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FuzzyBunny116
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What do you mean “in light of God’s own Word?” and RCC Tradition? Our interpretation is from the Magisterum (sp), divinely guarded against error. Who gives you your interpretation?
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flameburns623
Guest
Pentecostals are not ordinarily very bookish but if she’s willing to read–see if you can find a copy of the book “Evangelical Is Not Enough” by Thomas Howard. If it is any consolation to you–my wife reacts much the same way to Anglican services. She considers all the standing/kneeling/sitting/standing again/etcetera to be some sort of really wierd spiritual calisthenics.
Of course–in HER church they just fall on the ground and babble ecstatically. Or run around the church howling with laughter and clapping hands. Or jump backwards over the pews and fall into people’s laps. Etcetera.
I’m not mocking–just comparing. I don’t doubt the sincerity of the folks in the Pentecostal or Charismatic churches but often their objections are not substantive, just pretexts for not doing things differently than they’re comfortable with. There is a real cultural gap between Pentecostals and liturgical worship and you may never be able to convince your friend that any of it makes sense.
Of course–in HER church they just fall on the ground and babble ecstatically. Or run around the church howling with laughter and clapping hands. Or jump backwards over the pews and fall into people’s laps. Etcetera.
I’m not mocking–just comparing. I don’t doubt the sincerity of the folks in the Pentecostal or Charismatic churches but often their objections are not substantive, just pretexts for not doing things differently than they’re comfortable with. There is a real cultural gap between Pentecostals and liturgical worship and you may never be able to convince your friend that any of it makes sense.
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Lillith
Guest
Actually, my husband reacted this way. It was during advent, with the incense flying thru the air. He told me it felt like “playing church”
I flat out told him that I would be nothing else but Catholic, and that my children would be raised Catholic, and if he couldn’t abide, then we would not date anymore. And I meant it, and he knew it.
Today, he is learning and I see a conversion on the horizon, but that is what you must do. Hold your ground. Seems like you know that already…just wanted to affirm for you
I flat out told him that I would be nothing else but Catholic, and that my children would be raised Catholic, and if he couldn’t abide, then we would not date anymore. And I meant it, and he knew it.
Today, he is learning and I see a conversion on the horizon, but that is what you must do. Hold your ground. Seems like you know that already…just wanted to affirm for you
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Atreyu
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No, it’s only your opinion that it is in light of God’s own Word. I could make exactly the same argument about Catholicism: the RC interpretation of Scripture is in light of God’s own Word. There you go, now we’re stuck, aren’t we?
You originally said that the Catholic mass is unbiblical, but you are yet to come up with evidence for this. You even admitted in your last post that it did come from the bible! If your interpretation of Scripture is indeed in light of God’s own Word, then I would have you prove this. I’ll be waiting patiently
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Ric
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The Holy Spirit.
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FuzzyBunny116
Guest
Who does he give it to? You? Baptists? Methodist? Fundamentalists? Anglicans? If the Holy Spirit is giving you all your interpretation of the Bible, how come you disagree?The Holy Spirit.
Me, personally, I rest assured that the Holy Spirit guides the Magisterum (sp). (For various statements of infallibility given to the Apostles, and remember that the Church can trrace her bishops to the Apostles, and that if only the Apostles and none after were to receive these gifts, they would be rather useless, look at these passages- John 16:13, John 14:26, Luke 10:16, 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 John 2:27, Acts 15:28, Mt 28:20, and don’t forget Jesus giving the keys to Peter, telling him whatever he binds on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven. This grants teaching authority-for these decisions to be binding, wouldn’t the church have to be divinely guarded against error?) Afterall, the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth (1 tim 3:15).” I think the only thing all Christians can agree in is there was a fellow named Jesus who lived about 2000 years ago. That doesn’t sound like a very strong foundation to me.
Thats why I reject the notion of the “invisible church,” as opposed to a visible one, and sense the Holy Spirit does guide his Church, in my opinion it only makes sense for a visible Church.
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Atreyu
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Hey Ric.
Funnily enough the Holy Spirit guides me when I interpret Scripture as well. And it just so happens that whenever I interpret Scripture, it agrees entirely with the Catholic Church’s position! Funny that.
Sarcasm aside, don’t you see that you are begging the question? If you believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding you, that’s great. But every single Christian in the world - whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc - believes the same thing. So how can you know, that you get it right? I think that God intended for there to be a way that one could know he has it right, and if you read the writings of the early church fathers you will see that he did this very thing. And it was named the Catholic Church.
Funnily enough the Holy Spirit guides me when I interpret Scripture as well. And it just so happens that whenever I interpret Scripture, it agrees entirely with the Catholic Church’s position! Funny that.
Sarcasm aside, don’t you see that you are begging the question? If you believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding you, that’s great. But every single Christian in the world - whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc - believes the same thing. So how can you know, that you get it right? I think that God intended for there to be a way that one could know he has it right, and if you read the writings of the early church fathers you will see that he did this very thing. And it was named the Catholic Church.
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santaro75
Guest
Well, I think it can be difficult to argue these points because it is true that the scripture is the inerrant word of the almighty God. And the riches in it are abundant.
I think however that the Bible is part of the Church. I don’t think that it is the Church. It is like a text book for a class. You can’t just read the text book, you need a professor. Well I think that the church put the bible together to help preserve its tradition.
Anyway, my friend and I talked about this. And it turns out that she believes that the Bible is the word of God and the sole authority but she has failed to ask questions like
I think however that the Bible is part of the Church. I don’t think that it is the Church. It is like a text book for a class. You can’t just read the text book, you need a professor. Well I think that the church put the bible together to help preserve its tradition.
Anyway, my friend and I talked about this. And it turns out that she believes that the Bible is the word of God and the sole authority but she has failed to ask questions like
- Under whose authority were the bible books compiled? were they inerrant before the church deemed them so? Whose guarantee do we rely on to be assured the bible is inerrant?
- What did the church do in times when 99 percent were illiterate? Who taught the salvation story if the masses couldn’t read it?
- With out the bible would there be a church and the presence of christ?
- With out the church would the Bible have any authority?
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JP2ImissU
Guest
RicGator,
Four women were driving across the country…
Four women were driving across the country. Each one was from a different state: Idaho, Nebraska, Florida and New York.
Shortly after the trip began, the woman from Idaho started pulling potatoes from her bag and throwing them out of the window.
“What the heck are you doing?” demanded the Nebraskan.
We have so many of these darn things in Idaho, I am just sick of looking at them!"
A moment later, the gal from Nebraska began pulling ears of corn from her bag and tossing them from the window.
“What are you doing that for?” asked the gal from Florida.
“We have so many of these things in Nebraska, I am just sick of looking at them!”
Inspired, the gal from Florida opened the car door and pushed the New Yorker out.
Four women were driving across the country…
Four women were driving across the country. Each one was from a different state: Idaho, Nebraska, Florida and New York.
Shortly after the trip began, the woman from Idaho started pulling potatoes from her bag and throwing them out of the window.
“What the heck are you doing?” demanded the Nebraskan.
We have so many of these darn things in Idaho, I am just sick of looking at them!"
A moment later, the gal from Nebraska began pulling ears of corn from her bag and tossing them from the window.
“What are you doing that for?” asked the gal from Florida.
“We have so many of these things in Nebraska, I am just sick of looking at them!”
Inspired, the gal from Florida opened the car door and pushed the New Yorker out.
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Ric
Guest
AMEN! 
RicGator,
Four women were driving across the country…
Four women were driving across the country. Each one was from a different state: Idaho, Nebraska, Florida and New York.
Shortly after the trip began, the woman from Idaho started pulling potatoes from her bag and throwing them out of the window.
“What the heck are you doing?” demanded the Nebraskan.
We have so many of these darn things in Idaho, I am just sick of looking at them!"
A moment later, the gal from Nebraska began pulling ears of corn from her bag and tossing them from the window.
“What are you doing that for?” asked the gal from Florida.
“We have so many of these things in Nebraska, I am just sick of looking at them!”
Inspired, the gal from Florida opened the car door and pushed the New Yorker out.
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santaro75
Guest
If you are all wondering how it all turned out…
we went out again and she told me that there is no way she would ever get involved with a catholic again after what she saw at mass. So i guess that meant it was over for her so I thanked her for dinner stood up and walked away.
I don’t know if that was the right thing to do and it certainly wasn’t what Jesus would do, but I was thinking that… being there was pointless.
we went out again and she told me that there is no way she would ever get involved with a catholic again after what she saw at mass. So i guess that meant it was over for her so I thanked her for dinner stood up and walked away.
I don’t know if that was the right thing to do and it certainly wasn’t what Jesus would do, but I was thinking that… being there was pointless.
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Lillith
Guest
I am glad that happened for you, but sorry for your pain. I believe that you have avoided more pain by this happening though…It is really hard when people of different faiths (who both feel strongly) try to make it work… and it is a fierce battle.
You will meet someone one day who is more compatable…remember to pray and be specific about what you want…I believe when a person prays for love, G-d always answers such a worthy request
((((((Santaro))))))
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I think you did the right thing and not only that but I disagree with you when you say, “it certainly wasn’t what Jesus would do.”
After all didn’t Jesus say this…
Matthew 10:14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.
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BeluvdLily
Guest
I agree with the others that you have done the right thing. Like I said earlier, I was raised Protestant, planning to attend RCIA in the fall. I just don’t understand what was so offensive to her. To me, there may be different ways of worshipping but it is the same God. Did she tell you what her problem was with Mass? I am only so puzzled because I found it beautiful and found nothing offensive in it. When your faith is so important to you it would be hard to reconcile with someone who finds it so appalling. I feel sure there must be a “nice Catholic girl” out there for you!
Amie
Amie
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Curious
Guest
Allow me to poke my head out of Lurkville for a moment. Perhaps I can wax as poetic as reen.
I feel quite similarly to this person you spoke of Dennis. The last 2 or 3 times at Mass were pretty gut-wrenching for me. I was doing just swell until the Eucharist. From the time of kneeling and singing I watch the priest consecrate and “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” echoes terribly in my head, causing me to hum it for hours after I’ve come home from Mass.
The presence of God was neither the popular “still small voice” nor a mighty thunderous voice from heaven, but the sense of many waters. Rushing waters - not overpowering, but steady and unrelenting. The tinkle of the bell signifies the transubstantiation and through the tears that I so desperately try to control, I wonder “Did it happen? Really? I wonder…”. And recently I’ve been entirely unable to even go up with my Catholic brethren and sistren with my arms crossed, because I’m too busy trying not to fall into pieces.
“The body of Christ,” the priest says, making everything worse. “Is it really?” I wonder as I try to turn my mind to other things to regain some control of myself. I have sensed power in those four words. “Am I imagining things?” I’ve wondered. “Is there power in that?”
Oh I certainly know the difference between emotionalism and emotion. There is a difference, you know, with emotion being sometimes a fabulous response to the presence of God. The emotions God gave us to enjoy Him and enjoy each other - I believe my emotions were pure those times. Not emotionalism.
Now off of that for a moment: Is Mass really so complicated? I mean, really. The sitting, standing, kneeling, and responding takes a little practice, but after one is comfortable with that, it reeks of simplicity, of practicality, of mystery and beauty. The Word is read, the Word is reverenced, the psalms are sung, prayers are prayed, God is worshipped, the bread is broken, the blood is drunk. Easy as pie.
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santaro75
Guest
thanks everyone, I know for sure she is not right for me and I for her. I just can’t imagine what turned her off so bad. She said that it was scary and that she felt like a sinner. I think the entire thing just freaked her out and she may be afraid to to tell me exactly what it was about it.
I bet she felt like it was cultish.
I bet she felt like it was cultish.
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scylla
Guest
I know being there at Mass can be a reverberating experience, especially if you are used to standard “praise and worship”.
At my last church we used to do a 20 min or so singing session, with the band and all, then reading and sermon followed by about 20 min of singing which I felt was involved but pretty different from the Mass.
Going to Mass today for me is like standing at the bottom of a large dam with all this pressure and power above me.
I think some people just want to shut out the Mass and get away as for me it is real worship in the real presence of God. He is there but also lack of faith (maybe belief in the real presence) will try and shut it out.
Scylla
At my last church we used to do a 20 min or so singing session, with the band and all, then reading and sermon followed by about 20 min of singing which I felt was involved but pretty different from the Mass.
Going to Mass today for me is like standing at the bottom of a large dam with all this pressure and power above me.
I think some people just want to shut out the Mass and get away as for me it is real worship in the real presence of God. He is there but also lack of faith (maybe belief in the real presence) will try and shut it out.
Scylla
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Ahimsa
Guest
Maybe you should have eased her in a bit, you know, take her to one of those guitar-singing, minimalist Masses for a couple a months, before wowing her with the whole shebang in one fell swoop.
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santaro75
Guest
well i had talked a lot with her about catholic doctrine over the past year. She actually agrees with most of it. Prayer to Mary was a big hang up as well as confession. But she agreed about the Eucharist, and we are saved through Works and Faith and that personal interpretation of the Bible is dangerous.
Those are biggies so i thought maybe God could swing in and take it from there at the Mass. I thought that if she saw the Eucharist that she would be drawn to it.
But quite the opposite happened. I think she was completely repulsed by it.
I have to say though, the first time i went to a protestant service i felt the same way.
Those are biggies so i thought maybe God could swing in and take it from there at the Mass. I thought that if she saw the Eucharist that she would be drawn to it.
But quite the opposite happened. I think she was completely repulsed by it.
I have to say though, the first time i went to a protestant service i felt the same way.
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Shlemele
Guest
I think this is the crux of the whole thing, the church we are raised in plays a huge part in how we see God. I was raised in the Anababtist tradition and the first time I went to a mass it TOTALLY wierded me out. You went to a protestant serviceand it wierded you out. Traditions and scripted services are very wierd if you arn’t used to it and so is speaking in toungs and some of that stuff (to be honest I really don’t feel comfortable around that stuff). The key is that each of you probably thought that the other was going to conform to your point of view. Even though each of you thought you could handle it you both got wierded out. Count your blessings and remain friends because the friendships in faiths like ours can ballance each other out. (please excuse spelling, spell checker is out)
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