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Pier
Guest
So did the Apostles, when Jesus said to, “Do this in memory of me.” :yup:
That would also apply to Christ’s words, “Give us this day our Daily Bread”, as the Eucharist is offered every day during the Mass, not just on Sundays, or once a month. :nope:
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guanophore
Guest
This is a very good example of a man-made tradition!
Or in this case, woman made.
The main problem, apart from the facdt that this formula is not in scripture, is that it all depends upon your subjective interpretation of scripture. Therefore, if you read it differently than the next devoted bible christian, the two of you may come up with opposite understandings of what “it” is.
Exactly! Just as God sends priests to His people to minister to their needs.
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benedictus2
Guest
I think you are being **deliberately **obtuse here so you can avoid having to answer my question. But sorry, you’ve tried that tactic far too many times, we’re on to you.
The derailing tactic is not your original response to Cinette. It is your **re-**posting of this post **when we are already too far down the track **of this discussion. THAT is the derailing tactic.
And the fact that for the 5th time you have failed to address my question.
So till now no answer to my question?
Me thinks you have ran out of reasonable responses.
Do I take it that I am right that you yourself can be classified as a heretic and so not a believer?
Yes finally, we have established that Scripture eludes Ginger as well. Ergo the Bible is not plain.
End of topic. Discussion closed.
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benedictus2
Guest
Funny, for someone who worships the Bible you are going against the Bible for NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT ONLY WHAT IS IN THEBIBLE IS TO BE BELIEVED.
Hmmm, a case of being a magisterium unto yourself?
That’s quite common in the I/Me/Myself culture which is actually opposed to Christianity.
Poor things the early Christians, without a Bible to worship.
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ufamtobie
Guest
Read before you talk
Ginger, you should read the Lives of the saints and there you will find throughout the centuries that many Catholic Priests, have healed the sick raise the dead, ect…
Again, though it is not the Priests who heal, it is Jesus through the priests who heals and brings back to life.
Ginger, if you don’t believe that Jesus can’t forgive our sins through a priests then that is your Problem and a big one at that.
Ginger, So go ahead and disregard (John 20: 23) If you forgive mens’s sins they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.’
and see what will happen at the end of time for doing so.
Ufamtobie
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Ginger2
Guest
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Pier
Guest
Worth repeating.
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benedictus2
Guest
You will perceive me as arguing because you fail to provide straight to the point answers not just to me but to everyone else.
If you are being honest, which post number answered this question:
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guanophore
Guest
And the fact that for the 5th time you have failed to address my question.
So till now no answer to my question?
Me thinks you have ran out of reasonable responses.
Do I take it that I am right that you yourself can be classified as a heretic and so not a believer?
End of topic. Discussion closed.
I think you are right about the tactics and the lack of answers. But I don’t think the term “heretic” can be appropriately applied in this case. In order for one to qualify for that title, one must have known and embraced the truth at one time. Clearly Ginger2 was never taught the Apostolic faith, and is trying to figure out the Christian faith by herself with a bible (though she does not seem very familiar with that either).
She had ended up clinging to a variety of what are technically heretical beliefs, but largely our of ignorance/lack of education. I do sense also an intractible rebellion, but something is going on, or she would not be here, purporting blatantly heretical views (whether she knows they are, or not).
Hopefully she will turn out to be more like Apollos, who though fervent in faith, was not correctly taught and needed instruction. Perhaps she will find that here. Let us pray that she will open her heart to the truth.
BTW, good job on the thread! Don’t forget that there are many lurkers reading who will benefit from well researched posts.
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Leonius
Guest
If someone is born and raised Catholic and then abandons the faith that makes them a apostate heretic, if someone knowingly holds beliefs contrary to Catholic dogma they are just infidels. Either way its not good.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
GINGER, WHAT IS YOUR PRIVATE interpretation of these verses please let me know.
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.
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benedictus2
Guest
Actually, the only reason I said she was a heretic because she said that the reason the Bible was not plain to the heretics who came up with heresies against the Trinity was because they were not believers.I think you are right about the tactics and the lack of answers. But I don’t think the term “heretic” can be appropriately applied in this case. In order for one to qualify for that title, one must have known and embraced the truth at one time. Clearly Ginger2 was never taught the Apostolic faith, and is trying to figure out the Christian faith by herself with a bible (though she does not seem very familiar with that either).
She had ended up clinging to a variety of what are technically heretical beliefs, but largely our of ignorance/lack of education. I do sense also an intractible rebellion, but something is going on, or she would not be here, purporting blatantly heretical views (whether she knows they are, or not).
Hopefully she will turn out to be more like Apollos, who though fervent in faith, was not correctly taught and needed instruction. Perhaps she will find that here. Let us pray that she will open her heart to the truth.
BTW, good job on the thread! Don’t forget that there are many lurkers reading who will benefit from well researched posts.
So I argue that: if that is the case, since she keeps missing so many things that are blatantly plain in the Bible, by her own reasoning she must be an unbeliever and therefore a heretic because to her mind, that is the only reason the Bible will not be plain to one.
Oh the tangled web we weave, when first we venture to deceive.
And yes, I do pray for all who are outside the Church to finally come Home. I loooove conversion stories especially that first wonderful moment when the penny drops.
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ac_claire
Guest
RE-POSTED:
When you say God Himself tells you something in scripture, do you mean that you hear the voice of God explaining the correct meaning to you? Or that Christ actually appears to make things clear…? You’re still talking about it coming down to your own understanding of what you’re reading.
Example: someone else who thinks they’re being guided by the Holy Spirit can read John 6 and take Jesus at his word there- literally. Are they not really being guided by the Holy Spirit if they are led to that conclusion and you, reading the same passage, are led to a different conclusion?
…the same Sacred Scriptures which tell us the Jesus established a Church for His followers. But we don’t believe anything because Church Tradition alone tells us so. It’s because the Church tells us so, which is Sacred Tradition and Scripture. You can’t have one of these things without the other, it was never meant to be that way.
When you say God Himself tells you something in scripture, do you mean that you hear the voice of God explaining the correct meaning to you? Or that Christ actually appears to make things clear…? You’re still talking about it coming down to your own understanding of what you’re reading.
Example: someone else who thinks they’re being guided by the Holy Spirit can read John 6 and take Jesus at his word there- literally. Are they not really being guided by the Holy Spirit if they are led to that conclusion and you, reading the same passage, are led to a different conclusion?
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benedictus2
Guest
I have been told off by PeterJ for saying this but I say it again: protestants are magisteriums onto themselves. Which is probably why they dislike the Magisterium. Their own individual understanding alone is true. The problem that they have different interpretations and yet all claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit just does not sink in.
It is the hegemony of the I. Much like in the garden of Eden.
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joe370
Guest
If Jesus built One Church, as all scholars believe, as the bible clearly states, then only ministers of His One Church, His One Mystical Body, the One House of the Living God, the One Pillar and One Foundation of One Truth—with Jesus as the Savior of His One Church are qualified to continue what Jesus’ Apostles did via the Holy Spirit–forgive sins.
The important questions are whether or not this power to forgive sins against God (all sin whether committed against friend or foe is a sin against God; God abhors sin) --is transferable from one generation to the next --forever, until the end of time? And is it transferable to churches established by mere men, not God? When the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, (Jesus’ Apostolic Church) --and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins, was this a commandment in perpetuity, or just for the Christians who received forgiveness from the actual Apostles (ministers of God) themselves?
We know that the Holy Spirit must be present in order for these sin to be forgiven or retained, *“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”*John 20:23
The first thing we have to establish, is how long was the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus, to be with the Apostolic Church:
“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth… (there can only be one truth propagated by the one church established by Jesus circa 33 AD) The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.” John 14
Here we see that the Holy Spirit will be with Jesus’ Church “forever.” If the H.S. is with Jesus’ Church in perpetuity and was with the Apostles, Christ’s ministers in His stead, in the 1st century (Jesus’ Church --Matthew 16:18) --when they were commanded to forgive or retain sins; then it only stands to reason that the H.S. is with Christ’s ministers in His stead, in the 21st century, and are still commanded to forgive or retain sins.
If the Apostles --their appointed elders (priests), bishops and deacons, through the imposition of hands, were necessary intercessors in the 1st century,(and the bible says they were) --then it only stands to reason that these same men today are necessary intercessors in the 21st century, since the Holy Spirit is still with Jesus’ One Apostolic Church, the C.C. If anyone believes that the C.C. is not the Apostolic Church in the world today, please identify it!
The Holy Spirit was sent to just One Church circa 33 AD on Pentecost, the C.C. and the Holy Spirit is still with that One Church NOW. If you belong to a church that wasn’t built circa 33 AD on Pentecost:
"When the day of Pentecost had come, [the disciples] were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
then it would be pointless for the ministers of that man made church to forgive sins; the Holy Spirit, according to scripture was sent to one church and resides in that one church forever. If the Holy Spirit was sent to another church as well, on Pentecost, please cite the passages in scripture that illustrate this!..
The important questions are whether or not this power to forgive sins against God (all sin whether committed against friend or foe is a sin against God; God abhors sin) --is transferable from one generation to the next --forever, until the end of time? And is it transferable to churches established by mere men, not God? When the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, (Jesus’ Apostolic Church) --and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins, was this a commandment in perpetuity, or just for the Christians who received forgiveness from the actual Apostles (ministers of God) themselves?
We know that the Holy Spirit must be present in order for these sin to be forgiven or retained, *“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”*John 20:23
The first thing we have to establish, is how long was the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus, to be with the Apostolic Church:
“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth… (there can only be one truth propagated by the one church established by Jesus circa 33 AD) The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you.” John 14
Here we see that the Holy Spirit will be with Jesus’ Church “forever.” If the H.S. is with Jesus’ Church in perpetuity and was with the Apostles, Christ’s ministers in His stead, in the 1st century (Jesus’ Church --Matthew 16:18) --when they were commanded to forgive or retain sins; then it only stands to reason that the H.S. is with Christ’s ministers in His stead, in the 21st century, and are still commanded to forgive or retain sins.
If the Apostles --their appointed elders (priests), bishops and deacons, through the imposition of hands, were necessary intercessors in the 1st century,(and the bible says they were) --then it only stands to reason that these same men today are necessary intercessors in the 21st century, since the Holy Spirit is still with Jesus’ One Apostolic Church, the C.C. If anyone believes that the C.C. is not the Apostolic Church in the world today, please identify it!
The Holy Spirit was sent to just One Church circa 33 AD on Pentecost, the C.C. and the Holy Spirit is still with that One Church NOW. If you belong to a church that wasn’t built circa 33 AD on Pentecost:
"When the day of Pentecost had come, [the disciples] were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
then it would be pointless for the ministers of that man made church to forgive sins; the Holy Spirit, according to scripture was sent to one church and resides in that one church forever. If the Holy Spirit was sent to another church as well, on Pentecost, please cite the passages in scripture that illustrate this!..
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joe370
Guest
…Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matthew 28:20
*“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”*John 20:23
**John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins. (very biblical) **
John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
**John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. **
Makes perfect sense to me.
**Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ ministers --(bishops, elders, and deacons of Jesus’ Church) still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? **
The bible clearly illustrates that there were successors to both the Apostles and Saint Paul. If successors were necessary after all of the Apostles passed away, and they were, then successors are necessary in every century, until Jesus’ return. As long as the Holy Spirit is present with Jesus’ Church, the forgiveness or retention of sins by Gods holy ministers will be possible. I don’t even know how Jesus’ Church, promised --never to be vanquished (Matthew 16:18) could survive without successors. Certainly Protestant churches have successors, otherwise they too would cease to exist. Every Institution, the world over must have successors in order to survive…
Did the Holy Spirit leave Jesus’ church once all the apostles passed away, rendering these commandments null and void; if so then all churches, including the C.C. are nothing more than man made edifices, and Jesus did in fact leave His Church orphans.
I doubt to many Christians would entertain that idea…
*“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”*John 20:23
**John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins. (very biblical) **
John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
**John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. **
Makes perfect sense to me.
**Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ ministers --(bishops, elders, and deacons of Jesus’ Church) still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors? **
The bible clearly illustrates that there were successors to both the Apostles and Saint Paul. If successors were necessary after all of the Apostles passed away, and they were, then successors are necessary in every century, until Jesus’ return. As long as the Holy Spirit is present with Jesus’ Church, the forgiveness or retention of sins by Gods holy ministers will be possible. I don’t even know how Jesus’ Church, promised --never to be vanquished (Matthew 16:18) could survive without successors. Certainly Protestant churches have successors, otherwise they too would cease to exist. Every Institution, the world over must have successors in order to survive…
Did the Holy Spirit leave Jesus’ church once all the apostles passed away, rendering these commandments null and void; if so then all churches, including the C.C. are nothing more than man made edifices, and Jesus did in fact leave His Church orphans.
I doubt to many Christians would entertain that idea…
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Cinette
Guest
Joe370 -
What a wonderful exposition you have made and all that was required was Faith and Reason.
This summarizes a perfect answer to the OP’s question very well indeed.
BUT… don’t be surprised if you get a response like this:
Wrong!
There are people bent on telling us that the CC is wrong! You can talk until you are blue in the face.
What a wonderful exposition you have made and all that was required was Faith and Reason.
This summarizes a perfect answer to the OP’s question very well indeed.
BUT… don’t be surprised if you get a response like this:
Wrong!
There are people bent on telling us that the CC is wrong! You can talk until you are blue in the face.
U
ufamtobie
Guest
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benedictus2
Guest
It just struck me now, this quote of yours.
If you don’t know what John 20:23 means
then the Bible is not plain to you.
If the Bible is not plain to you (by your own reasoning that the Bible is only plain to believers) then that makes you a non-believer.
If you are a non-believer, again by your own reasoning, that makes you a heretic.
If you are a heretic, why should anyone believe any of your interpretations.
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