Protestants; are the Commandments necessary for your salvation?

[VociMike]

Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Well, since you added no commentary of your own, I guess your answer to mean that you believe absolutely no obedience is required on your part for your salvation. Did I guess correctly?

 

[kaycee]

Do you believe that you can lose salvation for not following the Laws?

Course Not.
You dont understand the biblical concept of grace (unmerited favor) and you dont understand Romans 6 in particular.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Well, since you added no commentary of your own, I guess your answer to mean that you believe absolutely no obedience is required on your part for your salvation. Did I guess correctly?

I try to let the Bible speak for itself sir. I am also learning the culture of your forum.
We are to have obedience to the faith, Paul speaks often in Romans of this. But if one supposes that commandement keeping, works, is operative in the dispensation of grace revealed to the Apostle Paul in the middle of Acts, they would be wrong.

 

[VociMike]

I try to let the Bible speak for itself sir.

That’s a bad idea, since the bible cannot speak for itself. That is the main reason there are so many conflicting “bible-only” churches. For example, we Catholics (and Orthodox) think that John 6 clearly speaks for itself, but most of the Protestant world doesn’t see it.

I am also learning the culture of your forum.
We are to have obedience to the faith, Paul speaks often in Romans of this. But if one supposes that commandement keeping, works, is operative in the dispensation of grace revealed to the Apostle Paul in the middle of Acts, they would be wrong.

I’m still not clear on your position. In the normative (usual) case, is obedience necessary for salvation or not?

Oh, and let me say, welcome to the forum!

 

[Rightlydivide]

That’s a bad idea, since the bible cannot speak for itself. That is the main reason there are so many conflicting “bible-only” churches. For example, we Catholics (and Orthodox) think that John 6 clearly speaks for itself, but most of the Protestant world doesn’t see it.

Conflicting opinions abound all over. In those who claim adherence to scripture and tradition, disagreements occur. Disagreements that speak to the fundamental truth of their claims. Do not the Orthodox and Catholic disagree over the Pope?
The key issues that seperate Christians from those who preach a false gospel is their unwillingness to let the Bible be the final guide. They are either Bible correctors, “Greeking” their Bible to promote their preconceived notions, or they lack proper dispensational understanding. They have to rationalize James and Paul and fail to see the audience, one of the keys to rightly dividing the word of truth, for whom the letter was written.

I’m still not clear on your position. In the normative (usual) case, is obedience necessary for salvation or not?

 

[VociMike]

Conflicting opinions abound all over. In those who claim adherence to scripture and tradition, disagreements occur. Disagreements that speak to the fundamental truth of their claims. Do not the Orthodox and Catholic disagree over the Pope?
The key issues that seperate Christians from those who preach a false gospel is their unwillingness to let the Bible be the final guide. They are either Bible correctors, “Greeking” their Bible to promote their preconceived notions, or they lack proper dispensational understanding. They have to rationalize James and Paul and fail to see the audience, one of the keys to rightly dividing the word of truth, for whom the letter was written.

 

[kaycee]

You are baptized in[to] the faith of the Church (cf. CCC 1282). When a child is baptized, his parents and godparents declare his faith (cf. cf. Rite of Baptism for Children, 18.1.b). When an adult is baptized, he is asked and answers, professing his faith: After professing in living faith Christ’s paschal mystery, they come forward immediately to receive that mystery as expressed in the washing with water; upon their professing faith in the Holy Trinity, the Trinity, invoked by the celebrant, acts to number the elect among the adopted children of God and to make them part of the people of God. (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, 31, cf. 15, 28, 30)

Baptism itself is an act of the faith.

Further references:

• Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). (CCC 183)
• Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16). (CCC 1281)

So those who have saving faith must be baptized?

Are those with saving faith who die on the way to their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who die before scheduling their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who postpone their baptism Saved?

 

[VociMike]

So those who have saving faith must be baptized?

Are those with saving faith who die on the way to their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who die before scheduling their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who postpone their baptism Saved?

Kaycee, perhaps you can answer my simple question. In the normative (usual) case, is obedience necessary for salvation?

 

[japhy]

So those who have saving faith must be baptized?

Are those with saving faith who die on the way to their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who die before scheduling their baptism saved?

Are those with saving faith who postpone their baptism Saved?

The Church believes in and accepts both a “Baptism of blood” and a “Baptism by desire” (cf. CCC 1257-1261), as well as normal baptism by water. Here is the relevant excerpt from the CCC (emphasis not mine):

1. The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. (cf. John 3:5) He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. (Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.) Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. (Cf. Mk 16:16.) The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1. The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1. For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1. “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” (GS 22 § 5; cf. LG 16; AG 7.) Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1. As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” (Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.) allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee, perhaps you can answer my simple question. In the normative (usual) case, is obedience necessary for salvation?

Sorry, I asked first.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, I asked first.

I am answering you by first extracting your view on the matter of obedience. But since you insist on “me first”, the answers are

1. Yes, where possible.
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Unknown

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee, perhaps you can answer my simple question. In the normative (usual) case, is obedience necessary for salvation?

No! The only thing necessary is repentance and belief in the death burial and resurection of the Savior for Salvation.

The proof of Salvation is a changed heart that **wants to obey **and grieves at failure and sin.

 

[VociMike]

No! The only thing necessary is repentance and belief in the death burial and resurection of the Savior for Salvation.

The proof of Salvation is a changed heart that **wants to obey **and grieves at failure and sin.

Then why does Jesus say just the opposite?

*John 3:36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
*
And there’s this

*2 Thes 1:7: when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,

8: inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9: They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, *

 

[Mannyfit75]

No! The only thing necessary is repentance and belief in the death burial and resurection of the Savior for Salvation.

The proof of Salvation is a changed heart that **wants to obey **and grieves at failure and sin.

Since you say that they aren’t necessary then what keeps you from sinning? Surely you have** guidance** so you won’t sin.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Actually, doesnt the RCC teach that Baptism saves you initially, not faith?

Absolutely wrong. When someone is baptized in the Trinitarian Formula into the Christian faith, he is initially justified. Baptism is a sacrament (an outward sign of inward grace) instituted by Jesus Christ and He commanded all to be baptized. Getting baptized is a sign of the Christian faith. At baptism you are reborn, i.e. born from above. You become a member of the body of Christ at baptism when you make the profession of faith. If you fail after your baptism and commit mortal sin and repent, you are brought back into the fold by true repentance (i.e. if you are truly sorry for your sins, recognize the gravity of them and try to correct them).

 

[jmcrae]

In response to the question “Is obedience to God necessary?” you answered,

No! The only thing necessary is repentance and belief in the death burial and resurection of the Savior for Salvation.

What is your definition of “repentance?”

(I always thought it was to change one’s behaviour and become obedient to God’s commandments.)

 

[Rightlydivide]

Then why does Jesus say just the opposite?

John 3:36: He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are misunderstanding.

I love God’s law and seek to follow His ways every day. I fail at times and I go to the Lord for forgiveness in sincerety and in truth. What the scriptures DO NOT say is that we obtain salvation through the commandments/law. That is the clear message that I presented from God’s Word a couple of postings up. I delight after the law in the inward man as Paul says…His grace has shined upon me and I love His law…BUT…it is not my means of salvation and if it is yours…you have made the cross of Christ of none effect.

Galatians 5:4 KJV 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ah, so you do acknowledge the commandments as a part of salvations since they do indeed tell us what is right and what is sinful… I follow the commandments for the mere reason I loved Jesus Christ. That is why I follow…and try to obey them… if I fail… I repent again and start anew…

 

[VociMike]

VociMike;2008860:

Then why does Jesus say just the opposite?

Prior to the revelation of the mystery. There has been no death of the testator, Hebrews 9.

Who does not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus? The church of God? No. Israel, the unbelieving Jew who do not see the “end of the law” in verse 4. When you pull a verse out of its context, instead of letting the Bible interpret the Bible, you can construct any manner of meaning. Lets see if Paul speak of works salvation in Romans, the tenth chapter where he expands on what he means about “obey the gospel”.

I’m impressed by the extent to which you and your doctrines will go to deny the necessity of obedience as clearly proclaimed in scripture. It is every bit as acrobatic a performance as the Protestant denial of John 6. This denial of the need for obedience is, I am convinced, the very key to the nature of modern Protestantism.

 

[japhy]

When you pull a verse out of its context, instead of letting the Bible interpret the Bible, you can construct any manner of meaning. Lets see if Paul speak of works salvation in Romans, the tenth chapter where he expands on what he means about “obey the gospel”.

Let’s see what Jesus says when he talks about obeying the gospel:

• And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:17)
• “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Matt 28:19-20)
• “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (John 13:34)
• “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. … He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:15,21)
• “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. This I command you, to love one another.” (John 15:10-17)

If I don’t keep the commandments that Jesus has given me through the Church, what happens? Do I go to heaven, just not as a “friend” of Jesus? Does he shun me in heaven?

As for Paul, in Romans 2:6-10 he writes:

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

What’s this “doing good” business?! Isn’t faith alone good enough?