a dweeb at all:). In fact your post was more scholarly than mine.

One nitpick, though–the Puritans actually had their own Bible already as well–the Geneva Bible. But I believe you’re right that it was a compromise intended to create an authorized version that would bring unity. (Given that civil war broke out 30 years later, arguably it didn’t do such a good job of that:eek:)

Linguists and translators would point out that any translation involves interpretation–any time you translate words from one language to another, you have a new set of words. There are no exact equivalences.

That being said, while I wouldn’t call the NIV “devilish,” I do have a lot of problems with the way it takes license at times to slant the translation in directions the translators desire (both in terms of ironing out possible contradictions in the Biblical text and making the text conform to a conservative evangelical theology).

Edwin
 
You don’t sound like a dweeb at all:). In fact your post was more scholarly than mine.

One nitpick, though–the Puritans actually had their own Bible already as well–the Geneva Bible. But I believe you’re right that it was a compromise intended to create an authorized version that would bring unity. (Given that civil war broke out 30 years later, arguably it didn’t do such a good job of that:eek:)

Linguists and translators would point out that any translation involves interpretation–any time you translate words from one language to another, you have a new set of words. There are no exact equivalences.

That being said, while I wouldn’t call the NIV “devilish,” I do have a lot of problems with the way it takes license at times to slant the translation in directions the translators desire (both in terms of ironing out possible contradictions in the Biblical text and making the text conform to a conservative evangelical theology).

Edwin
Yep. The Puritan side of the CoE had high hopes for King James, presenting him with the Millinery Petition, on his way to assume the throne, and then petitioning for changes, discussed at the Hampton Court Conference, which resulted in the commissioning of the KJV.

In general, James was a disappointment to the Puritans. He, like Elizabeth, trod a central road.
 
Edwin is right, we do have a fear of the German scholars. You see, in the 19th c this so called" higher textual criticism" led to the" search for the historical Jesus" . They could then have a “real” Jesus to agree with their liberal agenda. So then when more ancient texts and varients began to be discovered, they leaped at the chance to find things to agree with their agenda. When the Sinaiticus text was discovered, they couldn’t wait to use all the varients. The truth is,the monks had it for hundreds of years, but never used it because of it’s Gnostic leaning.
Edwin also the Vaticanus text. This had been in the Vatican library for hundreds of years, but wisely it was never allowed to be read or opened until i think the 18th c, but then only for limited times and no notes or copies allowed. But you can’t stop progress and soon it was all available to the scholars. And more ancient texts came along such as Westcott and Hort. My question is, why do the things that they leave out often pertain to the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or the Blood? The goal seems to be a less divine savior.

In contrast, the KJV translators mainly used the Textus Receptus compiled by Erasmus, one of the greatest (Catholic) scholars of the time. Erasmus traveled far and wide to collect the best manuscripts. These were mainly texts that had a long pedigree of use by faithful orthodox Christians. Do you see how that maybe preferred to ancient texts of unknown origin?

I believe that despite obvious mistakes, the KJV is still one of the most reliable versions. Also, Pentacostals hold on to it because it was the version used in all the major revivals.

Hope this adds to your understanding. 🙂
 
I believe that despite obvious mistakes, the KJV is still one of the most reliable versions. Also, Pentacostals hold on to it because it was the version used in all the major revivals.
I wouldn’t say that all Pentecostals hold on to the KJV. Many that I know use the a variety of versions, even the NIV. I actually prefer the ESV, even though it has an obvious Reform bent, because the language is far more beautiful and flowing than other more recent translations I’ve read.
 
This comic is not a serious argument, but you might find it a funny peek into the mindset of some of the KJV-only crowd (the comic is ended to be serious, not a parody).

chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp
Not serious at all. I had to do a double take when I read “Another attack came when the Roman Emperor Constantine (the first pope)” and “Note: This dangerous law is still in effect and will be used in any future inquisition”! Shameless and unnecessary.
 
Yep. The Puritan side of the CoE had high hopes for King James, presenting him with the Millinery Petition, on his way to assume the throne, and then petitioning for changes, discussed at the Hampton Court Conference, which resulted in the commissioning of the KJV.

In general, James was a disappointment to the Puritans. He, like Elizabeth, trod a central road.
And this is why I think that if KJV were to be published with its Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha, in Vulgate or “sandwiched” order, it could stand for approval by the Catholic Church for Catholic devotional purposes, without changing a single word.

If such a treasure were to appear, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I would not argue that the KJV doesn’t benefit from modern scholarship. It’s outdated in that respect (which is why I use the RSV and more modern translations) but if we were to talk of the KJV on its own merits, such as literary quality and its adherence to faith and morals, I think it stands the Catholic test. I would pick any hypothetical “imprimatur’ed” KJV over the Douay-Rheims any time.
 
And this is why I think that if KJV were to be published with its Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha, in Vulgate or “sandwiched” order, it could stand for approval by the Catholic Church for Catholic devotional purposes, without changing a single word.

If such a treasure were to appear, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I would not argue that the KJV doesn’t benefit from modern scholarship. It’s outdated in that respect (which is why I use the RSV and more modern translations) but if we were to talk of the KJV on its own merits, such as literary quality and its adherence to faith and morals, I think it stands the Catholic test. I would pick any hypothetical “imprimatur’ed” KJV over the Douay-Rheims any time.
It’s not that hard to find them, in the OP market. Mine is the OU Press edition of 1997. I’m the lector for the Mass today, Lesson is from Wisdom.

I wonder though, if it would be quite so well regarded by the RCC as you suppose.
 
Yep. The Puritan side of the CoE had high hopes for King James, presenting him with the Millinery Petition.
Yep, they wanted everyone to wear those very plain puritan hats, whereas James liked a bit of decoration on his.

😉
 
Yep, they wanted everyone to wear those very plain puritan hats, whereas James liked a bit of decoration on his.

😉
Was wondering who would spot that little gem.

Just because the wife is calling me to come eat is no excuse to post before proofing the spell check. I bear the shame.
 
This comic is not a serious argument, but you might find it a funny peek into the mindset of some of the KJV-only crowd (the comic is ended to be serious, not a parody).

chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp
It is one of the more amusing Chick efforts. Some enterprising fundamentalist left one inside a book in the stacks of the Duke Divinity School library, where my wife (then working in the library as a grad student) found it. I almost kept it for the amusement value, but Chick tracts are so vile I couldn’t stomach keeping the thing around.

I particularly love the panel with the grim guards watching the evil Jesuits translate. How exactly would the guards know whether the Jesuits were “switching out the text for Alexandrian readings” or not?

Edwin
 
It’s not that hard to find them, in the OP market. Mine is the OU Press edition of 1997. I’m the lector for the Mass today, Lesson is from Wisdom.

I wonder though, if it would be quite so well regarded by the RCC as you suppose.
I have no pretensions that it will, sadly. I believe though that it can stand the “no errors in faith and morals” test and theoretically be granted an Nihil Obstat without a single change.

Of course, since its scholarship is 400 years behind and it doesn’t comply with current Roman legislation, it could never be approved for liturgical use. Approval for private devotional use is a different story.

One reason I love the RSV is because it is a direct, official descendant of the King James line.
 
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