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Augustine3
Guest
Besides the differences in Protestant theology and the apocrypha books, what are the reasons why the protestants do not use the Septuagint?
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x1980x
Guest
It’s simply not true that Protestants do not use the Septuagint. I have used it for investigative word study (I have no competency in Hebrew but did study some Greek). Some Protestant bibles include footnotes indicating that the Septuagint says this but the Hebrew (Masoretic Text) says something different. I think the ESV and NIV both do this.
What is true is that Protestants do not consider the apocryphal (Protestant terminology) / deuterocanonical (CC terminology) books to be inspired. Protestants do know about these books and you can get a Bible “With Apocrypha” from a Protestant bookstore in a Protestant translation.
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Bran_Stark
Guest
I don’t think they exactly reject it… most Protestants probably don’t even know it exists.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
I think it comes down to church tradition - **their **church tradition 
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Adamski
Guest
Martin Luther said one reason was because he couldn’t find any original copies in Greek and only in Latin.
But that was disputed with the finding of the book of Tobit in the dead sea scrolls
Another reason was there was no copies bound in a bible before the Latin vulgate of Jerome in the mid 300’s
In 1846 the codex sinacattuis was discovered from the early 300’s blind with 73 books
A third reason is Jerome himself said he was unsure if they belonged but came to a consenses later
Fourth they say they aren’t quoted in the new testament with which is totally false
Matthew 2:16. Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wisdom 11:7–slaying the holy innocents.
Mt 6:19-20. Jesus’ statement about laying up treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11–lay up your treasure. [My Note: Lay up your treasure according to the commandments of the Most High, and it will profit you more than gold.]
Mt 7:12. Jesus’ Golden Rule: “Do unto others…” is the converse of Tobit 4:15-- what you hate, do not do to others.
Mt 7:16, 20. Jesus’ statement, “You will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6–the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Mt. 9:36. The people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is the same as Judith 11:19–sheep without a shepherd.
Mt. 11:25. Jesus’ description, "Lord of heaven and earth is the same as Tobit 7:18–Lord of heaven and earth. [see above]*
Mt. 12:42. Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon, which was recorded and made part of the Deuterocanonical books. [My note: Mt 12:42 Jesus speaks: “The queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.”]
Mt 16:18. Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. [My note: “For thou hast power over life and death; thou dost lead man down to the gates of Hades and back again.”]
Mt. 22:25; Md 12:20; Lk 20:29. The Evangelists refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11, regarding the seven brothers.
Mt 24:15. The ‘desolating sacrilege’ jesus refers to is taken from 1 Mac 1:54 and 2 Mac 8: 17.
Mt. 27:43. If He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wis 2:18.
Mk 4:5, 16-17. Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15. “The children of the ungodly will not put forth many branches; they are unhealthy roots among sheer rock.”]
Mk 9:48. Jesus’ description of hell, where “worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,” references Judith 16:17. [Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; fire and worms he will give to their flesh; they shall weep in pain forever.]*
Lk1:42. Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Lk 1:52. Mary’s Magnificat addressing “the mighty falling from their thrones” and replaced by the “lowly” follows Sirach 10:14.
Lk 2:29. Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9
Lk 13:29. The Lord’s description of men coming from the east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37. “Behold your sons are coming, whom you sent away; they are coming, gathered from east and west.”]
Lk 21:24. Jesus’ words “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
“Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not so many as have fallen because of the tongue] Lk 24:4 and Acts 1:10. Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc 3:26. continuing:
John 5:18. Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59. Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:20
John 10:22. The identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Mac 4:59.
John 10:36. Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration the Father in 1 Maccabees 4:36.
John 15:6. Jesus’ explanation of fruitless branches that are cut down follows Wisdom 4:5, where branches are broken off.
But that was disputed with the finding of the book of Tobit in the dead sea scrolls
Another reason was there was no copies bound in a bible before the Latin vulgate of Jerome in the mid 300’s
In 1846 the codex sinacattuis was discovered from the early 300’s blind with 73 books
A third reason is Jerome himself said he was unsure if they belonged but came to a consenses later
Fourth they say they aren’t quoted in the new testament with which is totally false
Matthew 2:16. Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wisdom 11:7–slaying the holy innocents.
Mt 6:19-20. Jesus’ statement about laying up treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11–lay up your treasure. [My Note: Lay up your treasure according to the commandments of the Most High, and it will profit you more than gold.]
Mt 7:12. Jesus’ Golden Rule: “Do unto others…” is the converse of Tobit 4:15-- what you hate, do not do to others.
Mt 7:16, 20. Jesus’ statement, “You will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6–the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Mt. 9:36. The people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is the same as Judith 11:19–sheep without a shepherd.
Mt. 11:25. Jesus’ description, "Lord of heaven and earth is the same as Tobit 7:18–Lord of heaven and earth. [see above]*
Mt. 12:42. Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon, which was recorded and made part of the Deuterocanonical books. [My note: Mt 12:42 Jesus speaks: “The queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.”]
Mt 16:18. Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. [My note: “For thou hast power over life and death; thou dost lead man down to the gates of Hades and back again.”]
Mt. 22:25; Md 12:20; Lk 20:29. The Evangelists refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11, regarding the seven brothers.
Mt 24:15. The ‘desolating sacrilege’ jesus refers to is taken from 1 Mac 1:54 and 2 Mac 8: 17.
Mt. 27:43. If He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wis 2:18.
Mk 4:5, 16-17. Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15. “The children of the ungodly will not put forth many branches; they are unhealthy roots among sheer rock.”]
Mk 9:48. Jesus’ description of hell, where “worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,” references Judith 16:17. [Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; fire and worms he will give to their flesh; they shall weep in pain forever.]*
Lk1:42. Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Lk 1:52. Mary’s Magnificat addressing “the mighty falling from their thrones” and replaced by the “lowly” follows Sirach 10:14.
Lk 2:29. Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9
Lk 13:29. The Lord’s description of men coming from the east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37. “Behold your sons are coming, whom you sent away; they are coming, gathered from east and west.”]
Lk 21:24. Jesus’ words “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
“Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not so many as have fallen because of the tongue] Lk 24:4 and Acts 1:10. Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc 3:26. continuing:
John 5:18. Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59. Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:20
John 10:22. The identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Mac 4:59.
John 10:36. Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration the Father in 1 Maccabees 4:36.
John 15:6. Jesus’ explanation of fruitless branches that are cut down follows Wisdom 4:5, where branches are broken off.
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Tietjen
Guest
I know that you probably don’t mean to be confrontational; however, the correct term is deuterocanonical. But that aside, Protestant Bibles are based on the Hebrew Canon because Luther felt that excluding the deuterocanonical books better supported his beliefs. The Catholic Church has used the LXX (aka - Spetuagint or Greek Canon) since the Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD). Then, in the 16th century, Luther, reacting to serious abuses and clerical corruption in the Catholic Church, and to his own heretical theological vision (sola scriptura and sola fide), and, frankly, to his own inner demons, removed those books from the canon that lent support to orthodox doctrine, relegating them to an appendix. Removed in this way were books that supported such things as prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45), Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7), intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14), and intercession of angels as intermediaries (Tobit 12:12-15). Ultimately, the “Reformers” decided to ignore the canon determined by the Christian Councils of Hippo and Carthage (and reaffirmed and closed at the Council of Trent).
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Publisher
Guest
Catholics do not use all the books in the LXX. The Orthodox use more of the books of the LXX than the Catholics. The Catholic church defined what books Catholics should use in the canon at Trent…not for other Christian bodies.
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Tietjen
Guest
You are mistaken, respectfully. The canon was laid out at Hippo and Carthage and later (because of the Reformation) reaffirmed at Trent. Please don’t assume that prior to Trent the Catholic Church had no canon. Also, I agree that the Catholic Church was not defining what the canon was for “other Christian bodies.” There was only the Catholic Church during Hippo and Carthage, so this wasn’t an issue.
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jrtrent
Guest
True. One site says, “Books and fragments that are canonical for the Orthodox but not for Roman Catholics: 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, Psalm 151, and the Prayer of Manasseh. In addition, the apocalyptic 2 Esdras (perhaps more happily termed 3 Esdras – see Footnote 2 above) is included in Slavonic Bibles.” mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/sp_books.html
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jrtrent
Guest
Anglicans make use of many books not generally recognized by some Protestants, including some readings from them in the “Table of Lessons for the Christian Year,” the daily Bible reading guide found in the Book of Common Prayer.
The Article 6 from the 39 Articles says, in part,:
And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:
The Third Book of Esdras, The rest of the Book of Esther,
The Fourth Book of Esdras, The Book of Wisdom,
The Book of Tobias, Jesus the Son of Sirach,
The Book of Judith, Baruch the Prophet,
The Song of the Three Children, The Prayer of Manasses,
The Story of Susanna, The First Book of Maccabees,
Of Bel and the Dragon, The Second Book of Maccabees.
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Publisher
Guest
I didn’t ‘assume’…I stated that the Catholic church didn’t set the canon for other Christian bodies. The Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian traditions would disagree with your that “there was only the Catholic church” during Hippo and Carthage.
The church in the time you are discussing, Carthage and Hippo DID have a list of books that all the proto-orthodox/catholic groups used…but did not define those books, that is why we not only have an Orthodox quantity of books that differ from Catholic…Protestants were just following a similar trend…defining for themselves what books to use…Catholics don’t use the same canon as do the Orthodox…Protestants do not use the same canon as Catholics or Orthodox, yet all the various books in all three branches used in the respective volumes of scriptuere were found in the LXX.
Catholics DO NOT use the full “canon” either as found in the LXX.
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benjohnson
Guest
Careful… Luther’s bible had all the same books that a modern Catholic bible does. The removal of several book in the English speaking Protestant world has more to do with the English Bible Societies than anything else.
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Publisher
Guest
Facts and details friend, facts and details, no one wants to know the facts…it’s much better to claim “Luther removed books” or “Protestants removed books that supported Catholic doctrine” than to just stay with the facts. Facts get in the way.
Source, please. Specifically, where does he say this? And, why did he (and the others), therefore, translate and include them?
Jon
Luther nor Lutherans oppose prayer for the dead. Luther’s main complaint about Purgatory is not purgation, which Lutherans affirm, but with the indulgences and private masses thrat grew up around the state/place belief. Additionally, why does Orthodoxy oppose the doctrine of Purgatory?
Why did Orthodoxy not accept the canons from these local synods?
Jon
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
The Catholic Church utilizes neither the text nor the canon of the Septuagint; the Latinate Church never has. However, the Greek Orthodox Church does use both. (I’d also be curious where you are getting your information.)
On this page you can view a chart that compares the various biblical canons of the various ancient churches–you will have to scroll down.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
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Reuben_J
Guest
There was a constant history of faithful people from Paul’s time through the Apostolic and Post Apostolic Church.
Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.
The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.
Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.
The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.
Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.
The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.
Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.
The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm
Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.
The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.
Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.
The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.
Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.
The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.
Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.
The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm
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Eilrahc
Guest
I know this one author named Rene Noorbergen. He wrote “Secrets of the Lost Races”, which is a paranormal book about prehistory. I think he’s an Adventist, but his book follows the Septuagint timeline of Genesis.
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Publisher
Guest
Don’t worry friend, I do not “assume”…the western chruch indeed did NOT use all the books of the LXX…the 'undivided chruch" prior to the Schism did not have a defined set of books in the canon…the “undivided church” did not agree on any set number of books…Trent decided what books were binding on Catholics as scripture…the Orthodox took no notice…neither did the Copts nor the Ethiopian church nor the Slavonic church it would seem.
The Oxford Study Bible contains all the books used as scripture from Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Slavonic church…it is the preferrred study Bible by most Friends in my Meeting…my boss is Episcopalian…his parish prefers the OSB-Expanded Edition as well…seems like Catholics are missing out on several additional books of the OT used by ancient Christian churches…Trent binds Catholics to a set number of books…the Orthodox and Ethiopian traditions uses more books of the LXX than do Cathollics…seems like those Episcopalians I know do so as well…not to mention some Methodist adn Quaker meetings.
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rfournier103
Guest
You’ve got THAT right. With a Protestant at Mass one time when a reading from the book of Wisdom was announced. She had no idea her Bible had fewer books. I had no idea mine had more books. Quite a shock that day. Nothing’s been the same since
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rfournier103
Guest
I love this. Adamski, if it’s okay with you, I cut and pasted this in a word document I keep to help me learn the Faith better. I’m always finding stuff that I find fascinating. Thank you for posting this. Had a debate about this last weekend!
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