Protestants are missing out on the book of Ecclesiasticus (Sirach)

[cajunhillbilly]

I have read Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom of Solomon and find them full of godly wisdom, along with Proverbs

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Yes it would and that’s why us Catholics (Roman and eastern) use the Septuagint. The problem is the King James version only crowd of protestants that are fully behind the Masoretic text. It’s saddening to see some of our brethren use such a spoilt version of the OT instead of the LXX.

In my New American Bible, it uses the Masoretic Text numbering for the Psalms rather than the Septuagint. Does that mean that the NAB uses the MT for its translation?

Perhaps you can clarify something for me. Jerome in his Vulgate translation used which version of the OT?

 

[Andromedus]

True but it’s more complicated than that. The jews redesigned their cannon at the 1st century Council of Jamnia in which they decided that all books that couldn’t be found originally in hebrew needed to be expelled. Clearly such reasoning was false as in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there was present the book of Sirach in Hebrew.

Secondly they also hated the fact that Christians were using the Septuagint to convert jews as the Septuagint points to Christ a Messiah. Look at the comparison between the LXX and Masoretic version of Psalm 22:16 :

“…like a lion they are at my hands and feet.”
(Masoretic)

“…they have pierced my hands and my feet.”
(Septuagint)

The septuagint blatantly points to the crucifixion of Christ hence the Jews revised their scriptures and edited them to come up in the 7th Century with the non- Christ like Masoretic text.

That is just an hypothesis, we don’t know that for sure, it could have been made earlier. In Jamnia they tried to adapt Judaism to the new situation the had to face since they did not have the temple anymore etc. They might have decided what books should be included among the Ketuvim (writings), but as I said, we don’t know for sure. I do agree however that they stopped using the Septuagint because the Christians used it.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes it would and that’s why us Catholics (Roman and eastern) use the Septuagint. The problem is the King James version only crowd of protestants that are fully behind the Masoretic text. It’s saddening to see some of our brethren use such a spoilt version of the OT instead of the LXX.

I looked up Psalm 22:16 under my NKJV Study Bible and it does read:

“…they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

Likewise,the footnote does explain how other OT translations read:

“…like a lion they are at my hands and feet.”

Good to know the NKJV uses the former translation and not the latter.

 

[Nicea325]

That is just an hypothesis, we don’t know that for sure, it could have been made earlier. In Jamnia they tried to adapt Judaism to the new situation the had to face since they did not have the temple anymore etc. They might have decided what books should be included among the Ketuvim (writings), but as I said, we don’t know for sure. I do agree however that they stopped using the Septuagint because the Christians used it.

Likewise,it has been stated by scholars Jamnia really had nothing to do with an OT canon as it has been understood. Moreover, the Jews were discussing if certain books (can’t remember which books) should even be considered “inspired” scripture. I can’t remember which book I read it from at home. I’ll need to find it again and give the reference.

 

[Roy5]

A few points

1. As has been pointed out already, the Protestant Old Testament is the one you will find at your community synagogue.

2. Protestants do not reject what they call the Apocrypha. You will find it included in old Bibles in particular (between the Old and New Testaments), and verses from those books also are found (and used) in liturgies used in various Protestant churches. 

3. I believe I've read that St. Jerome himself preferred that these books be omitted from the official canon.

4. In any case, what is the big deal? Why do Christians spend time on such petty 'gotcha' questions when so many more pressing issues press upon all of us, whatever our church affiliation. It seems to be that same silly tribalism again - our tribe is right and yours is wrong! Christ calls us to love one another and not keep trying to put one another down and score points.

5. God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us work to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[Wandile]

In my New American Bible, it uses the Masoretic Text numbering for the Psalms rather than the Septuagint. Does that mean that the NAB uses the MT for its translation?

Perhaps you can clarify something for me. Jerome in his Vulgate translation used which version of the OT?

I’m not sure about the NAB. You will need to research that yourself. Concerning Jerome, well I have read a number of articles about what he did but it’s very complicated. I’ll provide links that can help though.

That is just an hypothesis, we don’t know that for sure, it could have been made earlier. In Jamnia they tried to adapt Judaism to the new situation the had to face since they did not have the temple anymore etc. They might have decided what books should be included among the Ketuvim (writings), but as I said, we don’t know for sure. I do agree however that they stopped using the Septuagint because the Christians used it.

Concerning the canon at Jamnia, it truly is a hypothesis. We aren’t even sure if the Council actually ever happened. However the most important fact is that sometime in the late 1st century of early 2nd century, the Jews did close their canon to just 24 books ( equal to 39
In modern bibles)

I looked up Psalm 22:16 under my NKJV Study Bible and it does read:

“…they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

Likewise,the footnote does explain how other OT translations read:

“…like a lion they are at my hands and feet.”

Good to know the NKJV uses the former translation and not the latter.

Yeah many Protestant Bibles are adjusting. They rely on the Masoretic text but when it comes to messianic prophecy, they switch to the LXX. A bit paradoxical for the translators to do this but it is what many are doing today.

Likewise,it has been stated by scholars Jamnia really had nothing to do with an OT canon as it has been understood. Moreover, the Jews were discussing if certain books (can’t remember which books) should even be considered “inspired” scripture. I can’t remember which book I read it from at home. I’ll need to find it again and give the reference.

Yeah Jamnia really is only a hypothesis. But we must still acknowledge that there must have been a definitive point in history where the jews did decide their canon.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I looked up Psalm 22:16 under my NKJV Study Bible and it does read:

“…they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

Likewise,the footnote does explain how other OT translations read:

“…like a lion they are at my hands and feet.”

Good to know the NKJV uses the former translation and not the latter.

Just checked my RSV-2CE and it uses “they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

My NAB has “So wasted are my hands and feet” but at verse 17, not 16. And the NABRE has “They have pierced my hands and my feet” – also at verse 17.

 

[Wandile]

A few points

1. As has been pointed out already, the Protestant Old Testament is the one you will find at your community synagogue.

2. Protestants do not reject what they call the Apocrypha. You will find it included in old Bibles in particular (between the Old and New Testaments), and verses from those books also are found (and used) in liturgies used in various Protestant churches. 

3. I believe I've read that St. Jerome himself preferred that these books be omitted from the official canon.

4. In any case, what is the big deal? Why do Christians spend time on such petty 'gotcha' questions when so many more pressing issues press upon all of us, whatever our church affiliation. It seems to be that same silly tribalism again - our tribe is right and yours is wrong! Christ calls us to love one another and not keep trying to put one another down and score points.

5. God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us work to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Concerning point 4 : I think you have misunderstood the nature of this thread. Although we have deviated a bit, the thread is merely about those protestants that do not read the book of Sirach because their bibles don’t contain it. The thread is about what they are missing out in not containing the book of Sirach.

I don’t see any tribalism here.

 

[TrueLight]

When I read Maccabees, I was like wow!

 

[Splagchnizomai]

4. In any case, what is the big deal? Why do Christians spend time on such petty 'gotcha' questions when so many more pressing issues press upon all of us, whatever our church affiliation. It seems to be that same silly tribalism again - our tribe is right and yours is wrong! Christ calls us to love one another and not keep trying to put one another down and score points.

I agree that there are bigger issues, but I don’t think this a “gotcha” one – at least, for me it isn’t (though I may have been snarky about it earlier). I’m curious about which OT the early Christians and Jews used at that time, and how influenced them.

And by knowing this, perhaps it helps us to better understand each other? I’m sure some will use it to create divisions, but we can act as if Christ is among us instead.

 

[Nicea325]

Just checked my RSV-2CE and it uses “they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

My NAB has “So wasted are my hands and feet” but at verse 17, not 16. And the NABRE has “They have pierced my hands and my feet” – also at verse 17.

Really? Wow! How odd?

 

[Wandile]

Just checked my RSV-2CE and it uses “they have pierced my hands and my feet.”

My NAB has “So wasted are my hands and feet” but at verse 17, not 16. And the NABRE has “They have pierced my hands and my feet” – also at verse 17.

Lol depends on the numbering system the translators source is. Research it and see which text it’s translated from.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Lol depends on the numbering system the translators source is. Research it and see which text it’s translated from.

Will do!

I’d forgotten that verse numbering, chapter numbering, etc were relatively recent innovations. It shouldn’t have been so mystifying to me that there are different ways of going about this.

 

[JonNC]

For anyone interested, the Concordia Publishing House (the LCMS publishing company) will have its “The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Addition With Notes”, on the market in Oct. 2012. Luther included them in his translation. Seems we should too.

Thanks to the OP for your encouragement to read Sirach.

Jon

 

[Link0126]

Isn’t there something in Sirach, that says if you have a boy God has blessed you but if you have a girl you are not blessed by God?

Or am I making that up?

 

[domandcarols]

Protestants don’t have Wisdom either.

 

[hn160]

If Protestants or Catholics use online Bibles, they do have access to the Apocrypha. I use Logia and e-Sword and as JonNC stated the LC-MS is coming out with the Aprocypha.
Luther said that Aprocypha was good for reading and he frequently quoted from it in his writings and it is mentioned in the Book of Concord. Luther’s Bible had the Apocrypha.

 

[Hubertus]

Isn’t there something in Sirach, that says if you have a boy God has blessed you but if you have a girl you are not blessed by God?

Or am I making that up?

Is it perhaps chapter 22, verse 3 that you are referring to?

1 The sluggard is like a filthy stone;

everyone hisses at his disgrace.

2 The sluggard is like a lump of dung;

whoever touches it shakes it off the hands.

3 **An undisciplined child is a disgrace to its father;

if it be a daughter, she brings him to poverty**.

4 A thoughtful daughter obtains a husband of her own;

a shameless one is her father’s grief.

5 A hussy shames her father and her husband;

she is despised by both.

(NAB)

I just saw this as I was reading from Sirach earlier and remembered your post.

 

[Link0126]

Is it perhaps chapter 22, verse 3 that you are referring to?

(NAB)

I just saw this as I was reading from Sirach earlier and remembered your post.

That may be it. but I thought it was more specific to having a child…