Protestants Christians but not Churches?!!

[mikeyrobbie]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

 

[1ke]

I suggest you read the catechism section on the Church.

The term Church has a very specific meaning in the Catholic faith, one not shared by our non-Catholic brothers and sisters.

A Church is a visible body with the Bishop as its head. Therefore, those who have valid apostolic succession – true bishops and true sacraments-- are indeed true particular Churhes. The Orthodox, for example, are true Churches.

Those without valid apostolic succession are not true Churches. They are referred to as ecclesial communions.

And yes, those in ecclesial communions that baptize in the Trinity are indeed Christians by virtue of that baptism. The Church settled that question in the 2nd century.

Again, read the Catechism for further discussion on this topic.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

Christ founded one Church, not many churches. Your priest is correct. They can be referred to a ecclesial communities, but they cannot properly be called Christian “Churches”. There is only one Christian Church, the Catholic Church. The Protestant communities are all denominations of this one Church. The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the original from which the others divided. This all has to do with the fact that Christ is the head and we are his body, the Church. It is therefore impossible for there to be more than one Chrisitan “Church”. To the extent that they belong to Christ, they belong to the Catholic Church, and we consider them our brothers and sisters in Christ, though not in full communion with his Church.

In the common, modern useage of the word “church” I wouldn’t make a big deal about it. Even buildings are referred to as “churches” but it is important that we understand the difference.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

That’s a mind twister

Protestants are christians by virtue of their baptism they are in the kingdom of God but not in the body of Christ which is the Church by biblical definition. Church = body of Christ

Non-catholics (and some protestants) do not believe in a True presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. So the former cannot worship God without a valid "True presence of Jesus Christ body, blood, soul and divinity. Because “No one goes before the Father in heaven except through Jesus”.

Although non-catholic Christians believe in a symbol of bread and drink symbolizing Jesus last supper to recall the last supper event not to participate in it with Jesus true presence as Catholic believe.

What is difficult is defining how non catholics relate to Jesus in a spiritual sense, but it lacks Truth because Jesus is not present to them body, blood, soul and divinity in order to worship God in Spirit and Truth.

Jesus teaches that the True worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth.

Church = Body of Christ

Worship in Spirit and Truth = Jesus is Truth and God is Spirit. One must have both realities in order to worship God in Spirit and Truth.

 

[Barbkw]

Theologically speaking, Catholics have one Church. Non-catholics have various denominations of belief.

 

[Publisher]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

You are correct…in Protestant belief it makes no sense. Any and all who have taken on Christ in faith and has received forgiveness of sins through faith ARE members of God’s Church…baptized into the Body of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. The Church is not an earthly institution in Protestant belief…the Church is made of living stones, not made with hands…the Church visible is “transdenomination”…all who have been forgiven and place their faith in Christ ARE members of His Church.

 

[manualman]

Don’t underestimate the power of cultural assumption. You grew up in America, right? America’s culture has a strong legacy of protestant pilosophy, you know that, right? Have you considered that the problem is that you’ve all your life adopted an erroneous definition of what “church” is. Protestants, like catholics, believe that there is only one real church. But it became rather absurd to claim “We are the one true church: the third church of the Presbo-Lutheran Conference, Lousiana Synod, Reformed!” (joke credit: The Simpsons, believe it or not!) Recognizing the absurdity before it got that bad, the early protestants decided that the true church was an INVISIBLE association of the faithful that encompassed all believers. This saved them from tons of biskering and dovetails with a problem protestants have of being suspicious at best of claiming that ANYTHING in this material world can provide spiritual benefits.

But this is entirely a protestant invention. Catholicism since the days of the apostles has always taught that the Church is “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.” Sound familiar? It should! (Creed) The one true church is both visible and invisible. Gatherings of of christians that have embraced Christ but rejected His Church (often through no real fault of their own) shouldn’t be spoken of as “other churches.” That’s accepting a faulty definition of what church IS. The proper term for them is “christian ecclesial communities.” What a mouthful! I certainly agree there needs to be a simpler term (Curia types seem to love big words, don’t they?), but nobody has asked my opinion…

 

[Nicea325]

Don’t underestimate the power of cultural assumption. You grew up in America, right? America’s culture has a strong legacy of protestant pilosophy, you know that, right? Have you considered that the problem is that you’ve all your life adopted an erroneous definition of what “church” is. Protestants, like catholics, believe that there is only one real church. But it became rather absurd to claim “We are the one true church: the third church of the Presbo-Lutheran Conference, Lousiana Synod, Reformed!” (joke credit: The Simpsons, believe it or not!) Recognizing the absurdity before it got that bad, the early protestants decided that the true church was an INVISIBLE association of the faithful that encompassed all believers. This saved them from tons of biskering and dovetails with a problem protestants have of being suspicious at best of claiming that ANYTHING in this material world can provide spiritual benefits.

But this is entirely a protestant invention. Catholicism since the days of the apostles has always taught that the Church is “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.” Sound familiar? It should! (Creed) The one true church is both visible and invisible. Gatherings of of christians that have embraced Christ but rejected His Church (often through no real fault of their own) shouldn’t be spoken of as “other churches.” That’s accepting a faulty definition of what church IS. The proper term for them is “christian ecclesial communities.” What a mouthful! I certainly agree there needs to be a simpler term (Curia types seem to love big words, don’t they?), but nobody has asked my opinion…

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is very true America’s culture has a strong legacy of Protestant philosophy. Even the U.S. History which was taught at times was riddled with errors and biased information. I remember being taught that Jamestown was the oldest town or settlement in the U.S. Not true. If I am correct, St. Augustine,FL is the oldest going back to 1567.

 

[Publisher]

Catholics are among the first to proclaim that there is only ONE Church…which Protestants too affirm…our denominations are not “church”…but organizations through which the Church works…yet Catholics claim we are not truly “churches”…yet the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are “churches” too…how many Churches are there? How can all the “apostolic” be “Churches” plural…but only “One Holy Church”…to my common sensibility…there’s still at the minumum “one church too many” with that mind set.

 

[1ke]

Catholics are among the first to proclaim that there is only ONE Church…which Protestants too affirm…our denominations are not “church”…but organizations through which the Church works…yet Catholics claim we are not truly “churches”…yet the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are “churches” too…how many Churches are there? How can all the “apostolic” be “Churches” plural…but only “One Holy Church”…to my common sensibility…there’s still at the minumum “one church too many” with that mind set.

There is one Church.

Particular Churches are those territories under the headship of a Bishop with apostolic succession. In the bible, when Paul is writing to the “Church at… (fill in the blank)” and when John’s vision includes the 7 Churches, this is what it means. Particular Churches headed by a Bishop.

The Orthodox have valid particular Churches headed by a Patriarch or Metropolitan or Bishop. In the Latin Chuch, a diocese headed by a Bishop is a particular Church.

 

[Publisher]

There is one Church.

Particular Churches are those territories under the headship of a Bishop with apostolic succession. In the bible, when Paul is writing to the “Church at… (fill in the blank)” and when John’s vision includes the 7 Churches, this is what it means. Particular Churches headed by a Bishop.

The Orthodox have valid particular Churches headed by a Patriarch or Metropolitan or Bishop. In the Latin Chuch, a diocese headed by a Bishop is a particular Church.

But you are not in communion with the other “one churches”…so how can there be more than one “true chruch”…since the east and west apostolic churches don’t recognize one another as the “true church”…sounds like you folks have your own “Protesteant” problems all on your own.

 

[1ke]

But you are not in communion with the other “one churches”…so how can there be more than one “true chruch”…since the east and west apostolic churches don’t recognize one another as the “true church”…

There is only one Church.

Valid apostolic succession means these are true Particular Churches. They are not different churches. Just as Church has a specific meaning so does particular church.

sounds like you folks have your own “Protesteant” problems all on your own.

Nope. You simply have a misconception of what Church means. Again, I suggest you read the Catechism section on the four marks of the Church for further detail.

 

[mikeyrobbie]

But are protestants Christians who can still go to heaven and be saved?!

 

[1ke]

But are protestants Christians who can still go to heaven and be saved?!

What would lead you to believe otherwise?

Again, get a copy of the Catechism and read the sections I suggested. You can read it online, too.

Catechism paragraph 846 speaks about this topic.

 

[ufamtobie]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

mickierobbie,

Simple, Jesus Christ established only one Church any other church is one church to many.

What the priest is saying that the Protestants are Christians, however they are with out the one and only Church to guide them, thus therefore the reason for so many protestant “churches” that don’t agree with one another.

Beware, don’t let your friends change you from the one and only Church that Christ established here on earth. You are on dangerous Grounds.

Ufamtobie

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

It is kind of like this. Catholic priests named Luther, Knox And Zwingli, and a Catholic Lawyer started this whole Protestant thing…so Protestants are Catholic with a twist…

They stated 4 basic tenets…
1 Sola Scriptura…all we need is the Bible alone, however all they have is translations and they took out some books.
2 Sola Fide…we are saved by Faith alone, the Catholic position is by grace alone, through Faith alone, working in love
3 Extrinsic Justification…they only look justified but internally are not justified, they are acquitted criminals…the Catholic Position is Intrinsic Justification, truly justified as a child of God
4. Denial Church Authority…everyone is a Pope…

What you end up with is streams of thought such as Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian/Reformed and then you have the Anabaptists/menonites/Amish and the Baptists that don’t believe that they are Protestant. The irony is that once they declared no authority and declared the Bible alone they wound up with a messy situation of disgreement that continues to this day and that is why you see so many new and wonderful ideas of what christianity is…many don’t know that they are Protestant.

You can follow trains of thought in time backwards by studying that from whence they came or forward like…Anglican-Methodist-Holiness movement-Pentacostal and the like.

There are many forms of Worship. In the mass we have the Liturgy of the Word as worship and then we segue into the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Protestant has only the Liturgy of the word…

When these priests and the lawyer started their movement, it was a Caucasion, European mindset that did this…you recall Christianity is an Eastern Religion…anyway the Protestants thought was heresy…and in time those that were born into this thought through no fault of their own inherited this thought…now the Church in its wisdom declared that since these children of God are Baptized in the trinitarian formula they are truly christian however in their doctrines they are separated as ecclesial communities.

There is no Protestant Church not like you think of the OHCAC. No one speaks for Protestants as a whole. Each and every Protestant admits that they are fallible so they can never provide any belief that is always true and trustworthy. Recall all the things that the Catholic Priests and Lawyer took with them like the Trinity was hammered out long ago and they accept these Catholic beliefs.

You may want to spend some time on this forum asking questions and some time in the Catechism…I hope this is a foundation for you and a springboard to further understanding.

 

[CopticChristian]

But are protestants Christians who can still go to heaven and be saved?!

Getting into the proper frame of mind. “Be Saved” is protestant Jargon. Catholics believe and profess that salvation is not a one time event, we are saved, being saved and hope to be saved…Protestants believe in getting saved as an event not a process…they break it down into salvation-sanctification-glorification. We believe in Salvation as a process and glorification. There will be some that say that we too believe in Sanctification however I dispute this.

 

[wisdomseeker]

But are protestants Christians who can still go to heaven and be saved?!

I dont know, only God knows. All I do know is the Words that Jesus spoke, whoever hears you hears me and my Father in Heaven, and whoever rejects you, will reject me and my Father…He is not speaking to protestants but to His Holy Church.

they reject the Church Jesus found. This is what we have to go by.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi,

I’ve recently learned a lot about protestantism from all my friends at college (I ironically go to a protestant university).

I talked to my parish priest recently about protestants. He said they were Christians because they preserved two Catholic sacraments marriage and baptism.

He he also said since they didn’t have a valid communion or apostolic succession that they were not Churches.

So Protestants are Christians. But not their places of worships are not Churches. That makes no sense to me.

So on one hand their Christians but their not Churches… How can a protestant worship God without a valid Church?

Here is the 4 marks of the Church.

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/Mod3.html

 

[Publisher]

So it comes down to accordingly to Catholic belief, Protestant gatherings are not really “church”…even though members of the Church are gathering to worship and praise God…HOWEVER according to Protestant belief…the Church consists of when "two or three are gathered together in his name…and He is in their midst…sound like CHURCH to me!