Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[moondweller]

oh no … not the believe what you believe or I’ll burn in an eternal hell Geesh … can’t you guys come up with new material?

Nope. It’s the only material provided.

using ancient mythology as psychological extortion only works on a very small mind … and I have a really big head

I understand. Good luck with that big head of yours. But the reality is, even guys with big heads die.

 

[PRmerger]

IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility.

Moondweller, I think you have been poorly catechized about Catholic teaching on infalliblity regarding interpretation of Scripture.

The Magisterium does NOT claim that their interpretation is the one and only correct interpretation.

Unless you can provide us with a Magisterial document that says this, perhaps? I would be willing to be corrected.

 

[1beleevr]

I tend to see the word “hate” a lot in this forum, but it is usually coming from the catholic side; even if the poster does not explicitly say, " I really hate the catholic church!" In our local paper, ther was a man who wrote a column on Thursdays, and one Thursday, his entire article, was about how tired he was of catholic bashing I believe that catholics are the only ones, that I am aware of, who complain about it! I know that this so-called hatred, is not spawned by jealousy or envy, at least not by me! One thing I have discovered about this Christian walk is; you need to put on your big boy/big girl pants/panties, suck it up, and serve your God! Can you imagine Jesus, sitting on the side of the road, weeping, crying,“They hate me, they all hate me”. Hey, if this Christian walk seems near impossible at times, why not let Him live it through you; besides, He is the only perfect one who ever wore flesh! Or like Cher said once,"Snap out of it Hey, as a Christian, you’re gonna face persecution, hatred, rejection, etc., etc.,etc. Why do you think Jesus told us,“THwy will hate you, because they have hated me.”

 

[Peter_J]

I tend to see the word “hate” a lot in this forum, but it is usually coming from the catholic side; even if the poster does not explicitly say, " I really hate the catholic church!" In our local paper, ther was a man who wrote a column on Thursdays, and one Thursday, his entire article, was about how tired he was of catholic bashing I believe that catholics are the only ones, that I am aware of, who complain about it!

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you, 1beleevr. “Catholic bashing” is very real, it’s out there.

If you’re looking for it on the Catholic Answers Forums, you’re not going to find too much of it. It would make a lot more sense to look for it on a Protestant forum – just as if you were looking for “Protestant bashing”, it would make a lot more sense to look for it on a Catholic forum rather than a Protestant forum.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, I think you have been poorly catechized about Catholic teaching on infalliblity regarding interpretation of Scripture.

The Magisterium does NOT claim that their interpretation is the one and only correct interpretation.

Unless you can provide us with a Magisterial document that says this, perhaps? I would be willing to be corrected.

Maybe your problem is you don’t know what the word “infallible” means. Based on your signature line:“Ever loyal to the Magisterium…ever questioning” it seems you are confused. You may “inquire” but you may not “question” that which is infallible. You, a RC, may interpret Scripture, but your interpretation cannot, must not, contradict your infallible Magisterium. To do so would be heretical.

 

[PRmerger]

You may “inquire” but you may not “question” that which is infallible. You, a RC, may interpret Scripture, but your interpretation cannot, must not, contradict your infallible Magisterium. To do so would be heretical.

Well, if you want to say that my interpretation cannot contradict Christ’s, then…yup, I won’t disagree with you. Why would any Christian want to do that?

Are you still looking for the Magisterial document that proves your statement below? Because, really, moondweller, if you don’t provide it you sound like you don’t know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by **moondweller **
IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility.

 

[distracted]

Well said. The Pope is infallible whenever he makes an ex cathedra statement – which is to say whenever, in the exercise of his office of chief shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines a matter of faith and morals to be believed by all.

(I just hope moondweller overhears our conversation. )

do you get the feeling he may hear… but choose not to hear??

but then, have to confess… i am like that myself… about certian things…

just not the Church… thank God…

 

[distracted]

I gotta a better way to use your free time. Try a good physics, critical thinking, logic, or biology course

It seems to me asking protestants to attend a Catholic catechism class is like me asking theists to read a good Nietzsche book

not hardly.
Catholicism was the first and is the only fully Christian reliigon in the world…

unless you are a dead head - totally non-intellectual or curios, etc… & couldn’t care less what is going on in the world… (can’t do much for those kinds)… ibelieve it behooves us all to understand this One True Church as well as we can…

There is one way to Heaven… Jesus…

There is one Church that He started…

and he wouldn’t have started it if it didn’t do things for us that need to be done… (in order to go to Heavne)

 

[SHW]

ahhh … why bother

Why bother with what?

If you say “the test,” then you really have no concept of eternity!

 

[moondweller]

Well, if you want to say that my interpretation cannot contradict Christ’s, then…yup, I won’t disagree with you. Why would any Christian want to do that?

Are you still looking for the Magisterial document that proves your statement below? Because, really, moondweller, if you don’t provide it you sound like you don’t know what you are talking about.

I clarified my statement, PR, and you agreed with it.

 

[PRmerger]

I clarified my statement, PR, and you agreed with it.

Ah, again you are challenged to support your comment, **Originally Posted by moondweller **IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility.
and come up with…nothing.

sigh

I’ll give you something to ponder, however, from the Magisterium:

“This is why the Church has always considered the act of entrusting oneself to God to be a moment of fundamental decision which engages the whole person. In that act, the intellect and the will display their spiritual nature, enabling the subject to act in a way which realizes personal freedom to the full. It is not just that freedom is part of the act of faith: it is absolutely required” Fides et Ratio

 

[Worthy5]

Your question is based on the false premise that simply because men have presented various interpretations of a Scriptural passage a true interpretation cannot be certain. But Paul wrote to Timothy:2 Tim 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."The burden, however, is upon you to provide proof that your teaching authority is truly “infallible.” IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility. You fully accept their interpretation because you accepted their assertion of infallibility.

Since I’ve been born again through faith in Christ alone, I have a non-denominational Protestant background. Both in formal education (theological) and church fellowship.

The Church has already asserted its indepedent criterion, what is yours. Without that I cannot evaluate the statements you make. God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, again you are challenged to support your comment, **Originally Posted by moondweller **IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility.
and come up with…nothing.

sigh

I’ll give you something to ponder, however, from the Magisterium:

“This is why the Church has always considered the act of entrusting oneself to God to be a moment of fundamental decision which engages the whole person. In that act, the intellect and the will display their spiritual nature, enabling the subject to act in a way which realizes personal freedom to the full. It is not just that freedom is part of the act of faith: it is absolutely required” Fides et Ratio

Here’s some more Magisterial statements, moondweller!

‘What is man and of what use is he? What is good in him and what is evil?’ (Sir 18:8)… These are questions in every human heart, as the poetic genius of every time and every people has shown, posing again and again—almost as the prophetic voice of humanity—the serious question which makes human beings truly what they are. They are questions which express the urgency of finding a reason for existence, in every moment, at life’s most important and decisive times as well as more ordinary times. These questions show the deep reasonableness of human existence, since they summon human intelligence and will to search freely for a solution which can reveal the full meaning of life. These enquiries, therefore, are the highest expression of human nature; which is why the answer to them is the gauge of the depth of his engagement with his own existence. In particular, when the why of things is explored in full harmony with the search for the ultimate answer, then **human reason reaches its zenith **and opens to the religious impulse. The religious impulse is the highest expression of the human person, because it is the highpoint of his rational nature. It springs from the profound human aspiration for the truth and it is the basis of the human being’s free and personal **search **for the divine”: Fides et Ratio

So I guess it’s ok for me to be ever-questioning, moondweller?

I’m wondering, now, if you’re free to question your pastor’s interpretation of Scripture?

 

[SHW]

The Catholic Church rarely pronounces infallible dogmas or teachings concerning the interpretation of Scripture. Usually, this is not done unless the correct interpretation is needed in order to understand the Church’s teachings.

An example is John 6:55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.”

The Catholic Church teaches that this Scripture is literal. We actually eat the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion/Holy Eucharist. Paschal lambs must be literally eaten.

Another one is the Filioque which is one of the reasons for the continuation of the East/West Schism. (Another is papal infallibility.) This Catholic Filioque teaching can be proved by the correct interpretation of Scripture.

The Filioque is the teaching of the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

How do the Three Persons of God work together as One?

Jesus states in John 14:16-18 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

First, Jesus asks His Father to give the Holy Spirit as Helper to the Church on earth.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

Then, the Father Wills (gives) what Jesus asks and wills the Helper to be sent in Jesus’ name to the Church on earth."
**
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father first.**

John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”

John 16:7-15 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

**
First the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and then the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.**

Jesus’ Word (verbally) sends the Holy Spirit (Power) to do the Will of the Father.

(The Father’s Will is to send the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name as Helper to Jesus’ Church on earth.)

The Holy Spirit then fulfills the will of the Father when He is sent by the Son to the Church on earth. So the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The Catholic Church is correct. The Filioque is Truth, so the Orthodox Church is incorrect. The Orthodox Church teaches mostly Truth, but they do not teach all Truth.

This is why there is only one “keeper of the keys of heaven.” Jesus promised His one Church, the one with the “keeper of the keys of heaven,” (the one with the Pope) that He would guide His one Church to teach all His truth on earth until He returns. [John 16:13] His Church’s teachings are infallible/without error. The Holy Spirit prevents His one Church from teaching error. His Church is One, Holy, Catholic/universal, and Apostolic.

He started only One Church.
It is Holy because the Holy Spirit guides it into all truth.
It is Catholic which means universal. His Church is everywhere on earth.
It is Apostolic. It’s hierarchy remains unbroken in lineage since the first Apostles. The hierarachy continued His Church by the laying on of hands for Holy Orders (bishop, priest, and deacon) and this is called Apostolic Succession. [2 Timothy 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:14]

 

[Peter_J]

Ah, again you are challenged to support your comment, **Originally Posted by moondweller **IOW, they claim their interpretation is the one and only correct one because they claim infallibility.
and come up with…nothing.

sigh

I’ll give you something to ponder, however, from the Magisterium:

“This is why the Church has always considered the act of entrusting oneself to God to be a moment of fundamental decision which engages the whole person. In that act, the intellect and the will display their spiritual nature, enabling the subject to act in a way which realizes personal freedom to the full. It is not just that freedom is part of the act of faith: it is absolutely required” Fides et Ratio

I love Fides et Ratio (not that anyone asked ).

 

[Peter_J]

do you get the feeling he may hear… but choose not to hear??

I’m really not sure what to think about moondweller, so it’s probably best that I not say much. As a matter of fact, I regret saying …

I think we should give him a break – he did just admit that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach what he had previously claimed it did.

which may have been needlessly provocative. I think it would have been better if I had stuck to the positive, i.e. if I had said:

I think we should give him a break – he did just agree with us that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the Pope is infallible whenever he speaks on faith and morals.

But anyhow, probably the best thing is just to lift him up in our prayers. Doesn’t much seem like anything I’ve said to him has helped.

 

[PRmerger]

I love Fides et Ratio (not that anyone asked ).

Yup. :clapping: It was the first encyclical that I read from “cover to cover”. I’m re-reading the splendid *Veritatis Splendor *now. Magnficent wisdom! Another testament to the fact that the Magisterium encourages us to question, to ponder, to have 'faith seeking understanding."

It would be interesting to see if moondweller’s religious tradition has any great thinkers and writers in the genre of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anselm, St. Teresa of Avila, Pope JPII, Pope Benedict II…

In fact, I wonder how far back his religious tradition can actually go. Most of the 40,000 denominations can claim lineage no earlier than the 1800s.

 

[moondweller]

So I guess it’s ok for me to be ever-questioning, moondweller?

Not that which you (they) say is “infallible.” Else you imply that it is not.

I’m wondering, now, if you’re free to question your pastor’s interpretation of Scripture?

Of course. I’m free to question any interpretation since I assign the divine attribute of infallibility to no one. Once you assign infallibility to someone, or freely accept their assertion of it, you relinquish your freedom to question. As I said earlier, you may inquire but you may not question.

 

[Memaw]

Not that which you (they) say is “infallible.” Else you imply that it is not.Of course. I’m free to question any interpretation since I assign the divine attribute of infallibility to no one. Once you assign infallibility to someone, or freely accept their assertion of it, you relinquish your freedom to question. As I said earlier, you may inquire but you may not question.

Sounds to me like your splitting hairs, The Pope is infallible because he speaks the Infallible TRUTH of Jesus Christ. As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen once said," The TRUTH is the TRUTH even if nobody believes it and a lie is still a lie even if everybody believes it!" Jesus said. “I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.” Some are offended by being reminded that there are approx. 40.000 different protestant denominations. If you can name just 10 of them and then find out what they disagree on as to their core beliefs, then you will see the division among them. Christ prayed for Unity, not division and His Catholic Church teaches truth and unity. He will not allow HIS Church to do otherwise. It is protected by the Holy Spirit. Not all in it follow the Truth but they have the opportunity to do so, just as Judas had the opportunity to Follow Christ in the TRUTH. What is the purpose of following something that does not contain the fullness of TRUTH??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[PRmerger]

Not that which you (they) say is “infallible.” Else you imply that it is not.

LOL! That’s like saying, “Well, you’re free to examine the truth about science, as long as you agree that gravity exists!” The infallible truth is the infallible truth,

So, yes, I will follow the “infallible” truth of Christ

Of course. I’m free to question any interpretation since I assign the divine attribute of infallibility to no one.

So why would you want to listen to someone whose teachings are no better than your own?

Oh! I get it! So when you disagree with this fallible, non-authoritative preacher (and you most certainly will!), you can just leave and either start your own church, or go church-shopping to find someone whose beliefs mesh with your own. (There’s at least 40,000 of them to choose from, so you’re bound to find one that you agree with.)

I’m guessing you’ve already done that in your life, moondweller–just a hunch, but I’m going to guess that you’ve probably left at least one church in a disagreement.

Seems kind of arrogant to me. “I’m going to find a church that has MY beliefs” rather than the humble, “I’m going to form my beliefs according to the truth of Jesus Christ.”

Once you assign infallibility to someone, or freely accept their assertion of it, you relinquish your freedom to question. As I said earlier, you may inquire but you may not question.

Still looking for that Magisterial document that states we can’t question, moondweller? Can’t find it, huh? So when I showed you just one of the statements with “you MUST question if you’re searching for truth” you missed that?