Protestants can you answer these questions?

[Needtostop]

Hi. I think it is more of a matter of how to use this Forum effectively. You have attached a file which is filled with lots of questions. Thus it appears combative, as if you are not really interested in answers. I am sure you don’t mean it that way.

Topics like by faith alone, Baptism and altar call (a Protestant belief) are huge topics by themselves that you can start a thread each on them, for example. Perhaps you can do that.

There are many non-Catholic posters here who have been participating in the Forum for quite a while already, and some of them are able to give good (name removed by moderator)ut to your questions. Not to mention that they have carried themselves quite respectably too. It would be really a disservice for us Catholics if we come up and appear to be lacking in patience and scholarly finesse in posing our argument with them.

Probably it is in this aspect that your naming of the thread is not very appropriate. I would not hold it against you but like I said, you could have compartmentalized your questions more specifically and you’ll probably get more fruitful discussion.

Just my two cents.

God bless.

OK.

 

[JonNC]

OK.

Honestly, Needtostop, I will respond to any question you have about what I believe as a Lutheran. If you choose, review my responses to your document, and by all means, let me know if I’ve answered your question, or if you have more.

Jon

 

[Needtostop]

Ok, Got it to open. Way too many questions for one thread, but…

It doesn’t. What do you think scripture leaves out?

The point is that since the bible doesn’t give us a list of all the books that are supposed to be in, then how do we know what books are supposed to be in the bible, if the bible tells us everything that we need to know as Christians? Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear.

Yes, of course we need to love. Galatians describes a saving faith as a faith that works through love.

So if we need to love, then how are we saved by faith alone?

Confession to a pastor/confessor is scriptural.

***OK, so we agree on that. ***

Is there any good work - good in God’s eyes - outside of faith?

***Of course. Why would you think there wasn’t? ***

According to scripture, it is the Church, which, of course, is subject to scripture.

OK, we agree on that.

God is revealed to me everytime I hear the word and receive the sacraments.

We agree on that as well.

If one has a true, saving faith, and not a dead faith, why would choose to not labor for the food that leads to eternal life?

***If one would already choose that anyway, than why would the Bible even need to tell us to do so? ***

Indeed. For God so loved the world… Not part of it.

***Yes, God loves everyone in the world. So if being saved is only something that God did, then why are some people not saved? If it something that we DID, then that must be a work. ***

Your understanding of sola fide is incorrect. Please find me a source that says that sola fide means we don’t have to be obedient to Christ’s commands.

It doesn’t. truth can come from other sources. The creeds are an excellent example.

It doesn’t, because what you’ve said here is unscriptural.
***You’re right. Some people believe that though which is why I asked the question.

---

It doesn’t. However, even Catholics can interpret scripture in areas not dogmatically defined. Correct?
***Yes, but only within the boundaries of Catholic teaching. Meaning that we are not allowed to interpret it in a way that contradicts anything the Church teaches.

---

It doesn’t, and Lutherans don’t, but where does it say you can’t?
***I don’t think that it says you can’t, I just wanted show that it is not required.

---

Don’t most Catholic parishes have a mass on Wednesday?
*
*Yes, but people are not required to attend, unless it is a holy day of obligation.

It doesn’t.
]We agree on that as well.
:coolinoff: Hope I answered all your questions.

 

[JonNC]

=Needtostop;9449963]

The point is that since the bible doesn’t give us a list of all the books that are supposed to be in, then how do we know what books are supposed to be in the bible, if the bible tells us everything that we need to know as Christians? Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear.

Well, as Lutherans, we look at the history of the Church - yes, even before the Reformation.

So if we need to love, then how are we saved by faith alone?

It is by grace alone through faith alone that we are justified. Justification is operatble by faith, and not by works. So, the alone is specific to how we come to justification. But faith cannot be alone. Once regenerate, we are commanded by Christ to do love our neighbor as ourselves.

Confession to a pastor/confessor is scriptural.

OK, so we agree on that.

Yup. Remember, I’m speaking as a Lutheran.

Is there any good work - good in God’s eyes - outside of faith?

Of course. Why would you think there wasn’t?

Because scripture tells us so - filthy rags and all that.

According to scripture, it is the Church, which, of course, is subject to scripture.

OK, we agree on that.

Good.

God is revealed to me everytime I hear the word and receive the sacraments.

We agree on that as well.

getting scary, isn’t it?

If one has a true, saving faith, and not a dead faith, why would choose to not labor for the food that leads to eternal life?

If one would already choose that anyway, than why would the Bible even need to tell us to do so?

Because of our tendancy to sin. For the same reason we go to confess our sins and receive absolution.

Indeed. For God so loved the world… Not part of it.

Yes, God loves everyone in the world. So if being saved is only something that God did, then why are some people not saved? If it something that we DID, then that must be a work.

Well, Lutherans look at free will - which is what you’re talking about - in a passive way. We can’t choose to believe (that comes by grace), but we can choose to reject grace. So, some reject His grace, their choice.

Your understanding of sola fide is incorrect. Please find me a source that says that sola fide means we don’t have to be obedient to Christ’s commands.

It doesn’t. truth can come from other sources. The creeds are an excellent example.

It doesn’t, because what you’ve said here is unscriptural.

You’re right. Some people believe that though which is why I asked the question.

Yes, they do.

It doesn’t. However, even Catholics can interpret scripture in areas not dogmatically defined. Correct?
Yes, but only within the boundaries of Catholic teaching. Meaning that we are not allowed to interpret it in a way that contradicts anything the Church teaches.

Effectively, same with Lutherans. I’m bound as a Lutheran to the Lutheran confessions

It doesn’t, and Lutherans don’t, but where does it say you can’t?
I don’t think that it says you can’t, I just wanted show that it is not required.

Ok.

Don’t most Catholic parishes have a mass on Wednesday?

Yes, but people are not required to attend, unless it is a holy day of obligation.

Generally Lutherans don’t have a Wednesday evening service, except in Advent and Lent. I don’t think its a bad thing, however. The historic Church has always taught us to meet on the Lord’s day, to hear his word and receive His sacraments.

It doesn’t.
We agree on that as well.

Too much agreement! Just kdding.

That’s why some folks here have encouraged you to limit your questions, and perhaps target them a bit more. Now, if you want to have some real fun with Lutherans, ask about the infallibility and universal jurisdiction of the pope, or the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Thanks, in all sincerity, for responding. When we talk to each other, some of the faulty conceptions, on both sides, tend to fall away.

His peace,
Jon

 

[Needtostop]

Well, as Lutherans, we look at the history of the Church - yes, even before the Reformation.

It is by grace alone through faith alone that we are justified. Justification is operatble by faith, and not by works. So, the alone is specific to how we come to justification. But faith cannot be alone. Once regenerate, we are commanded by Christ to do love our neighbor as ourselves.

Where does the bible say this? If it is faith alone then why does the bible say that we are not saved by faith alone? James chapter 2 verse 24-26.

Yup. Remember, I’m speaking as a Lutheran.

Because scripture tells us so - filthy rags and all that.

Where does Scripture say this?
Good.

getting scary, isn’t it?
LOL!

Because of our tendancy to sin. For the same reason we go to confess our sins and receive absolution.

Well, Lutherans look at free will - which is what you’re talking about - in a passive way. We can’t choose to believe (that comes by grace), but we can choose to reject grace. So, some reject His grace, their choice.

So we have to accept God’s grace. That is a work.

Yes, they do.

Effectively, same with Lutherans. I’m bound as a Lutheran to the Lutheran confessions

Ok.

Generally Lutherans don’t have a Wednesday evening service, except in Advent and Lent. I don’t think its a bad thing, however. The historic Church has always taught us to meet on the Lord’s day, to hear his word and receive His sacraments.

Yes, that is true.

Too much agreement! Just kdding. LOL!

That’s why some folks here have encouraged you to limit your questions, and perhaps target them a bit more. Now, if you want to have some real fun with Lutherans, ask about the infallibility and universal jurisdiction of the pope, or the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Let’s finish discussing faith alone, then go on to papal infallibility, then the mass.
Thanks, in all sincerity, for responding. When we talk to each other, some of the faulty conceptions, on both sides, tend to fall away.

His peace,
Jon

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi Jon,

JonNC;9438752]
If one has a true, saving faith, and not a dead faith, why would [one] choose to not labor for the food that leads to eternal life?

This does address a question I’ve had. The question is, if one does have a saving faith, then one does not need to labor for food leading to eternal life since one already has eternal life. That is, you already have eternal life, so that is the end of the story.

Your understanding of sola fide is incorrect. Please find me a source that says that sola fide means we don’t have to be obedient to Christ’s commands.

Well, if we have saving faith, it follows that our faith is what saves us and not being obedient to commands. Being obedient then is superfluous to salvation.

Regards,
Mack

 

[JonNC]

Hi Mack,

=mackbrislawn;9450292]Hi Jon,

This does address a question I’ve had. The question is, if one does have a saving faith, then one does not need to labor for food leading to eternal life since one already has eternal life. That is, you already have eternal life, so that is the end of the story.

That would assume one lacks the free will to, at some time, reject grace. Lutherans reject that assumption.

Well, if we have saving faith, it follows that our faith is what saves us and not being obedient to commands. Being obedient then is superfluous to salvation.

Or, if one fails to be obedient to Christ’s commands, which is sin, and continues in that sin, repeatedly and unrepentent, then faith is either dead, or never was in the first place. Either way, we’re not talking about a saving faith anymore.

Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

JonNC, except being a Lutheran, is very much like us that it’s difficult to really spot our differences with him. We could end up agreeing with him since what he says, we believe too. Even the basic Luther that we oppose, he opposes too, so that’s how close he is to us. I guess, if we are to nail him down, it’s to say the wrong that Luther did was to split from the Church and therefore their priests did not have the apostolic succession. LOL. I am sure he has answer to that too.

I thought this thread should get heavier response from the fundamentalist Protestants or Bible only Christians. The questions posed are really for them to answer.

 

[JonNC]

=Reuben J;9450578]JonNC, except being a Lutheran, is very much like us that it’s difficult to really spot our differences with him. We could end up agreeing with him since what he says, we believe too. Even the basic Luther that we oppose, he opposes too, so that’s how close he is to us

Well, Reuben, while I think you overstate it a bit here, it is true that Lutherans are close to you in many ways. Whether or not I oppose Luther in ways is kind of beside the point. Everything I stated to the OP I can support from the Lutheran confessions

I guess, if we are to nail him down, it’s to say the wrong that Luther did was to split from the Church and therefore their priests did not have the apostolic succession. LOL. I am sure he has answer to that too.

Some Lutherans do have AS, though Rome may not recognize it. And yes, Luther was as wrong to split from the Church as the Church was wrong to, in that time, to not initially listen to his complaints. But even that is not the issue now. The issue now is how to we bring about reconciliation.

I thought this thread should get heavier response from the fundamentalist Protestants or Bible only Christians. The questions posed are really for them to answer.

I was thinking the same thing. In a brief discussion with John Martignoni over on the apostolic side, and from the little I’ve read of him, his apolegeitcs seems directed more toward those types. And in defense of the OP and his use of John’s questions, one has to recognize that they are apolegetics type questions.

Jon

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi Mack,

That would assume one lacks the free will to, at some time, reject grace. Lutherans reject that assumption.

Or, if one fails to be obedient to Christ’s commands, which is sin, and continues in that sin, repeatedly and unrepentent, then faith is either dead, or never was in the first place. Either way, we’re not talking about a saving faith anymore.

Jon

Hi Jon,

Okay, that means Lutherans reject the assumption of lack of free will?

The second paragraph implies faith plus obedience. That is, even if obedience (works) does not save us, it does mean that lack of obedience means lack of salvation.

Do I have it right?

Mack

 

[JonNC]

=mackbrislawn;9452356]Hi Jon,

Okay, that means Lutherans reject the assumption of lack of free will?

Yes, but not in terms of how we come to justification. That is by grace alone, through faith.

The second paragraph implies faith plus obedience. That is, even if obedience (works) does not save us, it does mean that lack of obedience means lack of salvation.

It could. But justification is by grace alone through faith. This is how one accesses justification. Sanctification, however, must certainly follow. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we participate in our sanctification by doing the good works prepared for us to do. We also participate in the means of grace - hearing the word and receiving the sacraments, which strengthens us in our lives of faith. James tells us clearly that if we have a real, saving faith, good works will follow, must follow, or it is a dead faith.

I often quote Luther here, because it he speaks so clearly about this:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

The Apostle bars the way of hypocrits on all sides - those that claim they can “good works” their way to justification, and those that claim that good works of the regenerate are not necessary.
By faith alone we come to justification, but it must be a faith that works through love.
Christ speaks of 2 things, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”
Good works, charity, love for our fellowman is how we respond to His grace, to the love He shows toward us while we were still in our sins.

And from the Formula of Concord:

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

If we intentionally persevere in sin (not doing good works), we won’t retain saving faith. And be clear, the writer is speaking of the regenerate.

Jon

 

[Needtostop]

It is by grace alone through faith alone that we are justified. Justification is operatble by faith, and not by works. So, the alone is specific to how we come to justification. But faith cannot be alone. Once regenerate, we are commanded by Christ to do love our neighbor as ourselves.
JonNC;9450129:

If we need to love, then it is not by grace through faith alone but grace through faith and works, as loving someone is a work.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC;9450129:

It is by grace alone through faith alone that we are justified. Justification is operatble by faith, and not by works. So, the alone is specific to how we come to justification. But faith cannot be alone. Once regenerate, we are commanded by Christ to do love our neighbor as ourselves.
JonNC;9450129:

If we need to love, then it is not by grace through faith alone but grace through faith and works, as loving someone is a work.

Not for justification. Justification is by grace alone through faith. St. Paul makes this clear in numerous passages. From the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:

.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: **By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works **

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

How, then do we respond to His grace that justifies though faith? We do all we can to follow His commands, to obey the commandments, and do the good works that He calls us to do, even though our efforts are weak, as St. Paul complains about:

For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do. 16 If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not. 19 For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. 24 Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Is it true that to remain in His saving grace we must obey? Well, of course. To remain in sin, unrepented, can cost us the faith that justifies.

Jon

 

[Needtostop]

Needtostop;9454906:

JonNC;9450129:

It is by grace alone through faith alone that we are justified. Justification is operatble by faith, and not by works. So, the alone is specific to how we come to justification. But faith cannot be alone. Once regenerate, we are commanded by Christ to do love our neighbor as ourselves.

Not for justification. Justification is by grace alone through faith. St. Paul makes this clear in numerous passages. From the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

How, then do we respond to His grace that justifies though faith? We do all we can to follow His commands, to obey the commandments, and do the good works that He calls us to do, even though our efforts are weak, as St. Paul complains about:

Is it true that to remain in His saving grace we must obey? Well, of course. To remain in sin, unrepented, can cost us the faith that justifies.

Jon

What do you mean by justification?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC;9456145:

Needtostop;9454906:

What do you mean by justification?

From the Smallcald Articles:

…by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.

2] And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ’s sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. 3] Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1:31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. 4] We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

Jon