Protestants, can a Catholic Priest forgive sins?

[Ginger2]

But if what you’re saying is true then the Apostles certainly didn’t need the ability to absolve peoples’ sins EITHER.

That is what I am say - the Apostles did not have the power to forgive sins in the same sense as God forgives.

They needed it no more than anyone in this day and age does. So why on earth did Jesus give THEM the power to absolve?

Wrong. Read Hebrews. The things of the OT were shadows of the things to come. The old could not do what would be accomplished by the new covenant in Jesus blood.

Also, Show me the verse that says the people asked the priests to forgive/absolve their sins when they brought their offerings.

 

[LilyM]

That is what I am say - the Apostles did not have the power to forgive sins in the same sense as God forgives.

You can’t be serious.

So God NEVER gave the power to ANY men (not man singular, so not just Jesus) to forgive sins in His name? Power that the people wondered at when He, the first of numerous men, exercised it on the paralytic? And be sure it was in God’s name - the paralytic had never sinned against Jesus the man, so Jesus the man had nothing to forgive him for.

And He never gave the power to the Apostles to RETAIN sins? Which NO man can rightly do as a mere man - never ever ever (instead we are to forgive seventy times seven times). But which God can, and which men speaking in His name can, and Peter did to Ananias and Sapphira, for example?

Peter, if he was exercising merely a man’s prerogatives in regard to sin, was obligated to forgive Ananias and Sapphira, regardless of if they repented, since Jesus does not tell us as men to forgive ONLY those who repent. And not retain their sins against them in any case.

And God never told us, through the epistle of James, that the prayers and anointing of a bishop will obtain forgiveness for a sick man of ANY sins he may have? How can ANY man forgive, as a mere man, sins that don’t affect him personally? He can’t. So the bishop in this instance is exercising a God-given office and prerogative, not just that of a mere man, to forgive in His name.

Also, Show me the verse that says the people asked the priests to forgive/absolve their sins when they brought their offerings.

Well why do you think they BROUGHT the offerings to the priests, fer Pete’s sake! For fun? Did they say to the priest ‘here’s an animal which I’ve brought for no particular reason, have fun sacrificing it - and by the way you get to eat it and I don’t!’

Of course they TOLD the priest it was a sin offering (as opposed to any other type). They had to - different offerings were treated differently. And by even telling the priest this they were confessing their sin!

Did they say ‘here’s a sin offering for you, but I might just as easily have obtained forgiveness for my sins by privately sacrificing it at home and saved myself the time and effort of coming here to the Temple - not to mention keeping that meat for myself’?

No - they surely spent the time and effort taking the animal to the priest because it was the ONLY way, ordinarily, to obtain forgiveness of their sins (at least the serious ones). If not, you can be sure they wouldn’t have bothered, and you can be surer that God wouldn’t have bothered prescribing a ritual as to how it was to be done.

 

[Ginger2]

You can’t be serious.

So God NEVER gave the power to ANY men (not man singular, so not just Jesus) to forgive sins in His name? Power that the people wondered at when He, the first of numerous men, exercised it on the paralytic?

Jesus said, LUKE 7:48-50
He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The others at table said to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
But he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Matthew 9:2-7
And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.”
At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."

But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home."
He rose and went home.

Jesus said on more than one occasion, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Show me one time an Apostles said those words as a declaration that they had power to forgive as God forgives.

The Apostles did not have the same power to forgive sins as Jesus. Only God can forgive sins in that way. Jesus is God.

 

[LilyM]

Jesus said, LUKE 7:48-50
He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The others at table said to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
But he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Matthew 9:2-7
And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.”
At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."

But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home."
He rose and went home.

Jesus said on more than one occasion, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Show me one time an Apostles said those words as a declaration that they had power to forgive as God forgives.

The Apostles did not have the same power to forgive sins as Jesus. Only God can forgive sins in that way. Jesus is God.

How very conveniently you forgot to continue the next verse of Matt 9 - verse 8, which proves my point precisely.

It reads ‘When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe, and glorified God who had given such authority to human beingS’. Note the plural, highly significant. Obviously they recognised that not just ONE human had the authority that Jesus had. For that matter I doubt the verse is even referring to Jesus anyway - since when does God really give authority to Himself?

Why don’t you, as they did, recognise, to God’s glory that He has passed His authority on to his chosen ministers on Earth? Plural, not just Jesus.

Then let’s look at James 5:14-16. ‘Is any of you sick? He should summon the presbyters (priests) of the Church, and they should pray over him … If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another’.

Makes mightily clear that through the prayers and anointing of the priests, not only is physical illness healed but forgiveness of sins is obtained. More than that, ‘therefore’ means ‘because of this’. Meaning because of what is stated in the previous sentence in this case.

So reading v 15 and 16 together, since they are linked by the ‘therefore’, it indicates that BECAUSE the prayers of the priests obtain forgiveness of sins, we should confess to them!

By the way how VERY convenient of you to totally ignore what I had to say about Leviticus. :tsktsk:

 

[Peter_J]

As I have said before, I believe the Catholic Church is misinterpreting that verse.

The Bible clearly states, only God can forgive sins. Scripture is consistent and does not contradict itself.

The Apostles were not forgiven sins in the same sense as God. For that to be true they would either have had to see into the person’s heart, AND know the mind of God, which Scriptures says is impossible,

OR had God speaking to them directly in each case.

Are you suggesting that each and every priest has direct communication with God, and is told by God who He will forgive and who He will not forgive?

Since you say that the Apostles didn’t forgive sins in the same sense as God, do you then agree with us that the Apostles did in fact forgive sins?

 

[Ginger2]

Since you say that the Apostles didn’t forgive sins in the same sense as God, do you then agree with us that the Apostles did in fact forgive sins?

Yes.

 

[Ginger2]

How very conveniently you forgot to continue the next verse of Matt 9 - verse 8, which proves my point precisely.

It reads ‘When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe, and glorified God who had given such authority to human beingS’.

I didn’t forget. It doesn’t change a thing I said. They didn’t say they “glorified God who had given authority to forgive sins to human beings”

Were you not aware that it wasn’t everyone who could walk around healing the sick and the lame?

I have never met a priest who could heal cancer or cause a paraplegic to walk. If this is your comparison, why aren’t todays priests healing people to show their sins are forgiven?

 

[Pax4Jesus]

Only God can forgive us our sins

 

[LilyM]

I didn’t forget. It doesn’t change a thing I said. They didn’t say they “glorified God who had given authority to forgive sins to human beings”

Were you not aware that it wasn’t everyone who could walk around healing the sick and the lame?

I have never met a priest who could heal cancer or cause a paraplegic to walk. If this is your comparison, why aren’t todays priests healing people to show their sins are forgiven?

And round we go again. Of course it didn’t say they “glorified God who had given authority to perform miracles and no other power to human beings” either. I’m happy to play THAT game of verbal pingpong as long as you like, pointless though it is.

Besides which Jesus had healed many people and performed many miracles by then - they wouldn’t really be struck with awe by His doing so yet again. This one time was differentprecisely because of the issue of forgiveness of sins.

That God would endorse His ‘blasphemy’ of presuming to forgive as God forgives - by performing a miracle to show His approval of Jesus’ claim to the godly power of forgiveness - THAT awed them, and THAT was ALSO the power that He gave to human beings.

And of course, as typical - I get a big fat ignore from you on the passage from James. You struck with some strange form of learning disorder where you can only read half a post at a time or something?

 

[Ginger2]

And round we go again.

You are the one taking us in circles. Look at your reasoning.

Of course it didn’t say they “glorified God who had given authority to perform miracles and no other power to human beings” either.

You seem to be saying as long as God didn’t say it didn’t - that proves He did.

1 Cor 12:
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. …

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines…

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

And of course, as typical - I get a big fat ignore from you on the passage from James. You struck with some strange form of learning disorder where you can only read half a post at a time or something?

I didn’t forget. It doesn’t change a thing I said. …

**I have never met a priest who could heal cancer or cause a paraplegic to walk. ** If this is your comparison, why aren’t todays priests healing people to show their sins are forgiven?

It seems “You struck with some strange form of learning disorder where you can only read half a post at a time or something”

 

[LilyM]

I have never met a priest who could heal cancer or cause a paraplegic to walk. If this is your comparison, why aren’t todays priests healing people to show their sins are forgiven?

There are plenty of people who attend healing Masses run by Catholic priests, and/or receive the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick (as James bids us do) and are indeed either completely healed or partially (but nonetheless miraculously, ie contrary to science) relieved of the symptoms of their diseases.

You’ve probably just never bothered to find out about it.

 

[Peter_J]

You seem to be saying as long as God didn’t say it didn’t - that proves He did.

No, you’re just assuming that’s what she meant.

Since you say that the Apostles didn’t forgive sins in the same sense as God, do you then agree with us that the Apostles did in fact forgive sins?

freesmileys.org/smileys/happy036.gif

 

[Ginger2]

There are plenty of people who attend healing Masses run by Catholic priests, and/or receive the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick (as James bids us do) and are indeed either completely healed or partially (but nonetheless miraculously, ie contrary to science) relieved of the symptoms of their diseases.

You’ve probably just never bothered to find out about it.

2Cr 11:
For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I frequently hear about prophets who heal incurable diseases and even raise the dead.

I don’t rush to believing every claim I hear on hearsay.

Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith, let it be done for you!”

Mar 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help me overcome my unbelief.

 

[LilyM]

2Cr 11:
For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I frequently hear about prophets who heal incurable diseases and even raise the dead.

I don’t rush to believing every claim I hear on hearsay.

Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith, let it be done for you!”

Mar 9:23-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help me overcome my unbelief.

What do you mean by this? You were the one who rejected the idea of priestly power on the basis that as far as you knew priests had never cured anyone. You are the one who seems to think such things are important (as if Our Lord granting them the power to forgive and retain sins and the power of binding and loosing, and their own example of passing Judas’ Apostolic power on to Matthias isn’t enough).

All I did was gave you what you asked for. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

[joshua_b]

Only God can forgive us our sins

This is ABSOLUTELY correct. God alone has the power to forgive our sins, and thus, God alone has the power to forgive our sin through whatever means He chooses. God chose to forgive our sins through Jesus , who had all heavenly authority. Having all heavenly authority, Jesus authorized His priesthood to forgive or retain sin in His name. This is the belief of Christians as has been practiced since the apostolic age. We as mere humans have no right to tell God that He must forgive us on OUR terms.

 

[Ginger2]

All I did was gave you what you asked for. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

You made a claim, you did not provide proof.

The Bible says prove all things.

The Bible says don’t believe everything, but test for truth.

Where is your proof? Are you suggesting I take your word for it?

These claims are made all the time and people go rushing off to false prophets.

There are false prophets posing as Catholics, you know.

As for real Catholics, I am aware the Catholic church holds healing masses. But where is your proof they are any more profitable then healing services by Protestants pastors?

Show me proof of your superiority.

You have made a connection between healing power and the power to forgive sins. If this is so, show your evidence. Your saying so doesn’t make it true.

 

[LilyM]

You made a claim, you did not provide proof.

The Bible says prove all things.

The Bible says don’t believe everything, but test for truth.

Where is your proof? Are you suggesting I take your word for it?

These claims are made all the time and people go rushing off to false prophets.

There are false prophets posing as Catholics, you know.

As for real Catholics, I am aware the Catholic church holds healing masses. But where is your proof they are any more profitable then healing services by Protestants pastors?

Show me proof of your superiority.

You have made a connection between healing power and the power to forgive sins. If this is so, show your evidence. Your saying so doesn’t make it true.

Should I take your word for it that Protestant preachers can heal? There are many charlatans out there. You probably have as much ‘proof’ of their ability to heal as you do of your allegation that Catholic priests can’t - none.

The difference being Catholic priests, being salaried employees of their local dioceses, at least don’t make their living out of donations from those who are healed.

Rather the masses and anointings are generally just part of their salaried job as priests. Every priest celebrates masses and administers the sacrament of anointing. That removes a large percentage of their motive for deception as opposed to Protestant ‘healing ministries’.

I didn’t claim ‘superiority’ in the healing stakes for Catholic priests - you’re reading way too much into what I said if you think that.

Neither did I ever claim that the ministry of healing was reserved only for priests and preachers either. Look at the healings claimed for Lourdes, which were begun by St Bernadette’s discovery of the spring of water and have nothing to do with priests. And the miracles of every single canonised saint, male or female, priest or not, that are investigated as part of the process of declaring them saints.

I was merely rebutting your allegation that because Catholic priests allegedly never DID heal that they therefore had no authority of any kind, to heal or anything else.

If you have heard of ‘healing masses’ then how can you say with any kind of credibility that no-one was ever healed by going to one? Have you asked every person that has ever attended one?

I’m not saying Protestants can’t heal, I’m saying Catholic priests can and do. And therefore they DO have God-given authority, both to heal and to forgive sins.

The two types of authority aren’t absolutely interrelated of course - I don’t believe St Bernadette had the power to forgive sins. And I don’t believe any healing miracles are recorded of John the Baptist, although he certainly had the power to declare sins forgiven - did he not say that he baptised people for the forgiveness of their sins?

But there is something of a link between the two, Jesus Himself made the link with the paralytic. Having destroyed the logic of your argument that Catholic priests don’t have the authority to heal - that at least casts doubt on your suggestion that they also weren’t given the power to forgive sins!

 

[ChristianKnight]

John 20: 21-23
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

The Father sends Jesus, Jesus send the Apostles, the Apostles send the Bishops/Cardinals/ Priest an unbroken succession.

Ufamtobie

Where does it say they pass the power down in the bible?

 

[LilyM]

Where does it say they pass the power down in the bible?

In Acts where they choose Matthias to succeed to the OFFICE (by describing it as an ‘office’ this necessarily implies that the powers go with the job, not with the man) of Apostle - in other words to replace Judas. By this they necessarily make Matthias their equal in power, every inch ‘one of the twelve’. Including their power to forgive sins.

Besides which, there’s no point in Jesus giving that sort of power if it died out with the eleven - what, like people in that generation were so very much stupider or weaker or something than we are, that they needed an authority figure to forgive their sins whereas we don’t? Gimme a break.

 

[ChristianKnight]

In Acts where they choose Matthias to succeed to the OFFICE (by describing it as an ‘office’ this necessarily implies that the powers go with the job, not with the man) of Apostle - in other words to replace Judas. By this they necessarily make Matthias their equal in power, every inch ‘one of the twelve’. Including their power to forgive sins.

Besides which, there’s no point in Jesus giving that sort of power if it died out with the eleven - what, like people in that generation were so very much stupider or weaker or something than we are, that they needed an authority figure to forgive their sins whereas we don’t? Gimme a break.

Please get the quotes from which you speak.

If you make an assumption, then its not neccessarily true. Gimme a break.