Protestants believe in infalliblity of their leaders.

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am a Charismatic/Pentacostal Evangelical Christian and I do not believe that.

So by the silence I take it you are not a “Valid Protestant” because you have no founder to adhere to authority but your own infallible teachings, am I correct?

Or are you going to claim Jesus is your founder of your faith, when your faith does not appear on the earth some 1800 years later after the resurrection? Can you name the founder of the Pentacostal movement and when it began, I have you starting in the 1940’s there about? And do you accept your Pentecostal founders teachings are without “error”?

Peace be with you

 

[Cat]

I grew up evangelical Protestant, in the Conference Baptist denomination. During my first 47 years, I was part of several evangelical Protestant denominations, and I was a good and faithful servant, extremely involved in church life.

I absolutely believed that my denomination was totally correct in all its doctrines.

I knew that my pastors and teachers were sinful even as I was sinful (they told the congregation that they were just sinful people), but I thought that the teachings that they were presenting to us were thoroughly vetted and proven.

The reason I believed they had the “correct” version of Christianity is that they claimed that everything they taught was Biblical. We learned a systematic theology straight out of the Bible–at least, that’s what I thought at the time.

I believed in the absolute truth of basic evangelical Protestantism…until we were thrown out of our Evangelical Free Church.

It was only then that the whole thing sheered apart like a big piece of mica. I could literally see the layers shattering and breaking all around me.

I realized that I could never, ever trust the “church” that I had trusted all my life. They had used the Bible to justify cruel and capricious treatment of me, my husband, and my children, and as a student of the Bible myself, I KNEW that the way they had treated us was NOT Biblical and was NOT Christian. Someone was lying, and it wasn’t me.

I stopped believing in the Bible as the sole authority of a Christian because I had come face to face with the evil that this doctrine fosters. The Bible can be twisted and used to justify any behavior.

I think that, like me, in the last decade or so, a lot of evangelical Christians have experienced something “bad” that has caused them to doubt the “infallibility” of their denomination’s doctrines and leaders. The whole incident with Ted Haggard was quite horrific and upsetting and really made a lot of evangelicals step back and take a cold, hard look at what they believe. Other evangelical leaders have fallen hard, too, although many never make the nightly news as Pastor Haggard did.

My husband and I still receive the denominational magazine from the Christian and Missionary Alliance, an evangelical Protestant denomination. In the last issue, an extremely moving and graphic apology was published. For many years, missionary children were taken from their parents at age 6 and housed many hundreds or even thousands of miles away in boarding schools. Often the house-parents were not trained, and there were incidents of abuse (sexual and otherwise), cruelty, excessive discipline, etc.

Here is a link to that letter of apology: alliancelife.org/article.php?id=379

The letter makes it clear that these children were and still are DAMAGED by the treatment they received in these boarding schools.

I personally recommend that all Catholics read the letter and remember that it is not just the Catholic Church that had/has some really bad people who mistreat (ed) innocent children.

My point is that when bad things happen in evangelical churches, people question the idea of “infallibility.” And bad things seem to be happening more and more lately, and more and more evangelicals seem to be rejecting the idea of a “perfect” church. No wonder it’s hard to get them to take a look at Catholicism–when they see their own church fall, they can’t imagine that a church that they have always seen as a den of idolatry and drunkenness would be Christ’s True Church. No wonder people decide to just trust themselves and their own personal “Jesus” only.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Gabriel of 12

Wait a minute; hold on there! Do you believe JohnWesley’s teachings in Methodism to be “True and without error”? if you follow his teachings then you subscribe to his infallible teachings and Methodology of Christianity, If you do not believe in his teachings or Methodology of Christianity them why do subscribe to John Wesley’s Methodism of Christianity?

Wesley didn’t “invent” any new teachings - and died an Anglican priest in good standing. He asked people to revisit their faith and to emphasis personal holiness and sacramental living.

Wesley was a human being and fallible. He believed that the Articles of Religion and the Creeds (Nicene and Apostles’) should be followed and embraced. The “Method” of Methodism wasn’t doctrinal, it was more like the adoption of a rule similar to ordered life.

To say Wesley was without error is ridiculous. All you have to do is look at his marriage to know that. He saw how the Church was not practicing it’s own faith and sought to draw people back to it, methodically and with intention.

 

[Zooey]

Any one who holds the belief’s of their founder believes their founder to be infallible. For example; Jesus founded the Chair of Peter and the Catholic church.

Name the founder of your religion, faith or denomination and their you have your infallible teacher;

[sign1]
Piffle.
Pshaw.
Pfui!
[/sign1]

You don’t know very many Methodists, laddie.
I go to a committee meeting, and then I come home and unwind by herding cats.
A pure joy & delight after a Methodist committee meeting.
All of which is nothing in comparison to a :slapfight:“conversation” between the Wesley Brothers. Ye didnae want to sit in on such a thing without npatrol: :hammering: and a couple of antiaircraft guns…

At least in my tradition, we believe that we are guided by the work and discernment of the Holy Spirit, not the leader who first created their teachings. In the case of Methodism, this was the Articles of Religion of the Church of England, not John Wesley.

Wesley didn’t “invent” any new teachings - and died an Anglican priest in good standing. He asked people to revisit their faith and to emphasis personal holiness and sacramental living.

Wesley was a human being and fallible. He believed that the Articles of Religion and the Creeds (Nicene and Apostles’) should be followed and embraced. The “Method” of Methodism wasn’t doctrinal, it was more like the adoption of a rule similar to ordered life.

To say Wesley was without error is ridiculous. All you have to do is look at his marriage to know that. He saw how the Church was not practicing it’s own faith and sought to draw people back to it, methodically and with intention.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

[sign1]
Piffle.
Pshaw.
Pfui!
[/sign1]

You don’t know very many Methodists, laddie.
I go to a committee meeting, and then I come home and unwind by herding cats.
A pure joy & delight after a Methodist committee meeting.
All of which is nothing in comparison to a :slapfight:“conversation” between the Wesley Brothers. Ye didnae want to sit in on such a thing without npatrol: :hammering: and a couple of antiaircraft guns…

I used to be a Methodist.

Now I am a Catholic.

Jesus only founded one Church.

Why belong to another Church?

 

[pnewton]

I grew up evangelical Protestant, in the Conference Baptist denomination. During my first 47 years, I was part of several evangelical Protestant denominations, and I was a good and faithful servant, extremely involved in church life…I believed in the absolute truth of basic evangelical Protestantism…until we were thrown out of our Evangelical Free Church.

What a coincidence. That was my first and last denominations too. Most people here do not realize how often Protestants drift from denomination to denomination, whenever their personal understanding of Scripture changes or their pastors’ views become too far outside of what they believe. Well. Cat, since I missed you as a Baptist and E. Free, it is good to bump into you here.

No, putting a pastor on a pedestal is no more common among Protestants than Catholics. Also, seldom do any denominational leaders think they invent something new. So that idea is really just a straw man. The one exception is when it comes to end times. There are a few who think they have it all figured out.

 

[hope_7]

It is also just as amazing to note that catholics drift from one catholic church to another catholic church for many of the same reasons that the protestants do when they leave one church and go to another.

What is really important is that people learn to listen to and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit. We have put so much emphises on submitting to mans authority in the name of God that we have come to the place where we will obey man rather then God. What is wrong with us? Is not the example that the apostles gave us and even Jesus good enough that we do not heed to this.

When we balk at this authority of the scriptures trying to explain it away by saying its only someones interpretation and use it to promote the authority of the pope and the traditions of the church. Isnt this insanity? Did not the Holy Spirit say He would teach us. I know that we are to guard against ones own private intrepetation. If we do not have the scriptures then on what do we have to base our faith. How can we possibly know when we are on track without the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts 17: 10-11 when Paul preached they would check the scriptures to see if the things that Paul preached were true. The scriptures say that thease people were more noble. I would think that Paul’s authority would outstrip the authority of any one in the church today. So why cant we accept the authority of the scriptures and do our best to submit ourselves to it. And when we come to the place where we are in a position to choose weather we obey God’s word and the leadings of His Holy Spirit or follow some church tradition or even one who is a pastor or even a pope. Which way will you go. Will you follow God or will you follow a man.

I am not advocating rebelling against spiritual authority, against God’s ministers or His church. But I am against it when it goes against scripture and obeying the Holy Spirit.

I would encourage you to read 1 Kings chapter 13

I would also encourage you since martan luther is mentioned so many times to read his 95 theases that he posted on the church door and see what they actually say. I would also encourage you to read about him from a perspective that is not roman chatholic. He was not perfect but God did use Him. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have someone post martin luthers theses that he is so famous for and to take each one and discuss them to see why He really left the church.
hope

 

[Hisalone]

So by the silence I take it you are not a “Valid Protestant” because you have no founder to adhere to authority but your own infallible teachings, am I correct?

Or are you going to claim Jesus is your founder of your faith, when your faith does not appear on the earth some 1800 years later after the resurrection? Can you name the founder of the Pentacostal movement and when it began, I have you starting in the 1940’s there about? And do you accept your Pentecostal founders teachings are without “error”?

Peace be with you

Gabriel as any true Christian the authority I turn to is the scriptures. Are the scripture infallible, yes.
Do they need a higher authority to interpret them, No.

 

[csx333]

As a life-time protestant who hungers greatly to become a Roman Catholic, and believes what the Church teaches, and is the True Church Jesus created (waiting for my wife to be convinced), I mostly agree.

Most protestants are Bible-ignorant and too lazy to study it. Most of the people who begin a new study will drop out quickly. They don’t believe the Bible agrees with their beliefs.

They would rather ask the pastor, and in many churches the answer they get is his opinion. I find the pastors in the Lutheran Church- Mo Synod are better educated in this respect. My last two pastors were strong in being Holy Spirit -filled. Oh that they were Priests!

Pray for me before our Blessed Mother that she wil intercede with her Son and bring my lovely wife to the True Church.

 

[Peter_J]

It is also just as amazing to note that catholics drift from one catholic church to another catholic church for many of the same reasons that the protestants do when they leave one church and go to another.

Bad analogy.

There’s a big difference between leaving one church (or parish) and going to one that is in full communion with the first one, vs. switching between two churches that aren’t in full communion.

(Plus, even in cases where two Protestant denominations are in “full communion” with each other – e.g. the ELCA and the ECUSA – it is questionable whether they mean “full communion” in the same sense that Catholics use the term. But that’s a whole other can of worms.)

 

[Peter_J]

Gabriel as any true Christian the authority I turn to is the scriptures. Are the scripture infallible, yes.
Do they need a higher authority to interpret them, No.

Whoever said that they need a higher authority to interpret them?

 

[michaelcollins]

I am a Charismatic/Pentacostal Evangelical Christian and I do not believe that.

Generalisations come with error based upon the one who the generalisation does not apply to, it does not mean the generalisations are not correct it means there is an exception.

 

[michaelcollins]

It is also just as amazing to note that catholics drift from one catholic church to another catholic church for many of the same reasons that the protestants do when they leave one church and go to another.

What is really important is that people learn to listen to and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit. We have put so much emphises on submitting to mans authority in the name of God that we have come to the place where we will obey man rather then God. What is wrong with us? Is not the example that the apostles gave us and even Jesus good enough that we do not heed to this.

When we balk at this authority of the scriptures trying to explain it away by saying its only someones interpretation and use it to promote the authority of the pope and the traditions of the church. Isnt this insanity? Did not the Holy Spirit say He would teach us. I know that we are to guard against ones own private intrepetation. If we do not have the scriptures then on what do we have to base our faith. How can we possibly know when we are on track without the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Acts 17: 10-11 when Paul preached they would check the scriptures to see if the things that Paul preached were true. The scriptures say that thease people were more noble. I would think that Paul’s authority would outstrip the authority of any one in the church today. So why cant we accept the authority of the scriptures and do our best to submit ourselves to it. And when we come to the place where we are in a position to choose weather we obey God’s word and the leadings of His Holy Spirit or follow some church tradition or even one who is a pastor or even a pope. Which way will you go. Will you follow God or will you follow a man.

I am not advocating rebelling against spiritual authority, against God’s ministers or His church. But I am against it when it goes against scripture and obeying the Holy Spirit.

I would encourage you to read 1 Kings chapter 13

I would also encourage you since martan luther is mentioned so many times to read his 95 theases that he posted on the church door and see what they actually say. I would also encourage you to read about him from a perspective that is not roman chatholic. He was not perfect but God did use Him. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have someone post martin luthers theses that he is so famous for and to take each one and discuss them to see why He really left the church.

                                   hope

Can you tell me what you are saying? I am sorry but I am sure I am not interpreting what you say correctly. It seems you agree with scripture that we are not to have private interpretation, which most protestants refuse to believe, but to replace the Church and its teachings as founded by Jesus and thereafter Peter, you suggest we listen to and follow the Holy Spirit? The inherent problem with this logic is the Holy Spirit , if you listen to man has inspired the thousands of protestant denominations already in existence who have caused the splintering of Gods church already.

We either accept that the Holy Spirit has inspired the break pof the protestants with the RCC, I dont, or we see the fallibility of listening to man’s claims of what the holy spirit inspires.

Of course I could have your posts meaning completely wrong.

 

[hope_7]

michealcollins
most protestants teach against private intrepetation. Scripture must be weighed with scripture. No scripture can be trully understood without the Holy Spirit. He is the true teacher. It is impossible for us to understand God’s word without the revelation of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that takes the truths of God’s word and makes them a reality to us.

The way you are thinking makes it unclear what I am saying.

The differant denominations were not started because of just ones own intrepetin in scripture. At least not all of them.

When marten luther left the church it was because the teachings of the church didnt match what God’s word says They had gotten so far from the scriptures that this movement came about.

There were people in those times that were speaking about this trying to bring the scriptures to the common people and were put to death for it. If martin luther had not left the catholic church and went where they could not get to him he would have been put tp death too.

From that time there has been a progression in the protestant movemant to get back to the way it was when the church began.

If you read the book of acts it was not like it is today. the concept of salvation by grace or as martin luther put it the just shall live by faith seemed to be a compleately radical way of thought Next came baptism that was not infant baptism down to the holiness movements to the 1900s when the penticostal movement began, to the charismatic renewel which began I believe in the late 50s or early 60s

If one has the mindset that the pope started with Peter and is carried on down through what is called apostolic succession then it is hard to recieve what I am saying. Marten Luther callenged the authority of the pope and the church of his day and said that God’s word is superior.

One can study God’s word in the finest schools under the greatest of scholers and still not know it even though they think they do. Only when the Holy Spirit opens it up to you and gives you understanding can you even begin to know what it says or can even begin to experiance what it says.

Martin Luther was one of those people who did when he found the just shall live by faith. The protestant church has come a long way from that time and the goal is to get back before all the traditions where it is just Jesus where He lives in and through us without all the stuff of self and traditions that hinder Him in and through us At least that is the way it is for me.

There are so many differant protestant churches and alot of what you think is true if you only look on the surface but f you look at church history you can see God’s hand in it all.

There are divisions in the catholic church as well orthodox catholics claim to be the one true church and the roman catholics are not. There are arguments about the authority of the pope between thease two, about purgatory, Mary. I was told by one orthodox priest that the roman catholic church has corrupted itself down through the ages. One discounts the other. I believe all need to look more at Jesus and what He says and do that . I wonder if we can see how poor we really are.

I am afraid that I am not doing a good job of answering your question
hope

 

[johnnydigit]

Of course they do!!!

In “matters of faith and morals” they will defer to their pastors’ knowledge and biblical interpretation.

My last conversation with my protestant pastor, a well known bible teacher, who preaches also on the radio…

Me: I’m ready to invest in a Bible Commentary, whose would you suggest?

Him: Hmm, not sure I could suggest just one.

Me: Would you suggest the Matthew Henry Commentary?

Him: Well, I agree with the Matthew Henry commentary on some things…

Me: So how can I know when I purchase a bible commentary that I’m getting the right one?

Him: Chuckles nervously. Moves to talk with next churchmember.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Everyone has a “Pope shaped void” in their hearts.

their pastor is pretty much their pope and authority. they look to him for interpretation and guidance. sure, you can interpret on your own, but how much is formed by the pastor’s teaching? if they don’t agree with most of what you feel, choose another pastor pope who suits you. it’s an open Christian party buffet of beliefs!

 

[Blessed_Hope]

It always seems to me like Protestants are lumped into one category by you guys…first of all…thats wrong!
Anyway…what a thread…I read some of it and may go back for more…but for me…and I speak for myself…I am a Bible believing Christian. I happen to go to an independant Baptist Church, but your heading implies that WE believe our leaders are infallible…WRONGO…
The only perfect one I can seem to think of is my Lord Jesus Christ. I love the pastors at my church and there are alot of Christians in leadership roles that I do look up to, but no, they are not perfect…just people, with a sin nature, but saved by Grace…Ephesians 2:8-9, if you want to check that out…
So you guys dont like it when WE make assumptions about you all, so it amazes me when I see it done towards us. hmmm…

 

[Peter_J]

It always seems to me like Protestants are lumped into one category by you guys…first of all…thats wrong!

Good point. I think that’s something we could all work on. (As a Catholic, I find it annoying when Protestants say "I heard a Catholic say such-and-such, so that proves that such-and-such is the Catholic position.)

Anyway…what a thread…

What you don’t like it? I was kind of hoping, if this thread is very successful, we could follow it up with a “Americans believe that George Washington was infallible” thread.

 

[LUISV]

What you don’t like it? I was kind of hoping, if this thread is very successful, we could follow it up with a “Americans believe that George Washington was infallible” thread.

You mean he wasn’t? I thought he could not tell a lie. If everything he said was true, wouldn’t that make him infallible???

 

[Zooey]

It always seems to me like Protestants are lumped into one category by you guys…first of all…thats wrong!
Anyway…what a thread…I read some of it and may go back for more…but for me…and I speak for myself…I am a Bible believing Christian. I happen to go to an independant Baptist Church, but your heading implies that WE believe our leaders are infallible…WRONGO…
The only perfect one I can seem to think of is my Lord Jesus Christ. I love the pastors at my church and there are alot of Christians in leadership roles that I do look up to, but no, they are not perfect…just people, with a sin nature, but saved by Grace…Ephesians 2:8-9, if you want to check that out…
So you guys dont like it when WE make assumptions about you all, so it amazes me when I see it done towards us. hmmm…

Good point. I think that’s something we could all work on. (As a Catholic, I find it annoying when Protestants say "I heard a Catholic say such-and-such, so that proves that such-and-such is the Catholic position.)

What you don’t like it? I was kind of hoping, if this thread is very successful, we could follow it up with a “Americans believe that George Washington was infallible” thread.

[SIGN]http://bestsmileys.com/peeping/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/peeping/8.gifGeorge Washington was infallible.
neener neenerneeneer!!!http://bestsmileys.com/peeping/7.gif[/SIGN]

 

[pnewton]

It always seems to me like Protestants are lumped into one category by you guys…first of all…thats wrong!o you guys dont like it when WE make assumptions about you all, so it amazes me when I see it done towards us. hmmm…

That is because there is a lack of understanding between Catholics and other Christians. Most cradle Catholics do not understand that groups like Baptists have no parallel to infallibility and authority structure. Therefore they can’t have a “pope” or any similar position, formally or informally. Catholics do not need to try to force these round concepts in square hole of Protestantism. They simply do not apply.