Yes, I realize this. I reject the view that the Church is ONLY visible. I see it as both. It’s both what you can see and what you can’t see. Tradition has its place - I don’t reject it totally. I try to look at what Scripture says and what men have said - regardless of affiliation and/or stature.
I have read Russell’s work, “Why I am not a Christian”. It evokes powerful emotions and thoughts. He was after all a philosopher. It’s not the function of a philosopher to be dogmatic, is it? So, I take what philosopher’s say at face value.
There’s nothing wrong with that if one knows one has a well-formed conscience guided by the immutable teachings of Christ passed down through his Church.
The reason the Church claims infallibility isn’t because we consider ourselves infallible but because we believe Christ and the Holy Spirit are infallible. Jesus promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth–the same truth Christ taught and continues to teach through the Church he established. We have to remember that Jesus didn’t establish a book. He established a Church, and the book of the Church, the Bible, belongs to the Church and is the support and witness to the Church.
Why do you believe in total depravity? Is that position really supported by all the writings to come out of the Church since 33 AD, including the Bible?
“It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
I believe Scriptures teach perseverance of the saints, but if I am wrong, then regardless I will have to stand on my works then. I’m unsure 100% about a lot of things, but that doesn’t make me squirm or become terrified.
I would lie so that my three beautiful daughters would have a father come home to them, not to mention my wife
Not me.
I would potentially die if given the option to confess Christ or die. At least I could not hang my head in shame. If, however, I died for a belief in a doctrine, then I would be ashamed at my children losing their father for such a meaningless cause. Good examples Ahimsa!!
Ah yes, and this is usually the lynch pin to the great divide. Catholics and Orthodox believe that Sacred Tradition interprets Scripture. But the reformation teaches that each individual interprets it for themselves. (see my signature below).
But Christ is infallible and His Truth is nevery changing. And, man is not totally depraved but “made in God’s image” and “very good.” Nearly all Christians believe that the Bible is infallible and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Catholic Church when it selected the books to be in the Bible and it continues to inspire the Church through the Magisterium. As the original poster noted, each Protestant either relies on another man (usually their pastor) or themselves to interpret the Bible. In both cases, it becomes obvious why there are 30,000+ denominations and millions of individuals who all believe they have the “truth”.
Of course, I would have to disagree.There’s nothing wrong with that if one knows one has a well-formed conscience guided by the immutable teachings of Christ passed down through his Church.
The reason the Church claims infallibility isn’t because we consider ourselves infallible but because we believe Christ and the Holy Spirit are infallible. Jesus promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth–the same truth Christ taught and continues to teach through the Church he established. We have to remember that Jesus didn’t establish a book. He established a Church, and the book of the Church, the Bible, belongs to the Church and is the support and witness to the Church.
Because all sin has passed from Adam to all human beings - inherently sinful - original sin. Here is Romans 3:9-13 explaining the nature of man:
*“ There is none righteous, no, not one;*
11 *There is none who understands;*
*There is none who seeks after God.*
12 *They have all turned aside;*
*They have together become unprofitable;*
*There is none who does good, no, not one.”***("http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=50#fen-NKJV-27998b")]
13 *“ Their* *throat* *is* *an open* *tomb;*
* With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;*[c](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&version=50#fen-NKJV-27999c)]Mickey said:
If it makes you feel any better - I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura either.
Since I believe that Catholic doctrine is inseparable from Christ as the head of the Church, I would hope that I chose death–even at the risk of leaving a widowed wife and a fatherless child.
I wasn’t feeling bad in the first place.If it makes you feel any better - I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura either.
Peace brother…
First, I believe Christ is infallible and His truth unchanging. Second, I still contend man is totally depraved. “made in God’s image” is ambiguous. We could discuss what this means all day, but it really goes beyond this thread. Third, I don’t believe that one group of people has the only truth. The Jews thought they were the only chosen ones and look what happened. It is clear from the NT that the Gentiles have been given the opportunity for salvation as well.
I submit to God only and the revelation given through various prophets and lastly by Christ Himself. Even if the Catholic Church assembled the Scriptures (they did of course) we would still have the OT Scriptures.
If something borders on the absurd, then I do not follow it. For example, I figure since God put me and my wife together and created my children, then for me to separate from them for whatever reason is not justifiable. If He wanted me to die for my faith then He could do it some other way. It is verses like the one above that I find fault with. Either I misunderstand what it means or I simply question God about it.
Yes, I know - just using a figure of speech…I wasn’t feeling bad in the first place.
Just keep in mind that you are submitting to a god and truth that is of your creation since you are the arbiter of what is true and godly. Such a submission is not to God and Truth but to something that you created and not God.
I understand how you feel. There are hard teachings in the Bible. (see John 6). Personally, I would be honored to offer my life, like the Holy Martyrs, for my belief in Jesus Christ. As I said, I would hope that I had the strength and grace to do so if the situation ever arose. Our life here is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity. As much as I love my wife and child, my love for Jesus must far surpass that. Yes, my wife and I are one through the sacrament of Holy Matrimony and my child is a beautiful gift from God. But God my creator is my life and my love and my purpose for existence. I yearn to be united with my Savior–and there would not be a more blessed way to join Him than to follw the footsteps of the Holy Martyrs of the faith–however unlikely my martyrdom may be.
I don’t know. I’ve never encountered that situation. I could tell you all day long how much of a hero I would be in an emergency situation, but could I do it? would I do it? I won’t know unless I truly experience it. I don’t believe Stephen planned his death. He was in a particular situation and succumbed to it.
How can I leave my loved ones out of it? I’m trying to be modest and give you the worst case scenario, yet you keep prodding. For the most part, I would not die for a belief - hypothetical or real - regardless of whether I had loved ones or not. I would have in the past when I was really fundamentalist. But, at the stage I am at in my Christian life - I would not be a martyr.