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down_under
Guest
actually carol he is right. I dont know what wikipedia says. I only know factual history. I do know that when wikiedia gets to history like anyother encyclopedia it gets a bit wobbly.
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
I am a historian by training. I have read the texts, read the books, read the press, been there, done that, got the T-shirt and (sorry) the degree.
I have nothing to say about your US public education system: I was educated in Canada, and have been an international education specialist for 30 years. OK?
Your interpretation of the Crusades is off-base: I am not sure what part of Wikipedia you are looking at. In general, one might say that not one of the Crusades was justified in terms of cost, deaths and achievements. They were disasters.
Briefly Islam spread throughout Europe as far as Spain, and the rest of the world learned most of its mathematics and astronomy inter alia from Islam. (Bernard Lewin, *The World of Islam). *
It is perhaps true to say that your insight into the intentions of Muslims to kill all of us is also wobbly, perhaps as a result of the propaganda of a conservative US administration stuck in a war that it does not know what to do with.
Some of my best friends are Muslims. We went to the theatre with some of them last night. We are still alive! We had a lovely evening together! The play focused on the difficulties of ‘coloured’ (ie mixed black and white people) and ‘white’ people communicating with each other during the apartheid period in South Africa. There are times when we need to keep all channels of communication as open as we can, along with our minds.
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Michael_Howard
Guest
Brother I have to say this honestly and please listen carefully: if you did not come here to engage in meaningful dialouge please go somewhere else, the Kingdom of God is not about tearing down but building up. I think that if you were willing to listen as well as share it could be a fruitful dialouge but it seems both your ears and heart are shut tight, probably from fear and uncertainty about your position, that’s usually why people seek out others to attack friendI am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Im just curious as to why you are here then?I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.
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mgrobertson79
Guest
That explains it all. Thank you and goodbye.
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
What on earth is that supposed to mean? How far does your bias extend about the larger world around you?
We are discussing whether Protestants can be saved, and have come a bit off topic. Perhaps with a bit of pushing and shoving we can get it back on track. Problem is that when there are holy terrors around, the principal focus can become distorted.
I wonder therefore if it would be useful to push the Ignore Button on our friend **HalleluYAH **so that the discussion can continue. He is being watched on a number of other threads which he is also discomposing (decomposing?), dancing with heavy feet through the Forum. Please don’t let him do that unless his observations, opinions, facts, insults are truly stimulating!
Blessings
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
Please see my post #200 for a reply that does not need to be repeated. The principal point, which you seem to have missed, is that we can understand the actions of feudal Islamic ‘terrorists’ better if we know that there were Crusaders of the same feudal ilk some centuries ago. The Islam you fear reflects our own righteousness, but just a few centuries later: do not forget that history teaches.
Another poster has continued, as you have done, with the Crusades issue, not me. Now let’s get back on topic.
I really, really would like to know why Catholic Christians are concerned so greatly about bringing all the lost sheep back into the fold. I have asked the question about five times now, but have not got a reply. Why is it so important? I am not sure that it is because you want to save our souls from eternal damnation. I have suggested a number of other possible motives, and I am sure there are others. But where on earth does this battle start from?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Whoever listens to you, listens to me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me and the one who sent me.I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.
Who did Jesus speak these words to?
The Apostles, predecessors of the bishops.
Futile words?
I don’t think so.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Jesus said, “Make disciples of all nations.”
There ae some who are not Christians at all, and they need to be evangelized.
There are others who have some truth and they, too, need to hear the full gospel.
On this board, however, most of us are here to answer questions and correct misunderstanding and error.
I’m not here to evangelize; I’m here to apologize (defend).
Just watch the threads - about once a day someone starts a thread with one or two or a dozen accusations against the Catholic Church.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
Is it not possible for you to push the Ignore Button on HalleluYAH?Im just curious as to why you are here then?
Code:
You click on 'Profile' in the toolbar at the top, click on 'Buddy/Ignore List' then add his name to the 'Ignore List'.
Working to his agenda is not a good use of our time.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Why are you yelling at me I was just asking.
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
Nope, it does not help. I am trying to join the CC, but feel sometimes that I do not want to be pushed into it by anxious Catholics who fear for my soul.
Blessings
Jabulani!
They have their own truths, and it is possible to respect that - Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains etc.
If they hear the Catholic Teaching, and reject it, then they are without doubt bound for hell. So perhaps it is necessary to think before telling people the Catholic doctrines.
There is perhaps an element of defensiveness about some of the answers: I found that when I came on board to learn and not to attack. I have also found it hard to adhere to the idea that I must accept CC Teaching with grace and humility as the One Absolute Truth. I accept however that, as this is principally a Catholic Forum, it is absolutely your right to teach and instruct, although correction is hard to take at times.
That is not your net output: you actually sound as if you are blackmailing people into joining CC by saying that if one does not do so, one is damned to hell. It’s hard to reply to that. I am not being provocative - I am between two stools as a would-be convert.
I agree, and the practice is egregious. However, it is not necessary to respond to those who seek to drive their agenda through the Forum. You can push the Ignore Button (I found out too late to avoid trauma), or just ignore those who are patently outrageous or mad or shamefully provocative. There are a number of them on the Forum right now, we know who some of them are, and we do not need to respond to them, or give them power over those who are really questing. Besides, they can’t spell for the most part, are inarticulate, and usually plain unsmart. I know this is uncharitable, but I am feeling that way right now so I can share it with you.
Blessings
Jabulani!
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Carol_Coombe
Guest
Arrrrggghhhh! I was NOT yelling at you. Yelling is when you write everything IN CAPITAL LETTERS. That’s yelling. I wrote in upper and lower case, with lovely blue colour.Why are you yelling at me I was just asking.
I was trying to attract your attention, and that of others, to the fact that you did not have to be harrassed by this person any longer, and that we could actually get on with the discussion.
I’m sorry that you felt offended. It was not intended!
Blessings
Jabulani!
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Michael_Howard
Guest
**[I said:
Hi Carol,
God bless you and nice to have you here
I guess we should talk about hell, that would be a good place to start. If there is a literal hell as many here believe there is and it’s eternal, than bringing others to know Jesus Christ in the fullness of His church is critical. So I’m curious to hear what you believe about a literal hell, if you do not believe in a literal hell how have your studies brought you to this conclusion?
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mgrobertson79
Guest
St. Ignatius of Antioch said; “Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;
Eph. iv. 5. and one Church which the holy apostles established from one end of the earth to the other by the blood of Christ, and by their own sweat and toil; it behoves you also, therefore, as “a peculiar people, and a holy nation,” Tit. ii. 14; 1 Pet. ii. 9 to perform all things with harmony in Christ.”
Do we sound unified? It doesn’t to me. The early fathers of the Church would know how Christians should live and worship.
Again he says; “Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth904904 Literally, “into.” ] the unity of His blood; one altar”
The message here is unity. There was no “reformation” in the 1500’s but a great schism, where many left the Church of Christ.
St. Irenaeus also; "The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations “Of God” is added from the old Latin of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” Eph. i. 10. and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” Phil. ii. 10, 11. to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” Eph. vi. 12. and 331 the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.
The Church of the New Testament did not end with the end of the Scriptures. The Church is the one who brought us the Scriptures, safe from the heresies of the day. The recurring theme in most all the writings is unity. There is but one Church that can trace it’s lineage all the way back to Christ and there have been no departures from the faith along that line. This is the unity that Christ wanted, the One True Church, established by Christ on the rock of St. Peter.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.iv.html
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xi.html
Eph. iv. 5. and one Church which the holy apostles established from one end of the earth to the other by the blood of Christ, and by their own sweat and toil; it behoves you also, therefore, as “a peculiar people, and a holy nation,” Tit. ii. 14; 1 Pet. ii. 9 to perform all things with harmony in Christ.”
Do we sound unified? It doesn’t to me. The early fathers of the Church would know how Christians should live and worship.
Again he says; “Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth904904 Literally, “into.” ] the unity of His blood; one altar”
The message here is unity. There was no “reformation” in the 1500’s but a great schism, where many left the Church of Christ.
St. Irenaeus also; "The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations “Of God” is added from the old Latin of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” Eph. i. 10. and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” Phil. ii. 10, 11. to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” Eph. vi. 12. and 331 the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.
- As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same."
The Church of the New Testament did not end with the end of the Scriptures. The Church is the one who brought us the Scriptures, safe from the heresies of the day. The recurring theme in most all the writings is unity. There is but one Church that can trace it’s lineage all the way back to Christ and there have been no departures from the faith along that line. This is the unity that Christ wanted, the One True Church, established by Christ on the rock of St. Peter.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.iv.html
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xi.html
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Carol-
This is a remarkable assessment of my nearly 2,000 posts in this forum.
As Protestant member, Kaycee, can attest, I have argued in another thread specifically about how and why non-Christians can be saved as the Catholic Church teaches. And although I think it is something of a risk for a Christian to forego formal communion with the Catholic Church, I don’t recall ever telling anyone in this forum that they are damned to hell - despite receiving similar sentiments from the fundamentalists who waltz in here to tell us a thing or two. I do understand invincible ignorance.
Are you sure you haven’t confused me with someone else?
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Due to failing charity this thread is now closed.
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