Protestants can not mortally sin

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It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
 
I think its partially accurate. But if they are given the knowledge and refuse to form their conscience than I believe they could possibly be susceptible to hell. But that is for God to choose. All I know is that if I were them I would do all I can to learn how to grow as close as I can to God. And if they don’t want to learn to grow closer they are only hurting themselves. And even if they don’t go to hell they may be spending a long time in purgatory.
 
It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
I think this is not correct conclusion. There always is natural law for everyone…“Do good and avoid evil.” Also there are the 10 commandments for Christians. Everyone knows that murder is a grave matter no matter what denomination they belong to. I do not think the belief “faith alone” impedes one from knowing when a grave action has been committed.
 
First off, let me say that we cannot know who mortally sins and who doesn’t, protestant or Catholic. It is not our place to judge this. We can judge if a sin is grave in nature or not, which protestants and Catholics can both commit these sins. It is our responsibility to let people know when they commit a sin that is grave in nature, but we cannot know that it is actually a mortal sin for them.

To answer your question though, of course protestants CAN commit mortal sin. This is because your argument presupposes that they cannot know the truth which is not necessarily true.

For example, let us say that a pastor, in reading the gospel of John for the 100th time, finally sees that Jesus wasn’t being metaphorical. He recognizes that the communion he calibrates isn’t what Jesus had in mind and that the Catholic Church has it right. In reflecting on this concept, he like so many of us, decides to ignore what he discovered and continue being a pastor of his protestant denomination. He does this because he cannot afford to become Catholic since he would lose his income and he has a family to support. What he has done is ignored the Holy Spirit and not placed his trust in God to provide for him. This would be a mortal sin because all of the criteria would be met. Grave matter, know the right thing, and purposefully do the wrong thing.

The point is, you cannot say what a protestant knows to be true and what they are failing to act on. You cannot know what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them and what they have wittingly ignored. So to say that a protestant CANNOT commit a mortal sin would not be accurate.

God Bless.
 
It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
The Church teaches that no man is deemed to be ignorant of the natural law.
 
It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
Interesting concept but wrongheaded.
The definition of Mortal sin is an explanation of something that occurs. It is not, like some legal definition, a dividing line between a felony and a misdemeanor.

We fall because Gravity is the law whether we understand it or not.

A Christian, with elementary understanding of what being a disciple of Christ means, has a reasonable understanding of what constitutes grave sin and if, knowing this and having given thought to an action, they go ahead and do it anyway, they have defied God - and what’s more they know they have defied God.

Now - If at judgement, when their heart is laid bare before God, there is defect in their beliefs and understandings not of their own making, it will be seen by He who is Just and merciful. Otherwise - Big Trouble…

Peace
James
 
It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
No, not at all. First of all, many Protestants do have something corresponding to a concept of venial/mortal sin–they just don’t use the term. I was certainly taught growing up (in a Wesleyan Holiness context) that certain sins would separate me from God.

In the second place, when Protestants deny the distinction it’s because they hold that all sins are in principle mortal, not because they think all sins are venial! In practice, Protestants almost inevitably wind up reintroducing some form of the distinction, if only along the lines of “sins a real Christian won’t commit habitually and/or persist in for a long time without repenting of them.” Even Luther, in his sermons on the Sermon on the Mount, approved of the distinction in the context of giving pastoral advice to a person troubled by lust (if you don’t dwell on and assent to the thought, it’s not a mortal sin). In other words, Protestant teaching about “all sins being equal” (besides not being held to by Wesleyans and some other Protestants) is about soteriology, not ethics or pastoral care. The (partial) separation of soteriology from ethics and pastoral care is, in my opinion, one of the huge problems with Protestantism. But Catholics often don’t understand how this works.

And finally, I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches that a person who doesn’t intellectually believe he or she is committing a mortal sin is incapable of committing one. You can deny your conscience and persuade yourself that what you are doing is OK, but still be culpable. Nazis may have believed on some level that it was “right” to murder Jews–that didn’t make them incapable of sinning mortally in this regard unless they were not culpable for the process by which they came to this horrifically erroneous belief. I’ve read a speech by one of the Nazi leaders that admits that slaughtering Jews and other “inferior” peoples went against one’s feelings of humanity–but he argues that it is necessary in order to remove a “cancer.” Someone who thinks this way probably is sinning mortally by deliberately shoving aside the witness of his conscience in the interests of an erroneous ideology.

But certainly one should be cautious about claiming culpability. In our culture, I can imagine a doctor performing abortions out of a misguided sense of compassion. I’m not saying that such a person wouldn’t be subjectively guilty of mortal sin, but depending on their circumstances, upbringing, etc., I can see how possibly they might not be.

There’s a longstanding principle in Christian ethics that if you are culpable for one act, which leads to you committing a second act in a state where you are no longer morally responsible, then you are culpable for both acts. This is traditionally applied to actions committed when a person is drunk. At least that’s how Augustine reasons in On Free Will, and I think the Catholic moral tradition has largely followed him on this (I studied this text with a Catholic priest and got that impression from him–I’m open to correction). So when considering someone who honestly thinks that a given sinful act is not really a sin, you have to ask how the person got into that state of malformed conscience. And only God knows that for sure. (C. S. Lewis makes this argument in The Great Divorce about the heretical bishop–I think it’s a helpful approach to understanding why the Church has historically understood heresy to be a grave sin, where modern people assume that what you believe isn’t possibly a matter of moral responsibility.)

As I said, I don’t think this applies to Protestants and sin as a whole. Even the most antinomian Protestant still believes that adultery and murder and so on are sins–he or she just thinks that such sins won’t affect a believer’s relationship with God.

But it might apply to specific things, like the use of birth control:D

Edwin
 
First off, let me say that we cannot know who mortally sins and who doesn’t, protestant or Catholic. It is not our place to judge this. We can judge if a sin is grave in nature or not, which protestants and Catholics can both commit these sins. It is our responsibility to let people know when they commit a sin that is grave in nature, but we cannot know that it is actually a mortal sin for them.

To answer your question though, of course protestants CAN commit mortal sin. This is because your argument presupposes that they cannot know the truth which is not necessarily true.

For example, let us say that a pastor, in reading the gospel of John for the 100th time, finally sees that Jesus wasn’t being metaphorical. He recognizes that the communion he calibrates isn’t what Jesus had in mind and that the Catholic Church has it right. In reflecting on this concept, he like so many of us, decides to ignore what he discovered and continue being a pastor of his protestant denomination. He does this because he cannot afford to become Catholic since he would lose his income and he has a family to support. What he has done is ignored the Holy Spirit and not placed his trust in God to provide for him. This would be a mortal sin because all of the criteria would be met. Grave matter, know the right thing, and purposefully do the wrong thing.

The point is, you cannot say what a protestant knows to be true and what they are failing to act on. You cannot know what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them and what they have wittingly ignored. So to say that a protestant CANNOT commit a mortal sin would not be accurate.

God Bless.
But see, you’re talking about someone who becomes aware of the Catholic teaching. I’m talking about a lifelong Protestant from cradle to grave who may know that certain actions are wrong, say something common, not like murder, but like pornography. He may know these are wrong actions but b/c he does not have a concept of venial and mortal sins and believes in faith alone he would not be able to have to full knowledge. In the protestant paradigm I would think only apostasy would be considered a mortal sin b/c they believe that as long as they have faith they are saved. Hence, no mortal sins short of apostasy. They do not have FULL knowledge about their actions…
 
But see, you’re talking about someone who becomes aware of the Catholic teaching. I’m talking about a lifelong Protestant from cradle to grave who may know that certain actions are wrong, say something common, not like murder, but like pornography. He may know these are wrong actions but b/c he does not have a concept of venial and mortal sins and believes in faith alone he would not be able to have to full knowledge. In the protestant paradigm I would think only apostasy would be considered a mortal sin b/c they believe that as long as they have faith they are saved. Hence, no mortal sins short of apostasy. They do not have FULL knowledge about their actions…
Most Evangelical Christians have the sense that ALL SIN separates one from God…so in many Evangelical circles it wouldn’t matter if Catholics define “mortal” or “venial” as being more severe an infraction…ALL SIN separates from God…ALL SIN whether “mortal” or “venial” must be repented of and forgiveness sought.
 
As I said, I don’t think this applies to Protestants and sin as a whole. Even the most antinomian Protestant still believes that adultery and murder and so on are sins–he or she just thinks that such sins won’t affect a believer’s relationship with God.
Right. Hence venial sin. Knows and consents to the sin but without FULL knowledge. Venial sins are still known and consented to.
 
Most Evangelical Christians have the sense that ALL SIN separates one from God…so in many Evangelical circles it wouldn’t matter if Catholics define “mortal” or “venial” as being more severe an infraction…ALL SIN separates from God…ALL SIN whether “mortal” or “venial” must be repented of and forgiveness sought.
👍 “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.” (James 2:10) Which is why Christ’s imputed righteousness is SO crucial.
 
Many non-Catholics understand the idea of covenant. For them, moral and venial sin is best described in terms of the covenant. Mortal sin is that which breaks the covenant, venial sin does not.

Knowledge of the Catholic doctrine of mortal and venial sin aside, the most adamant anti-works, sola scriptura, faith alone Evangelical who has memorized entire chapters of the Bible will have to address many difficult issues when he stands face to face with Christ.

***Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father *in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

The Bible is there for all to read. So easy a plowboy could understand it. It’s one of the reasons why it must be so difficult to enter heaven without the sacramental system of the Church.

-Tim-
 
It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
If we abandoned that notion of mortal and venial sins, much would be gained with it.

Mortal sin is like a stain in your dress. You spend 6 months doing your dress but thes, you dropped a stain, the whole dress is useless and you go to hell. It is a bit confusing that you are in your entire life doing good and you slip like Peter and die immediately (not like peter) and then you go to hell.

It makes God look like a 007, with binocular telescopes looking ONLY for mortal sins. So, the rule is: “if you do not go to hell, then you go the heaven!” What kind of theology is this one? Where is the Theology of the Good Deeds? It is just bulldozed byt the Theology of the Bad Deeds.

I was educated like that, watching everyday for my sins, mortal or not. It did me no good, it did not make me avoid sin, it did not make me do good deeds.

It is a relics of Jansenist times where God was considered so far away from men that He was closed behind bars so that no human man could approach it as we see in many european chuches. The rails of communion are a rememberance of those ideas.

If churches change, man’s viewpoints are harder to change.
 
=Link0126;8389346]It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.
Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?
God NOT s is the “author” and definer of sin. ALL humanity have the same opportunities to sin or NOT to sin; and on a very primal level ALL humanity CAN know if the sin they are committing is a MORTAL SIN. Murder, Abortions, same-sex -sexual acts, infediality yo husband or wife; everyone can know these are Mortal sins evden without knowing the termonology.

But because the bible explains that the “keys to heaven rest ONLY with the CC” if one seeks slavation ourside of her; one does so at GRACE risk. God WILL; because God MUST be “fair and just” which MEANS that God will judge ALL of us on what we CAN KNOW; what He makes avaialble for ALL to know; not just what we choose to accept.:eek:

God bless,
Pat
 
If we abandoned that notion of mortal and venial sins, much would be gained with it.
If that was done, it would contradict [1 Jn 5:16…]
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal."
P:
Mortal sin is like a stain in your dress. You spend 6 months doing your dress but thes, you dropped a stain, the whole dress is useless and you go to hell. It is a bit confusing that *you are in your entire life doing good and you slip like Peter and die immediately (not like peter) and then you go to hell. *

It makes God look like a 007, with binocular telescopes looking ONLY for mortal sins. So, the rule is: “if you do not go to hell, then you go the heaven!” What kind of theology is this one? Where is the Theology of the Good Deeds? It is just bulldozed byt the Theology of the Bad Deeds.

I was educated like that, watching everyday for my sins, mortal or not. It did me no good, it did not make me avoid sin, it did not make me do good deeds.

It is a relics of Jansenist times
where God was considered so far away from men that He was closed behind bars so that no human man could approach it as we see in many european chuches. The rails of communion are a rememberance of those ideas.

If churches change, man’s viewpoints are harder to change.

  1. *]Jansenism newadvent.org/cathen/08285a.htm
    *]Based on the consequences of the following sins, Do you think the following sins are venial or mortal sins?

    btw, St Paul is no Jansenist
    **
    Gal 5:

    19
    Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication,* impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, * drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    .1 Cor 6:
    9
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God*? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, * 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Right. Hence venial sin. Knows and consents to the sin but without FULL knowledge. Venial sins are still known and consented to.
I think you’re over-interpreting the phrase “full knowledge.” That doesn’t imply that a person knows everything there is to be known about the theological implications of sin, only that a person is fully aware that the action is sinful.

Protestants, once again, are fully aware that actions such as murder, adultery, etc. are sins that intrinsically separate us from God. The fact that many Protestants irrationally insist that “white lies” and similar actions are equally grave isn’t relevant to the question of Protestant responsibility for grave sin; nor is the fact that many Protestants believe that (at least technically) grave sin does not separate a believer from God.

It may be a bit odd for me to feel insulted by your charitable and well-meant post (especially since we could argue over the sense in which I am a Protestant. . . . ), but I do–I feel much as I did as a kid when I discovered in a book about the law that I was presumed incapable of committing a crime. It’s a bit like the Dorothy Sayers play about Faust in which Faust has the choice between being a black dog for all eternity (basically limbo) or going to hell (though it turns out to be more like purgatory).

I assert my human dignity, which as Chesterton said is tied up with being damnable. I am not a black do. . … . Woof! Woof Woof Woof! Woof Woof. . . . . .
 
First off, let me say that we cannot know who mortally sins and who doesn’t, protestant or Catholic. It is not our place to judge this. We can judge if a sin is grave in nature or not, which protestants and Catholics can both commit these sins. It is our responsibility to let people know when they commit a sin that is grave in nature, but we cannot know that it is actually a mortal sin for them.

To answer your question though, of course protestants CAN commit mortal sin. This is because your argument presupposes that they cannot know the truth which is not necessarily true.

For example, let us say that a pastor, in reading the gospel of John for the 100th time, finally sees that Jesus wasn’t being metaphorical. He recognizes that the communion he calibrates isn’t what Jesus had in mind and that the Catholic Church has it right. In reflecting on this concept, he like so many of us, decides to ignore what he discovered and continue being a pastor of his protestant denomination. He does this because he cannot afford to become Catholic since he would lose his income and he has a family to support. What he has done is ignored the Holy Spirit and not placed his trust in God to provide for him. This would be a mortal sin because all of the criteria would be met. Grave matter, know the right thing, and purposefully do the wrong thing.

The point is, you cannot say what a protestant knows to be true and what they are failing to act on. You cannot know what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them and what they have wittingly ignored. So to say that a protestant CANNOT commit a mortal sin would not be accurate.

God Bless.
I disagree with you. What about Hitler and the die hard Nazis? What about Lenin and Stalin and their cohorts? And I am not even considering Mao Tse Tung!
How about the commanding officers of Auschwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka and the heads of the Soviet Gulags in Siberia? Even Ilse Koch, the wife of the commandant of Auschwitz who made lampshades from the tattooed skins of prisoners she had murdered, committed suicide while incarcerated rather than live out a life sentance. And, of course there is always Albert Speer, who also committed suicide in prison.
I know it is the Christian thing to forgive others, but when the sins are so public and enormous…
 
From personal experience, I know that more people are willing to obey “universal” laws (not killing, stealing, lying, etc.) which I feel are guided by our conscience over religious laws (having to receive communion every Sunday). Because of the Catholic definition of mortal sin, part of me doesn’t want to tell others about Catholicism since they can potentially reject it and would then be subject to punishment in hell. Then, I’d be partially responsible for how they spend eternity. Sometimes, I feel that OUT OF LOVE, I might just encourage people to follow the “universal” laws that I mentioned above instead of bringing up religious laws that they are likely to reject. By not knowing Catholic laws, they won’t be able to reject them.

I know that Jesus commanded us to spread the Gospel, but He also said that the greatest commandment was to love God and your neighbors. So which commandment trumps the other?
 
If that was done, it would contradict [1 Jn 5:16…]
Boy, you chose the best example of one who was worried with good deeds, it was Paul. I must preach, battle the good battle, reach to the farthest points on earth.
If you want to keep the distinction and dwell on it, no problem for me. But it is not thinking over and over on it that this will lead you anywhere.

I see too much suffering for this disctinction when if you do good deeds who reach the same goal, even better: Alms to the poor wil erase a multitude of sins, says the Bible and I reading 1 minute ago the Eritrea people 10% of whom, christians, are in jail and ask for help. 50% of the christian have passed through jai. They need us. That is a more useful thought.

Do good, better, optimum and all the rest will come. As At. Augustin said, Love God and do whatever you want.
 
Boy, you chose the best example of one who was worried with good deeds, it was Paul. I must preach, battle the good battle, reach to the farthest points on earth.
If you want to keep the distinction and dwell on it, no problem for me. But it is not thinking over and over on it that this will lead you anywhere.

I see too much suffering for this disctinction when if you do good deeds who reach the same goal, even better: Alms to the poor wil erase a multitude of sins, says the Bible and I reading 1 minute ago the Eritrea people 10% of whom, christians, are in jail and ask for help. 50% of the christian have passed through jai. They need us. That is a more useful thought.

Do good, better, optimum and all the rest will come. As At. Augustin said, Love God and do whatever you want.
Paul was interested in getting souls to heaven, and saving them from hell.

Mortal and venial sin exists. Heaven and hell exists. “today I put before you life and death, blessings and curses, choose life” [Dt 39:19]

Everybody wants to go to heaven when they die. Many, maybe most, expect heaven when they die. How many people don’t want to follow the rules to get there… Will they go just the same? Since it was the Holy Spirit guiding the apostles to teach and what to teach regarding sin, we know how God will judge mortal sin if one dies in them. Period dot end of sentence. Paul had to warn some over and over again about sins that prevent one from heaven. iow, they were ignoring him, or weren’t taking him seriously, or maybe they thought they had plenty of time to sin before they died, who knows what the situation was. But they weren’t changing their behavior so Paul kept warning them. No need for ANYone to die in mortal sin, Ergo, since none of us knows the date or the time we will die, it’s absolutely foolish if one is in mortal sin to avoid or postpone sacramental confession. If we aren’t vigilant stewards of our own souls, whose fault is that?

That’s my :twocents:
 
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