Protestants can not mortally sin

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Paul was interested in getting souls to heaven, and saving them from hell.

Mortal and venial sin exists. Heaven and hell exists. “today I put before you life and death, blessings and curses, choose life” [Dt 39:19]

Everybody wants to go to heaven when they die. Many, maybe most, expect heaven when they die. How many people don’t want to follow the rules to get there… Will they go just the same? Since it was the Holy Spirit guiding the apostles to teach and what to teach regarding sin, we know how God will judge mortal sin if one dies in them. Period dot end of sentence. Paul had to warn some over and over again about sins that prevent one from heaven. iow, they were ignoring him, or weren’t taking him seriously, or maybe they thought they had plenty of time to sin before they died, who knows what the situation was. But they weren’t changing their behavior so Paul kept warning them. No need for ANYone to die in mortal sin, Ergo, since none of us knows the date or the time we will die, it’s absolutely foolish if one is in mortal sin to avoid or postpone sacramental confession. If we aren’t vigilant stewards of our own souls, whose fault is that?

That’s my :twocents:

I agree with you so what is the question?
The only think it is too much me, me, me. What about the others?
And again, it is not talking all the time about AIDS that you avoid catching it. It is having the right behavior.
It is not talking all the time about the basketball score that you gain games. It is throwing the 3-point on target all the time.
Remember, 70% (or more) of the world population does not go to confession. Are they predestined to hell?

 

[Publisher]

I agree with you so what is the question?
The only think it is too much me, me, me. What about the others?
And again, **it is not talking all the time about AIDS that you avoid catching it. It is having the right behavior.**It is not talking all the time about the basketball score that you gain games. It is throwing the 3-point on target all the time.
Remember, 70% (or more) of the world population does not go to confession. Are they predestined to hell?

Just 'cause I had to go there…one can have the correct behavior…do all the “right” things…have all the “right” beliefs and still contact HIV…right behavior, right believing, right acting does not necessarily protect one from a virus.

Carry on!

 

[steve_b]

I agree with you so what is the question?

Not the question but the answer to this thread. Yes Protestants can mortally sin.
P:

The only think it is too much me, me, me. What about the others?
And again, it is not talking all the time about AIDS that you avoid catching it. It is having the right behavior.

True.

discounting of course, one who innocently contracts the virus from a blood transfusion in the hospital. Thank God due to excellent screening protections, that kind of accident is very rare these days, at least in this country…
P:

It is not talking all the time about the basketball score that you gain games. It is throwing the 3-point on target all the time.
Remember, 70% (or more) of the world population does not go to confession. Are they predestined to hell?

• The good news is, no one is predestined to hell. People in hell are there because on their own, they made bad choices and remained obstinate in those choices till the end of their life.

Re: reading about predestination,

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Predestination

 

[OchsFam]

I disagree with you. What about Hitler and the die hard Nazis? What about Lenin and Stalin and their cohorts? And I am not even considering Mao Tse Tung!
How about the commanding officers of Auschwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka and the heads of the Soviet Gulags in Siberia? Even Ilse Koch, the wife of the commandant of Auschwitz who made lampshades from the tattooed skins of prisoners she had murdered, committed suicide while incarcerated rather than live out a life sentance. And, of course there is always Albert Speer, who also committed suicide in prison.
I know it is the Christian thing to forgive others, but when the sins are so public and enormous…

I suppose you are disagreeing with the statement I made regarding knowing if someone has committed a mortal sin.

Even in the situations you mention, you cannot know that they have committed a mortal sin. You can know they committed a sin of grave matter. There isn’t a situation you can mention where you have knowledge of the internal choices, knowledge, addictions, coercion, etc. that the person committing the sin of grave matter has keeping the sin from being mortal. It doesn’t matter if the sin is public or private, that is not one of the criteria for a mortal sin.

Even in the case of Osama Bin Laden, you don’t know that he isn’t in Heaven (or at least Purgatory) just like you cannot know if Hitler is in Heaven (or Purgatory). The Church has not said, and will not say, anyone is in Hell because we just can’t know. What we can know is that they lived lives contrary to Christian virtue and they are not people worth imitating so they will never be canonized. It does not mean they are not in Heaven, it just means their lives did not show any signs of sainthood. Jesus can reveal Himself whenever and however He so chooses. How do you know that Osama did not convert before the bullet pierced his skull or that Hitler didn’t convert before he was killed? What we do know is they were both ignorant of Christ and Christian teaching which may, we hope and pray, have proved to be a door for their salvation.

God Bless.

 

[ufamtobie]

It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?

Link0, satan, would love the Protestant to believe that they cannot commit any sin, whether it be Mortal or Venial. But the truth is they can commit mortal or venial sins any one that says they never committed mortal or venial sins whether Catholic or Protestant is making God to be a liar, and as we know God don’t know how to lie, God said we all have sinned…

Regarding “Faith Alone” Does not Satan have as much “faith alone” to know that Jesus Christ died for His people and rose from the dead… Yes, satan does now…so faith alone is not enough, without Good works…

Ufam Tobie

 

[Publisher]

Link0, satan, would love the Protestant to believe that they cannot commit any sin, whether it be Mortal or Venial. But the truth is they can commit mortal or venial sins any one that says they never committed mortal or venial sins whether Catholic or Protestant is making God to be a liar, and as we know God don’t know how to lie, God said we all have sinned…

Regarding “Faith Alone” Does not Satan have as much “faith alone” to know that Jesus Christ died for His people and rose from the dead… Yes, satan does now…so faith alone is not enough, without Good works…
Ufam Tobie

Not an accurate definition of “Faith alone” as understood by Protestants…Faith includes trusting in, relying on, holding fast to among other things…“satan” does not trust in God…rely on God, hold fast to God, nor “other things”…“Faith alone” includes ALL and more…something “satan” does not share in the least…not an accurate equation between “faith alone” and “satan’s faith”.

 

[7_Sorrows]

protestants understand the ramification of sin and that sin separates us from God.
the know of the 10 commandments. they are familiar with free will. they try to avoid all sin as do Catholics,

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Just 'cause I had to go there…one can have the correct behavior…do all the “right” things…have all the “right” beliefs and still contact HIV…right behavior, right believing, right acting does not necessarily protect one from a virus.

Carry on!

You understood what I said which had nothing to do with a baby catching the virs on birth or an hemophilic ctaching the virus through transfusion. We were not talking about that.

I could twist your argument to a delirious direction saying that the … it is better not to have the correct beahvior … we can catch the virus anyway…

We wer not talking about that.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Not the question but the answer to this thread. Yes Protestants can mortally sin.

True.

discounting of course, one who innocently contracts the virus from a blood transfusion in the hospital. Thank God due to excellent screening protections, that kind of accident is very rare these days, at least in this country…

• The good news is, no one is predestined to hell. People in hell are there because on their own, they made bad choices and remained obstinate in those choices till the end of their life.

Re: reading about predestination,

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Predestination

I told I agree mostly with you but…

I would not talk about mortal sins but choices, wether pro or against God. That was the choice of the Angels. Jesus said that Hell was created for the Angels who Chose to be against God.

Again the hospital HIV…!!! I was not talking about hospitals (!!!), the argument was another. Please see the forest, not only the trees.

Let’s forget old clavinistic predestination. Thanks for the link, but I know what it is.
Again, 70% of the world does not go to confession.

 

[ufamtobie]

Not an accurate definition of “Faith alone” as understood by Protestants…Faith includes trusting in, relying on, holding fast to among other things…“satan” does not trust in God…rely on God, hold fast to God, nor “other things”…“Faith alone” includes ALL and more…something “satan” does not share in the least…not an accurate equation between “faith alone” and “satan’s faith”.

Publisher,

Hmmm it seems you have forgotten that satan once had “the trust in God” “once relyed on God” “once hold fast to God” Once had “Faith Alone” in God, but he ran out of “GOOD WORKS” and look where he is now. Kicked out.

Publisher, satan has faith in God for he has seen God face to face!

“Religious faith is a belief in a transcendent reality, a religious teacher, a set of teachings or a Supreme Being.”

The supreme Being, is God. Yes, the Devil has this faith but He is now lacking the Good Works. This is why “Faith Alone” can not save you. Having Faith Alone is one being on the same level with satan. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[JonNC]

=ufamtobie;8395238]

Hmmm it seems you have forgotten that satan once had “the trust in God” “once relyed on God” “once hold fast to God” Once had “Faith Alone” in God, but he ran out of “GOOD WORKS” and look where he is now. Kicked out.

Perhaps he did, but it is not simply that he “ran out of good works”. He rejected God. One can be justified by grace through faith, then execise free will and reject grace.

Publisher, satan has faith in God for he has seen God face to face!

He has belief in God, but not faith.

The supreme Being, is God. Yes, the Devil has this faith but He is now lacking the Good Works. This is why “Faith Alone” can not save you. Having Faith Alone is one being on the same level with satan. Amen

Grace saves you. Christ’s suffering death and resurrection saves you. We access justification by His grace through faith. But faith must be sincere. It must be a faith that works through love. A faith that does not work is a false faith, a dead faith, a faith that does not save.

Jon

 

[steve_b]

I would not talk about mortal sins but choices, wether pro or against God. That was the choice of the Angels. Jesus said that Hell was created for the Angels who Chose to be against God.

And next in hell would be humans who sinned mortally and died in mortal sin.
P:

Let’s forget old clavinistic predestination. Thanks for the link, but I know what it is.
Again, 70% of the world does not go to confession.

I wasn’t sure where you were when you asked that question “are they predestined to hell?”. Thanks for the clarification. I see confession as medicine for the soul. Catholics who don’t go to confession and take advantage of the graces from that sacrament is absolute lunacy on their part. It’s possible, many of those, at their death, will regret being so stupid. As far as the world, I just leave that up to God. He told us what to do 2000 years ago. All I can say, I’ll do my best to do what He said, and pass on the faith the best I know, to others.

 

[CompSciGuy]

A belief in the doctrine of mortal and venial sins is not necessary for one to have “full knowledge” of its gravity.

A protestant can know, for example, that adultery is a sin of grave matter; it hurts his family, his wife, himself, etc. and severely damages the trust involved in marriage, let alone the fact that it is very much against God’s will. He/she can know these things and with full consent commit adultery for selfish purposes; he/she has committed mortal sin. The same is true of an atheist, a buddhist, etc.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

And next in hell would be humans who sinned mortally and died in mortal sin.

So, suppose many of the sinners who have got vices (are not most of us like that?), say a prostitute who though she wants, she cannot escape the kind of life, but she goes to confession and communion in the morning but she cannot escape the lifestyle she has, no matter what.

So, in a year, she will be 365 times in mortal sin and 365 in grace, 365 times going to heaven, 365 times goind to hell?

If whe is lucky to die during the times of grace, she will go to heave, she is has the disgrace to die while in times of mortal sin, she goes to hell.

Is is so that things work with Catholic Doctine?

 

[steve_b]

So, suppose many of the sinners who have got vices (are not most of us like that?), say a prostitute who though she wants, she cannot escape the kind of life, but she goes to confession and communion in the morning but she cannot escape the lifestyle she has, no matter what.

So, in a year, she will be 365 times in mortal sin and 365 in grace, 365 times going to heaven, 365 times goind to hell?

If whe is lucky to die during the times of grace, she will go to heave, she is has the disgrace to die while in times of mortal sin, she goes to hell.

Is is so that things work with Catholic Doctine?

IMO you’re overthinking this. One doesn’t go to confession every day for 365 days/yr and immediately goes out and commits the same mortal sins each day right after confession. The purpose of confession and absolution is ACT on what you just confessed, i.e. to STOP what you are doing becausae you’re really sorry and don’t want to do it again. You’re to amend your life, not continue in it with no intention of changing. You’re describing someone who has no intention of changing. Ergo they aren’t sorry for what they’ve done. Guess what? No sorrow, no intention of stopping to sin mortally,… there’s no forgiveness,

Look at the words of the act of contrition which we are supposed to say immediately after getting our penance

"oh my God I’m heartely sorry for having offended you, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell. But most of all because they offend you my God who is all good and worthy of all my love. And I firmly resolve with the help of your grace to confess my sins, do penance and amend my life…amen"

Words need to be followed up with action, otherwise words are empty

 

[You]

It seems protestants can not mortally sin b/c without such a concept of mortal and venial sins, and their sincere belief in “faith alone”, there cannot be a fulfillment of the prerequisite of “full knowledge”. They would not take pause or have full knowledge that a certain action they are about to do would cause separation from God. So they can never actually commit a mortal sin but only a venial sin at most. This means that unless they research and become aware of the Catholic teaching they simply cannot commit any sin worthy of hell. For them salvation truly is by “faith alone”.

Is this a correct way of seeing this situation?

He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

Would this apply to them also if they were scripture alone?

 

[Contarini]

So, suppose many of the sinners who have got vices (are not most of us like that?), say a prostitute who though she wants, she cannot escape the kind of life, but she goes to confession and communion in the morning but she cannot escape the lifestyle she has, no matter what.

So, in a year, she will be 365 times in mortal sin and 365 in grace, 365 times going to heaven, 365 times goind to hell?

If whe is lucky to die during the times of grace, she will go to heave, she is has the disgrace to die while in times of mortal sin, she goes to hell.

Is is so that things work with Catholic Doctine?

No. It’s not clear what you mean by the prostitute “not being able” to escape. It’s never the situation that one is forced to sin. If you literally mean that she’s not consenting and is being raped, then obviously she’s not sinning. If you simply mean that she can’t see any other way to provide for her basic needs, or that she is terrified of what her pimp will do to her, or something of that sort, then she’s sinning, but very probably not sinning mortally given the extenuating circumstances. That’s where those of us who are in relatively comfortable circumstances need to hold off on the judgment and do our best through prayers and works of charity to help those who are in such terrible circumstances.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

A belief in the doctrine of mortal and venial sins is not necessary for one to have “full knowledge” of its gravity.

A protestant can know, for example, that adultery is a sin of grave matter; it hurts his family, his wife, himself, etc. and severely damages the trust involved in marriage, let alone the fact that it is very much against God’s will. He/she can know these things and with full consent commit adultery for selfish purposes; he/she has committed mortal sin. The same is true of an atheist, a buddhist, etc.

Precisely. Thanks for putting it so clearly!

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

From personal experience, I know that more people are willing to obey “universal” laws (not killing, stealing, lying, etc.) which I feel are guided by our conscience over religious laws (having to receive communion every Sunday).

You are creating a false dichotomy, jay.

Catholic moral law ought not be separated from these alleged “universal” laws.

Because of the Catholic definition of mortal sin, part of me doesn’t want to tell others about Catholicism since they can potentially reject it and would then be subject to punishment in hell. Then, I’d be partially responsible for how they spend eternity. Sometimes, I feel that OUT OF LOVE, I might just encourage people to follow the “universal” laws that I mentioned above instead of bringing up religious laws that they are likely to reject. By not knowing Catholic laws, they won’t be able to reject them.

This is like saying, “I’m not going to give parents information regarding immunizations, as they can potentially reject it, and then would be subject to disease. Then, I’d be partially responsible for their contracting a horrible disease.” :whacky:

I know that Jesus commanded us to spread the Gospel, but He also said that the greatest commandment was to love God and your neighbors. So which commandment trumps the other?

Again, you are creating a false dichotomy. As with most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or but both/and. With all due respect, Catholics are big enough to both “spread the Gospel” AND “love God and our neighbors.”

It’s like asking, “Are we supposed to love God with our entire heart or with our entire mind?”

The Catholic answer is, “Yes!”