Protestants and the Virgin Mary

[jimmy]

flameburns623:

The problem is that most folks understand ‘mother of’ to mean the ‘source of’ or ‘author of’–and Christ does not derive His divinity form His mother. Therefore although Jesus very much is both True Man and True God–Mary is the mother of Christ’s humanity only and not the source of His divinity. Protestants typically are REALLY puzzled that Roman Catholics can’t see this distinction: they perceive the emphasis upon the title 'Mother of God" as a deliberate and not especially oblique maneuver to deify Mary. That the title ‘theotokos’ was adopted in an endeavor to thwart a heresy is understood: what is difficult to grasp is why one would fight one heresy by creating an opening for another.

No Catholic says that Mary is the source of God’s divinity. She is the mother of God though. Being the mother of Jesus Christ that makes her the mother of God. She is still the mother of God in Heaven. That will never stop.

 

[flameburns623]

jimmy:

No Catholic says that Mary is the source of God’s divinity. She is the mother of God though. Being the mother of Jesus Christ that makes her the mother of God. She is still the mother of God in Heaven. That will never stop.

No reasonable person believes that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Mary is the source of God’s divinity. ‘Reasonable’ being an appellation which excludes some fundamentalists such as Jack Chick, who try to infer that this is exactly what Catholic DO teach.

In most cases, when Roman Catholicism has tried to refine theology, they have taken great care not to create an obvious opening for one heresy while refuting another. The term ‘theotokos’ incidentally, is properly translated as ‘God-bearer’ and not as ‘Mother of God’: the former term being far more acceptable than the latter to most Protestants. They don’t see the terms as exactly synonymous: one ‘bears’ Christ in one’s heart, if one is saved. One’s soul ‘bears’ the image of Christ. Etcetera. To speak of the Blessed Virgin Mary as “the” God-bearer is therefore not so much a stretch as to say she is the “Mother of God”. the word “the”, as in "the Theotokos’, would then imply that the BVM bears Christ in a special or unique fashion, without appearng to claim for her more than is her due. In the same fashion, Christ is “the” only-beggotten Son of God, not “a” only-begotten Son. (How someone could confabulate more than one “only-begotten” I don’t know but apparently someone did, and hence we speak of Christ as “the only-begotten”). I am not certain but I think the Eastern Orthodox are somewhat allergic to the term ‘Mother of God’ for the same reason and simply call the BVM the Theotokos. We’ll see: chances are that if I’ve gotten this wrong we’ll see a post by one of our resident EO specialists.

 

[OLDSURFER]

hank:

I do not know of any that do. Mary was the mother of Jesus, and when she died, that was it. Most protestants that I know of do not pray to anyone other than Jesus, God, or the Holy spirit.

I thought there were three persons in one God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[jimmy]

flameburns623:

No reasonable person believes that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Mary is the source of God’s divinity. ‘Reasonable’ being an appellation which excludes some fundamentalists such as Jack Chick, who try to infer that this is exactly what Catholic DO teach.

In most cases, when Roman Catholicism has tried to refine theology, they have taken great care not to create an obvious opening for one heresy while refuting another. The term ‘theotokos’ incidentally, is properly translated as ‘God-bearer’ and not as ‘Mother of God’: the former term being far more acceptable than the latter to most Protestants. They don’t see the terms as exactly synonymous: one ‘bears’ Christ in one’s heart, if one is saved. One’s soul ‘bears’ the image of Christ. Etcetera. To speak of the Blessed Virgin Mary as “the” God-bearer is therefore not so much a stretch as to say she is the “Mother of God”. the word “the”, as in "the Theotokos’, would then imply that the BVM bears Christ in a special or unique fashion, without appearng to claim for her more than is her due. In the same fashion, Christ is “the” only-beggotten Son of God, not “a” only-begotten Son. (How someone could confabulate more than one “only-begotten” I don’t know but apparently someone did, and hence we speak of Christ as “the only-begotten”). I am not certain but I think the Eastern Orthodox are somewhat allergic to the term ‘Mother of God’ for the same reason and simply call the BVM the Theotokos. We’ll see: chances are that if I’ve gotten this wrong we’ll see a post by one of our resident EO specialists.

I see your points. I believe that the EO are fine with the term “mother of God” though.

 

[jimmy]

Mary:

I have met incredibly violent opposition to holding Mary in any sort of esteem. Let alone asking her to intercede for us (many don’t seem to understand it no matter at which angle I approach the subject) many fundamentalists argue that she’s not even to be honoured as a holy woman. One person told me Jesus himself rebuked her, telling her she was no different than anyone else.

From reading the bible, we know that she was called, “Blessed among women,” “chosen”, etc… So I imagine they just choose to ignore what they don’t understand.

Now, even Eastern Orthodox Christians, while loving and honouring Mary as much, if not more, than we do, don’t recognize her as being a perpetual virgin, nor the Immaculate Conception (born without original sin).

That’s what I know!!

The Eastern Orthodox do recognize Mary as a Perpetual Virgin. They do not accept the Immaculate Conception, but they do believe she was sinless.

 

[mayra_hart]

ask protestants why they think it is so wrong to honor the mother of our savior. we should remind them that god honored her above all creatures by making her the mother of his son. in honoring mary, the catholic church is following the example of god himself. mary special privileges were given to her by god, not men.a prayer for mary in spanish: santa maria, madre de dios, conservame un corazon de nino, puro y cristalino como una fuente.

 

[flameburns623]

mayra hart:

ask protestants why they think it is so wrong to honor the mother of our savior. we should remind them that god honored her above all creatures by making her the mother of his son. in honoring mary, the catholic church is following the example of god himself. mary special privileges were given to her by god, not men.a prayer for mary in spanish: santa maria, madre de dios, conservame un corazon de nino, puro y cristalino como una fuente.

God also honored Moses by writing His laws on tablets of stone. However Moses is not deemed to be sinless–in fact he was denied entrance to the Promised Land for Moses’ disobedience. In like manner, although Mary displayed a special faith and trust in God at the Annunciation, and as remarkably courageous at the Crucifixion, she is not seen as sinless but in fact as willfully ignorant at the finding in the Temple; as sinfully presumptuous at the Wedding Feast of Cana; and as wickedly doubtful at least once during Christ’s ministry.

Protestants feel they do honor Mary. They are concerned that the Catholic attempts to honor Mary by multiplying titles and roles for her actually do dishonor both to Mary and to her Creator. Often, they decline to recognize the Roman Catholic distinctions of ‘latria’ and ‘dulia’, and more often they say that the honor rendered Mary crosses the line between the two. Hence my comment in an earlier post that Catholics appear to many Protestants to be well on the way to deifying Mary.

One needs also bear in mind my comment that Protestants assume that neither Mary nor any other departed person has direct knowledge of events here on Earth and therefore are powerless to answer prayers because they are ignorant of such prayers. They are engaged in ceaseless worship and praise of God–but are wholly unaware of the specific requests here on Earth of little Juan or Carmen or Sandra or Bob. And they are not ‘spiritually close’ to people on earth: they are in Heaven, a place and an existence wholly-other from our mortal existence on Earth: they are as distant from us as they are from Hell. Only God possesses the sort of omnipresence which allows Him to be both in Heaven on His throne and yet intimately present with each one of us.

Hope this helps explain to at least some degree how Protestants view Mary and other saints.

 

[mayra_hart]

" holy mary, mother of god" this statement is more of a problem foe evangelicals. they do not want to call mary"the mother of god". some evangelicals think that this statement implies that mary was the mother of god the father and god the holy spirit. but in using this title for mary,catholics are affirming that she is the mother of jesus, and jesus is god. i wish i could have known all of this when my friend question me about praying first to the virgin not god is consider idolatry. prayer to the virgin in spanish : santisima senora, madre de dios;tu eres la mas pura de alma y cuerpo, que vives mas alla de toda pureza, de toda castidad, de toda virginidad;la unica morada de toda la gracia del espiritu santo. bless you all

 

[Pani_Rose]

This is a good way to help Protestants with Blessed Mother

Some it may drive crazy, but others it really helps

The prayer rule of Venerable St. Seraphim of Sarov

St. Seraphim of Sarov taught everyone the following rule of prayer:

“Let any Christian, upon arising from sleep stand before the holy icons, and read the Lord’s Prayer “Our Father” thrice, in honor of the Most-holy Trinity, then the hymn to the Theotokos “ O Theotokos and Virgin-Rejoice, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls… …” three times as well, and finally, the Symbol of Our Faith once. Having completed this rule, let each one attend to the tasks to which he was appointed or to which he is called.

“During work at home or while traveling somewhere, let him quietly read “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.” If there are others in his vicinity while he is working, let him silently repeat “Lord have mercy,” until supper.

“After supper, upon completing his tasks, let him quietly read “Most Holy Theotokos, save me a sinner,” and let him repeat this until falling asleep.

“Going to bed, let any Christian again read the above-mentioned morning rule. Thereafter, let him go to sleep, having protected himself with the sign of the Cross.” Fr. Seraphim said “Keeping this rule, it is possible, to reach Christian perfection, for the three prayers indicated are the foundation of Christianity. The first, as the payer given [to us] by Christ Himself, is the model for all prayers. The second was brought from Heaven by the Archangel to greet the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Our Lord. The Symbol [of our faith] contains in brief all of the salvific dogmas of the Christian Faith.”

To those who for whatever reason could not complete this little rule, Venerable St. Seraphim recommended reading it under whatever circumstance: during lessons, while walking, and even in bed. He based this advise on the words of the Scriptures “whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved…” byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001559

 

[Maccabees]

" holy mary, mother of god" this statement is more of a problem foe evangelicals. they do not want to call mary"the mother of god". some evangelicals think that this statement implies that mary was the mother of god the father and god the holy spirit. but in using this title for mary,catholics are affirming that she is the mother of jesus, and jesus is god. i wish i could have known all of this when my friend question me about praying first to the virgin not god is consider idolatry. prayer to the virgin in spanish : santisima senora, madre de dios;tu eres la mas pura de alma y cuerpo, que vives mas alla de toda pureza, de toda castidad, de toda virginidad;la unica morada de toda la gracia del espiritu santo. bless you all

All the reformers at the Reformation beleived Mary was the Mother of God in fact it was heresy in the early church to deny Mary was mother of God. Protestants give lip service that beleive in the first 7 ecunemical councils but they often contradict themselves when they deny Mary is the Mother of God which was affirmed by the Council fo Chaldean.

 

[NamedforHer]

“Most Holy Theotokos, save me a sinner,”

As a lifelong protestant seriously exploring the Catholic faith, this approach to Mary is in a nutshell the ONE remaining concept giving me concern, and one that I see as the major stumbling block to protestant acceptance of Mariology. Absolutely everything Catholic up to this point makes perfect sense to me, including the simple and profound beauty of ancient prayer practices such as this Prayer Rule. But: Where and how is the line drawn in regard to Mary’s role in our salvation? She cooperated fully in fulfilling her role, she stands as the ultimate example of Christian obedience and devotion to Jesus, and I see heaven as a much broader state perfectly capable of permitting–and encouraging–our communication with the saints in rejoicing, thanking, and supplicating Almighty God. I appreciate fully her priceless role in the salvation story, can easily ask and trust her to pray for me, and hold her in the highest esteem as a Christian example to follow. But she herself cannot and did not save me, even with her cooperation; God carefully chose and blessed her to participate most intimately in HIS plan and ultimate act of salvation.

Can anybody help me with this concept? Why is Mary so often asked to save, protect, us? Are we not supposed to just be asking her to pray for God to do these things for us? Most respectfully, can you see how the “shorthand” seems very close to idolatry? Thanks so much for any insight on this.

 

[twf]

Rev. 5:8 and Rev. 8:3-4 demonstrate that those in heaven (angels and saints) do indeed play a role in offering up our prayers before God. This shows that they are indeed aware of our prayers, and what is going on down below.
Rev. 6:9-11: Here, the martyrs of the Tribulation cry out for vengenance, asking God how long it shall be…they are aware of what is going on below.

We must remember that those in heaven are not limited by the same constrains that we are. They are not limited by time and space in the same sense that we are, and can thus receive all of our requests for intercession. Of course, we must also be sure that those we invoke are indeed in heaven…hence, the modern formal canonization process of saints, which, among other things, requires a carefully scrutinized, verified miracle (supernatural healing, etc) attributed the intercession of that individual. (Ex. Bob Smith asks a holy deceased missionary he knew to pray for him…Bob Smith is suddenly cured of his ‘incurable disease’…).

In relation to our Lady, even Elizabeth venerated her, with the declaration: Who am I that the Mother of my Lord would visit me? and Blessed are you among women!. (Lk 1:42 amd 43…paraphrased).
It is also interesting that St. Luke records the holy Simeon’s prophecy regarding Mary: “…and a sword will pierce your heart also.” (Lk 2:35b). It is obvious that Mary would suffer a mother’s sorrow when her Son was crucified…but that it is specifically mentioned as a prophecy of Simeon is very significant. St. Luke, and holy Simeon, both seem to be aware of the fact that Mary’s role was very unique and special. Her role in the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 seems quite significant as well.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Mary:

I have met incredibly violent opposition to holding Mary in any sort of esteem. Let alone asking her to intercede for us (many don’t seem to understand it no matter at which angle I approach the subject) many fundamentalists argue that she’s not even to be honoured as a holy woman. One person told me Jesus himself rebuked her, telling her she was no different than anyone else.

From reading the bible, we know that she was called, “Blessed among women,” “chosen”, etc… So I imagine they just choose to ignore what they don’t understand.

Now, even Eastern Orthodox Christians, while loving and honouring Mary as much, if not more, than we do, don’t recognize her as being a perpetual virgin, nor the Immaculate Conception (born without original sin).

That’s what I know!!

CORRECTION HERE!
The Holy Orthodox church has and does consider St. Mary as “EVER VIRGIN”, that is, she was a virgin before, during and after the Nativity and prior to her Dormition. She never “knew” man. She is, contrary to the above statement, perpetual virgin. You are correct howerver, in not believing the IC as doctrinal.

StMarkEofE

 

[SPOKENWORD]

mkw:

Strange,

Protestants will ask each other to pray for them (which is wonderful, as we do the same), but they refuse to ask the Mother of our Lord to pray for us.

I am confused about one thing though. When a protestant looses a loved one, they believe they now have an Angel in heaven looking out for them, but they claim Mary cannot do that for us.

How can they believe one-but not the other?

BTW…I meant to say in the above paragraph,SOME protestants, did not mean to imply ALL

Hi MKW. As christians we pray with and for living saints on earth. Every time the word saints is used in scripture it refers to living saints on earth. Thats Why. God bless

 

[dennisknapp]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi MKW. As christians we pray with and for living saints on earth. Every time the word saints is used in scripture it refers to living saints on earth. Thats Why. God bless

Those Saints in Heaven are living. Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

And whether living or dead we are all the body of Christ and therefore need to pray for each other.

I don’t know about you but I need all the prayer I can get!

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths. Amen!

Peace

 

[SPOKENWORD]

dennisknapp:

Those Saints in Heaven are living. Our God is the God of the living, not the dead.

And whether living or dead we are all the body of Christ and therefore need to pray for each other.

I don’t know about you but I need all the prayer I can get!

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths. Amen!

Peace

Yes ,Physically dead we are,spiritually we are alive. God Bless

 

[Kevin_Williams]

So I’m very curious about the “humans turn into angels” doctrine.

Referring to Genesis 2:7 -“the Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.” The term “being” in the Hebrew interpretation is meant as “soul” or “spirit”. When I actually read it in this light, I was stunned. We humans are actually spirits in temples made of flesh.

 

[dennisknapp]

“Most Holy Theotokos, save me a sinner,”

As a lifelong protestant seriously exploring the Catholic faith, this approach to Mary is in a nutshell the ONE remaining concept giving me concern, and one that I see as the major stumbling block to protestant acceptance of Mariology. Absolutely everything Catholic up to this point makes perfect sense to me, including the simple and profound beauty of ancient prayer practices such as this Prayer Rule. But: Where and how is the line drawn in regard to Mary’s role in our salvation? She cooperated fully in fulfilling her role, she stands as the ultimate example of Christian obedience and devotion to Jesus, and I see heaven as a much broader state perfectly capable of permitting–and encouraging–our communication with the saints in rejoicing, thanking, and supplicating Almighty God. I appreciate fully her priceless role in the salvation story, can easily ask and trust her to pray for me, and hold her in the highest esteem as a Christian example to follow. But she herself cannot and did not save me, even with her cooperation; God carefully chose and blessed her to participate most intimately in HIS plan and ultimate act of salvation.

Can anybody help me with this concept? Why is Mary so often asked to save, protect, us? Are we not supposed to just be asking her to pray for God to do these things for us? Most respectfully, can you see how the “shorthand” seems very close to idolatry? Thanks so much for any insight on this.

I understand your concerns because this issue was a concern of mine while I was in the process of entering the Church.

You are correct that Mary can not save us, but she does hold a special and unique place in salvation history–her obedience made it possible. For this reason she is given a high place in Catholic devotion.

Everything attributed to Mary is done so in relation to her Son, who is the Savior of the World.

For me it came down to two things:

1. When dealing with all issues regarding faith, it all comes down to authority. When I came to except the authority of the Church I then trusted her on this issue. Also, I did not see Catholic Dogma regarding Mary to contradict Scripture or the the previous Tradition.
2. As the mother of the Second person of the Trinity according to the flesh, Jesus in accordence with the commandment to honor your father and mother, honored her. It is not outlandish to think that the Alpha and Omega would not do this for his mother as the commandment demands.

So, she is honored in all thing regarding her Son.

Peace

 

[flameburns623]

Pani Rose:

This is a good way to help Protestants with Blessed Mother

Some it may drive crazy, but others it really helps

The prayer rule of Venerable St. Seraphim of Sarov

St. Seraphim of Sarov taught everyone the following rule of prayer:

“Let any Christian, upon arising from sleep stand before the holy icons, and read the Lord’s Prayer “Our Father” thrice, in honor of the Most-holy Trinity, then the hymn to the Theotokos “ O Theotokos and Virgin-Rejoice, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls… …” three times as well, and finally, the Symbol of Our Faith once. Having completed this rule, let each one attend to the tasks to which he was appointed or to which he is called.

“During work at home or while traveling somewhere, let him quietly read “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.” If there are others in his vicinity while he is working, let him silently repeat “Lord have mercy,” until supper.

“After supper, upon completing his tasks, let him quietly read “Most Holy Theotokos, save me a sinner,” and let him repeat this until falling asleep.

“Going to bed, let any Christian again read the above-mentioned morning rule. Thereafter, let him go to sleep, having protected himself with the sign of the Cross.” Fr. Seraphim said “Keeping this rule, it is possible, to reach Christian perfection, for the three prayers indicated are the foundation of Christianity. The first, as the payer given [to us] by Christ Himself, is the model for all prayers. The second was brought from Heaven by the Archangel to greet the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Our Lord. The Symbol [of our faith] contains in brief all of the salvific dogmas of the Christian Faith.”

To those who for whatever reason could not complete this little rule, Venerable St. Seraphim recommended reading it under whatever circumstance: during lessons, while walking, and even in bed. He based this advise on the words of the Scriptures “whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved…” byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=001559

Nice idea but unlikely to work with many Protestants:

1. Prayer for Protestants is not simply a synonym for ‘making a petition to’ but is simultaneously an act of adoration and worship–which it is forbidden to render unto anyone except God Himself.
2. Protestants consider the departed to be unable to participate in the affairs of this life in any fashion–in all likelihood, entirely unaware of it. The departed damned are perpetually contemplating themselves and their own sins, the Redeemed are enraptured in perpetual worship of God, likely as not unaware of one another, let aone of mortal beings. They have no faculty for being aware of earthly matters, hence ‘the dead know nothing at all’ say the Scriptures.
3. Protestants would never petition the Virgin Mary nor any other created being to ‘save’ them’ in a soteriological sense. God alone saves.

Anyone who would engage in the disciplines you suggest has already leapt the chasm between being Protestant and Catholic.

 

[ahimsaman72]

So I’m very curious about the “humans turn into angels” doctrine.

Referring to Genesis 2:7 -“the Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.” The term “being” in the Hebrew interpretation is meant as “soul” or “spirit”. When I actually read it in this light, I was stunned. We humans are actually spirits in temples made of flesh.

Hello Kevin.

The KJV renders the text as “living soul”, not “being”. And throughout the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures, “soul” is referred to not as some spiritual substance in an individual. If you look at Gen. 12:5,13 and 17:14 and 19:20 you will see what I’m talking about here. People are referred to as “souls”.

The clay of the ground was supposedly first and the “breath of life” was blown into his already formed nostrils. That breath of life is “pneuma”. The soul, spirit and the body are one. Duality doesn’t really exist. When these three “parts” of the body are mentioned it is in relation to the whole man.

It’s important to not make certain distinctions regarding such language. It would be better to accept people as “people” and leave it at that.

Welcome to the forums,

Peace…