Z
Zenkai
Guest
No it isn’t. It does not fit the definition of heretical at all.
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Z
Zenkai
Guest
By the way, here’s a quote from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger discussing this very issue:
“The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”
“The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”
T
Tridentinum
Guest
Yes, it is. I explained why.
Z
Zenkai
Guest
Umm, no, it is not. How can something be heretical if it does not fit the definition of heretical? Did you even read the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger?
T
Tridentinum
Guest
Where is that quote from, so I can find the proper context?
Z
Zenkai
Guest
K
Khalid
Guest
Just because “heretic” isn’t the perfect descriptor, doesn’t mean it isn’t the best our limited human language has.
T
Tridentinum
Guest
Protestantism, the belief system, is objectively heretical. It’s ideas are objectively in error, and it falsifies the One True Faith. Then-Cardinal Ratzinger was talking about the current situation of Protestants and their culpability. Modern-day protestants do not have the same culpability as the original heretics who broke from the faith.
Z
Zenkai
Guest
Which means Protestants and Protestantism today, are not heretical.
T
Tridentinum
Guest
I’m sorry but that doesn’t even make sense. Protestantism is objectively in error. It is heresy.
Z
Zenkai
Guest
The current pope said Protestantism today is not a heresy; why do you still think it is?
K
Khalid
Guest
I think what is being said is Protestantism is heresy, but individual men, born to Protestantism and indoctrinated to believe that it is truth are not culpable for their heresy, as conditions required for heresy are not fully met. A Catholic converting to Protestantism still would be a heretic, though, as they have known the fullness of the truth and denied it for false teachings.
Z
Zenkai
Guest
“The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then:** Protestantism today is something different from heresy **in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”
J
jam070406
Guest
“It is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to [Protestant communities], given that they do not accept the theological notion of the Church in the Catholic sense and that they lack elements considered essential to the Catholic Church.” - Pope Benedict XVI
M
Mickey
Guest
A “heretic” is simply one who maintains a “heretical doctrine.” The sincerity and good will of the “heretic” is not in question.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Some Christians (like me) have gone from Catholic to Evangelical, and then when age and wisdom catch up with us, back to Catholic.
But some Christians, are born in the “Christian wilderness”. They have never been in a liturgical, let alone a Catholic church. And when they walk into one, well, let’s face it, it can be kind of scary.
They see statues, stained glass windows. They smell incense. They see an altar, kneelers, people genuflecting, crossing themselves, holy water, crucifixes. Instead of a preacher, they see a priest in a robe.
People aren’t standing around talking (hopefully), they’re in silent prayer. They are required to respond in prayer, creeds. Just not sitting in a pew staring. Let’s face it, for the person born in the Little Church on the Evangelical Prairie, it’s like stepping off a spaceship onto another planet.
A ‘good ole boy’ who puts on his ‘go to meetin’’ clothes on Sunday to ‘hear the preacher’ is coming from a totally different mindset and church culture. Even if the church is not hostile to the Catholic Church, for him, it’s a different world. Generations of conditioning have produced this. His father was ________, his father was a ________.
On the other side of the coin, the first time I walked into an evangelical church, what struck me was nothing was required of me. No order of service, just listening to a preacher…and well, that’s pretty much it.
I think both need to understand there are generations of Christians who have never experienced the other. This is not helped by ***fundamentalists on both sides ***anathamizing the other. So to many Christians in the Catholic Church, Protestant, and evangelical, nothing is known and communication does not exist.
It’s like a science fiction story of two planets who have been at war for so long they no longer remember the reason why or even know what the “enemy” looks like.
So, let’s be careful with throwing the word ‘heresy’ about.
Protestantism is a heresy.
That does not make individual Protestants ‘heretics’.
But some Christians, are born in the “Christian wilderness”. They have never been in a liturgical, let alone a Catholic church. And when they walk into one, well, let’s face it, it can be kind of scary.
They see statues, stained glass windows. They smell incense. They see an altar, kneelers, people genuflecting, crossing themselves, holy water, crucifixes. Instead of a preacher, they see a priest in a robe.
People aren’t standing around talking (hopefully), they’re in silent prayer. They are required to respond in prayer, creeds. Just not sitting in a pew staring. Let’s face it, for the person born in the Little Church on the Evangelical Prairie, it’s like stepping off a spaceship onto another planet.
A ‘good ole boy’ who puts on his ‘go to meetin’’ clothes on Sunday to ‘hear the preacher’ is coming from a totally different mindset and church culture. Even if the church is not hostile to the Catholic Church, for him, it’s a different world. Generations of conditioning have produced this. His father was ________, his father was a ________.
On the other side of the coin, the first time I walked into an evangelical church, what struck me was nothing was required of me. No order of service, just listening to a preacher…and well, that’s pretty much it.
I think both need to understand there are generations of Christians who have never experienced the other. This is not helped by ***fundamentalists on both sides ***anathamizing the other. So to many Christians in the Catholic Church, Protestant, and evangelical, nothing is known and communication does not exist.
It’s like a science fiction story of two planets who have been at war for so long they no longer remember the reason why or even know what the “enemy” looks like.
So, let’s be careful with throwing the word ‘heresy’ about.
Protestantism is a heresy.
That does not make individual Protestants ‘heretics’.
M
Mickey
Guest
There are very few who are “conscious” heretics.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Would you classify Luther or Calvin as conscious heretics?
M
Mickey
Guest
That would be a thread unto itself.
They definitely and consciously rebelled against Holy Tradition…but they also (especially Luther) were trying to reform some very real abuses.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
I wouldn’t even place Luther and Calvin in the same league. Double Predestination? Little much I’d say.
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