Protestants: Are You Okay With Division?

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Richard_White

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My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
 
Richard_White said:
My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
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Hey, what are you going to do, force them to stop?

Seriously. I’m asking this sincerely. Do you think it’s okay to forcibly coerce people who are baptized Catholic as infants and later decide they don’t want to be Catholic anymore?

If you want my honest answer, here it is. The Catholic Church has a long history of opposing the coercion of converts from another faith into the Church. But it also has a long history of looking at these people who divide and separate (as you have) and then forcing them to stop. How exactly do you think this was prevented for as long as it was? (Setting aside the fact that the existence of Eastern, Coptic, and Oriental Orthodoxy effectively destroys your narrative of “none existed who were not united to the Church of Rome for 1500 years”…) Pretty much through the use of force, is the answer. That is how heresy was wiped out on numerous occasions. And I’d say the success of the Reformation is great news. The Catholic Church tried extra hard to coerce the Reformers out of existence and it did not work. If it had, the Catholic Church would have continued to be a lot more coercive than it is now.

The Catholic Church behaves in a less coercive manner because of how well the Protestant Reformers stood up to its use of force. We can all be glad of that. Some of us are choosing to ignore that fact, but it is something that we can all be glad of.
 
KnitNut said:
:ehh: Are you sure about that? (See also, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox.)
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He’s posted in this forum over 1300 times. He knows it’s not accurate, but so far seems to be fairly comfortable with this particular type of unforced error.

Now look at what happens. We talk about this easily-excluded inaccuracy instead of the thing he was trying to talk about. It’s totally unnecessary.
 
badnewsbarrett said:
He’s posted in this forum over 1300 times. He knows it’s not accurate, but so far seems to be fairly comfortable with this particular type of unforced error.

Now look at what happens. We talk about this easily-excluded inaccuracy instead of the thing he was trying to talk about. It’s totally unnecessary.
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Yes, I would prefer that we please not talk about this, as it has nothing to do with my original post. Yes, there were the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East in existence then, so please forgive my inaccuracy there, I wasn’t really thinking about that. But, please don’t get me started about the divisions that these three groups have with the Catholic Church: that is for another time and my original post is not in regard to you.
 
badnewsbarrett said:
Hey, what are you going to do, force them to stop?

Seriously. I’m asking this sincerely. Do you think it’s okay to forcibly coerce people who are baptized Catholic as infants and later decide they don’t want to be Catholic anymore?

If you want my honest answer, here it is. The Catholic Church has a long history of opposing the coercion of converts from another faith into the Church. But it also has a long history of looking at these people who divide and separate (as you have) and then forcing them to stop. How exactly do you think this was prevented for as long as it was? (Setting aside the fact that the existence of Eastern, Coptic, and Oriental Orthodoxy effectively destroys your narrative of “none existed who were not united to the Church of Rome for 1500 years”…) Pretty much through the use of force, is the answer. That is how heresy was wiped out on numerous occasions. And I’d say the success of the Reformation is great news. The Catholic Church tried extra hard to coerce the Reformers out of existence and it did not work. If it had, the Catholic Church would have continued to be a lot more coercive than it is now.

The Catholic Church behaves in a less coercive manner because of how well the Protestant Reformers stood up to its use of force. We can all be glad of that. Some of us are choosing to ignore that fact, but it is something that we can all be glad of.
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As for you, you either did not understand my question or just didn’t feel like responding to it. I never said anything about coercion or anything. I am asking about your personal feeling about whether you actually think divisions in Christianity are okay or if you think something should be done about it. Please answer appropriately without animosity.

Thank you! 🙂
 
Richard_White said:
My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
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Not at all. I lament divisions in the body of Christ.

On the other hand, I am not willing to compromise one iota of what I hold to be truth. And I wouldn’t demand any such thing of any other denomination. Abandoning our conscience for the sake of unity does us all a great disservice.

And the old lie that there was only one Christian church until 1500 has been refuted over and over. I wouldn’t use it anymore,
 
SalusaSecondus said:
Not at all. I lament divisions in the body of Christ.

On the other hand, I am not willing to compromise one iota of what I hold to be truth. And I wouldn’t demand any such thing of any other denomination. Abandoning our conscience for the sake of unity does us all a great disservice.

And the old lie that there was only one Christian church until 1500 has been refuted over and over. I wouldn’t use it anymore,
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Thank you for your civilized response! Now, I ask you, how do you personally know what is Truth?
 
SalusaSecondus said:
The truth is Jesus Christ, he even says so. He is the way the truth and the life.
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Yes, this is correct! Jesus is the only Master, Way and Truth and Life! Amen. Now, how are you made known of the Word of Jesus and His life, teachings, and Paschal Mystery?
 
Richard_White said:
Yes, this is correct! Jesus is the only Master, Way and Truth and Life! Amen. Now, how are you made known of the Word of Jesus and His life, teachings, and Paschal Mystery?
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Through the scriptures and through the sacraments.
 
SalusaSecondus said:
Through the scriptures and through the sacraments.
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Yes, exactly, thank you for continuing this conversation with me! Now, who determined which books in the Scriptures were being divinely inspired and compiled them into the Bible?
 
Richard_White said:
Yes, exactly, thank you for continuing this conversation with me! Now, who determined which books in the Scriptures were being divinely inspired and compiled them into the Bible?
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God determined what would be scripture since he created them, and the united church recognized them.
 
SalusaSecondus said:
God determined what would be scripture since he created them, and the united church recognized them.
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Yes, God created Scripture, but who was able to and had the authority to figure out which books He intended to be Scripture (i.e., the ones He divinely inspired) and which books He did not?
 
Richard_White said:
Yes, God created Scripture, but who was able to and had the authority to figure out which books He intended to be Scripture (i.e., the ones He divinely inspired) and which books He did not?
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The united church recognized scripture. But many knew what it was before the church made any formal proclamations. That’s how Athanasius produced a list of the canon, decades before any pope or council declared it to be so. No papal or conciliar authority necessary.
 
SalusaSecondus said:
The united church recognized scripture. But many knew what it was before the church made any formal proclamations. That’s how Athanasius produced a list of the canon, decades before any pope or council declared it to be so. No papal or conciliar authority necessary.
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Please read this article from Catholic Answers to clear up what you are saying. Please actually read the whole thing and then let me know what you think! Don’t forget!

catholic.com/quickquestions/was-the-canon-of-scripture-determined-before-the-church-councils-that-decided-it
 
Richard_White said:
Yes, exactly, thank you for continuing this conversation with me! Now, who determined which books in the Scriptures were being divinely inspired and compiled them into the Bible?
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The Roman canon is not the sole, “valid” canon of Christianity. Even within Catholicism, the various particular Churches have differing bibles. Early Christians wrote, edited, and compiled the various books. Different Churches have recognized different lists of books within their published sacred canons. It’s not exactly the “smoking gun” for the Roman Catholic organization as supreme head of Christianity.

I’m not sure how this kind of “gotcha” questioning angle furthers the cause of the RC church. Personally, I feel it weakens it, because it tries to take messy, muddy facts and sanitize them to fit a clean, simple narrative…usually at the expense of the Eastern churches, both Catholic and otherwise. Christians “are” where they are because of their faith. I don’t think anyone would say that division, of itself, is a “good”. However, the underlying reasons for division are complex…and the resulting church memberships are likewise complex, multifaceted, and personal decisions. The posters in other threads (eg, “Why Are You Not Catholic”, a very active thread at the moment) eloquently offer varied and personal responses to this matter.
 
badnewsbarrett said:
Hey, what are you going to do, force them to stop?

Seriously. I’m asking this sincerely. Do you think it’s okay to forcibly coerce people who are baptized Catholic as infants and later decide they don’t want to be Catholic anymore?

If you want my honest answer, here it is. The Catholic Church has a long history of opposing the coercion of converts from another faith into the Church. But it also has a long history of looking at these people who divide and separate (as you have) and then forcing them to stop. How exactly do you think this was prevented for as long as it was? (Setting aside the fact that the existence of Eastern, Coptic, and Oriental Orthodoxy effectively destroys your narrative of “none existed who were not united to the Church of Rome for 1500 years”…) Pretty much through the use of force, is the answer. That is how heresy was wiped out on numerous occasions. And I’d say the success of the Reformation is great news. The Catholic Church tried extra hard to coerce the Reformers out of existence and it did not work. If it had, the Catholic Church would have continued to be a lot more coercive than it is now.

The Catholic Church behaves in a less coercive manner because of how well the Protestant Reformers stood up to its use of force. We can all be glad of that. Some of us are choosing to ignore that fact, but it is something that we can all be glad of.
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Yes I would second this. The current behaviour of the Catholic church doesn’t provide much of an indication of past behaviour. Five centuries ago; the RCC still had significant land holdings, the right to control the marriages and divorces of everyone from royalty down to the peasantry, not to mention an army and fleet of its own. The protestant reformation broke this stranglehold.
 
Richard_White said:
Please read this article from Catholic Answers to clear up what you are saying. Please actually read the whole thing and then let me know what you think! Don’t forget!

catholic.com/quickquestions/was-the-canon-of-scripture-determined-before-the-church-councils-that-decided-it
Click to expand...
The article doesn’t explain how Athanasius knew what was scripture decades before a pope or council declared it to be so. Many early christian communities had scripture, and they knew what it was sans a pope or council.
 
Richard_White said:
My dear friends in Christ,

I ask this not from animosity or hatred, but with a true desire of knowing the true reasons for the continual Protestant separation from the God’s Holy Catholic Church. Please answer with dignity and respect towards me and everyone.

Protestants, do you really think it is okay that there is so much separation within the Christian faith? Do you really think that it is okay that there are thousands of Protestant denominations, some that are split off for the smallest things? Do you really think that it is okay for Protestants to be split off from the Catholic Church, which was the ONLY Christian Church from the time of Jesus until the 1500s and the heresies of a few individuals, who changed doctrine and started their own denominations?

And do you really think that it is okay that there is such division among Christians for a refusal to believe in the Truth, even when it is presented right to certain people and even with the Prayer of Jesus from the Gospel According to Saint John: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17: 20-21, emphasis mine).

Please answer me honestly, I ask you all humbly in Christ,

Ryan

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
Click to expand...
I don’t believe there is really that much division BETWEEN churches… any more than there is division between the individuals WITHIN each church! Makes me think of an ANOVA in statistics.

Just talk to the people within your average church and you soon realise congregants often believe things that are not the ‘official’ line. For instance - how many Catholics accept the church’s views on contraception? I mean REALLY accept the official view - enough to actually practice it? Very few from what I’ve heard.

When I watched an RC mass for the first time I was surprised by how many similarities there were with some protestant services. In fact I could agree with 95% of the content.

People spend too much time on the differences. I just filter out what I don’t believe when I go to church - I’ve accepted I will never find a church that fits my views 100%!
 
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