Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[SHW]

Paul writes:Gal 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."Looks to me like Scripture does wield authority. After all, it is the Word of God and His Word is authority.No, my friend, infallibility means one cannot error.

The Scripture could not shut up everyone under sin except for a person’s belief that the Scripture is true. The Scripture has no authority by itself. Either you believe Paul when he states that this Scripture is the Word of God or you do not.

So-called “Scripture” by itself is but words in a book. A book cannot vouch for its own authentication. It has no power to do so.

It says in the Koran that its Scriptures/verses is/are the Word of God. Both the Bible and Koran are books. Christians believe that the Catholic Church recorded the Word of God in a book called the Bible. Muslims believe that Mohammad recorded the Word of God in the Koran. A science fiction book can claim in its written words that it is the Word of God. The words by themselves have no authority. The question to be answered is this: Do you believe that the author who wrote the words in this book is telling the truth? If you do, then the words in the book are worth believing.

So, since Paul states that Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, we believe what this Scripture states, but we only believe this Scripture to be true because we believe that Paul is telling us the truth about it.

True, infallibility means that one cannot err. This is what I meant. Sorry for my sloppiness.

 

[Memaw]

The Scripture could not shut up everyone under sin except for a person’s belief that the Scripture is true. The Scripture has no authority by itself. Either you believe Paul when he states that this Scripture is the Word of God or you do not.

So-called “Scripture” by itself is but words in a book. A book cannot vouch for its own authentication. It has no power to do so.

It says in the Koran that it is the Word of God. Both the Bible and Koran are books. Christians believe that the Catholic Church recorded the Word of God in a book called the Bible. Muslims believe that Mohammad recorded the Word of God in the Koran. A science fiction book can claim in its written words that it is the Word of God. The words by themselves have no authority. The question to be answered is this: Do you believe that the author who wrote the words in this book is telling the truth? If you do, then the words in the book are worth believing.

So, since Paul states that Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, we believe what this Scripture states, but we only believe this Scripture to be true because we believe that Paul is telling us the truth about it.

True, infallibility means that one cannot err. This is what I meant. Sorry for my sloppiness.

Correction, Infallibility does not mean one cannot error. All men are capable of sinning. In the Catholic Church, Infallible means the Church in Doctrines, her teachings, cannot error. She is protected by the Holy Spirit till the end of time from teaching error no matter who the Pope or Bishops are. That’s why the Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church is the same today as it was when Jesus gave it to HIS apostles 2,000 years ago. Look around, and see who stands strong against all the sinful things going on in our world today. Who speaks out strongly for peace, justice and freedom to follow God’s will. Who defends Marriage as God intended it. Who defends the dignity of all mankind. Who defends life from Conception till natural death. I could go on and on. It is the Catholic Church who does and always will. Sometimes we can’t see the TREE for the forest. God Bless, Memaw.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Correction, Infallibility does not mean one cannot error. All men are capable of sinning. In the Catholic Church, Infallible means the Church in Doctrines, her teachings, cannot error. She is protected by the Holy Spirit till the end of time from teaching error no matter who the Pope or Bishops are.

so then the earth really is at the center of the universe? Hmmm

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Christ has given us the opportunity and expressed the meaning of unconditional Love in which we have the opportunity to obtain through the church and faith. Since the time of creation of man the presents of the Holy Spirit you may say incarnated the world in which exist all mankind; now with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the birth of Pentecost our bodies became the temple of the Holy spirit to reign with Gods’ church and Gods’ creation. The Resurrection of Christ is one of the GREATEST VICTORIES of mankind in hopes of obtaining Heaven on earth in which the Catholic Church teaches the new testament of LIVING FAITH along with the success of the ecumenical council also known as the Second Vatican II. The presents of Jesus love is found in the Church for instance the celebration of the Holy mass praying with sincerity of reunion amongst our brother in reign with the Holy Spirit; instead of some diversity of criticism you may find else where. I hope and pray with all the holy soul in christ this may have help some with the understanding of Christ LOVE.

you sound like a nice person, and very pious (the type who understands his fallibility and has a good dose of humility). I would only say not all people need religion. It makes some people better & others worse. This is just my real world observation.

You might say it only makes one worse if they understand and apply it incorrectly, which of course I would agree with (isn’t it the same with everything). Knowledge is usually great; but in the wrong hands it can be horrific. How come there are so many bad religious people and so many good non-theists out there? Obviously most very religious people are great – but again many are terrible people. So what’s the real distinction?

 

[Memaw]

so then the earth really is at the center of the universe? Hmmm

Those dang telescopes huh?

No wonder you have ended up with nothing! My mom used to say, “Some people like to talk to hear their head rattle.” God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_in_doubt]

No wonder you have ended up with nothing! My mom used to say, “Some people like to talk to hear their head rattle.” God Bless, Memaw

as we used to say in law school – ad hom attacks are usually the last desperate clutches of a losing argument

I’m always amused when you toss in a god bless at the end of your tirades

 

[Memaw]

as we used to say in law school – ad hom attacks are usually the last desperate clutches of a losing argument

I’m always amused when you toss in a god bless at the end of your tirades

I’m not the one that is loosing the argument, I am just trying to show you how empty your thinking is. and yes, God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I’m not the one that is loosing the argument, I am just trying to show you how empty your thinking is. and yes, God Bless, Memaw

I’m such an empty guy … boo hoo (pass that man a tissue). Hey … I gotta good MJ line. Can’t believe he died … what a “thriller” … only 50 and his heart couldn’t “beat it”

Sorry dude I’m in the army (and gross humor is what we do). As for all the god stuff … it’s become a boring topic

 

[josie_L]

so then the earth really is at the center of the universe? Hmmm

Francis, the Church is considered infallible when it comes to faith and morals, and you know it, furthermore the Church was still discerning whether heliocentrism was true during Galileo’s time. There was those who believed in heliocentrism and those in the Church who believed in geocentrism. But the Church as one united voice never proclaimed geocentrism to be true during this process.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t read where Jesus said His church would never teach error. In fact God the Holy Spirit said in the Scriptures He inspired that just as false prophets rose up among the people of Israel, so there WILL BE false teachers that rise up within the church (2 Pet. 2:1). What makes a false teacher? Teaching false doctrines.

We don’t disagree with you, moon, that there will be false teachers. I think the rest of the verse even says something about those who teach these heresies will result in “bringing swift destruction on themselves.” (2 Pet 2: 1) It would seem that the existence of the CC for 2000 years is proof enough that this verse does not refer to her!

Actually Jesus said about the church He was about to build on the confession of Peter

What does that even mean? How can a church be built on someone’s confession?

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger:Can you go church shopping online? That seems to be a big deal with catholics lately. What if the person who is leaving the catholic church tells you to pound sand, or they don’ need or want your prayers! Church shopping, it’s an idea whose time has come! And you do know who the Truth is, don’t you? And do you thik it’s possible for God to use people to accomplish His plans? Paul didn’t stay in one place, did he? Isaiah said,“Here am I, send me.”

I’m sorry, 1beleevr…what are you talking about here?

 

[Memaw]

I’m such an empty guy … boo hoo (pass that man a tissue). Hey … I gotta good MJ line. Can’t believe he died … what a “thriller” … only 50 and his heart couldn’t “beat it”

Sorry dude I’m in the army (and gross humor is what we do). As for all the god stuff … it’s become a boring topic

No one is chaining you to the forum. God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Francis, the Church is considered infallible when it comes to faith and morals, and you know it, furthermore the Church was still discerning whether heliocentrism was true during Galileo’s time. There was those who believed in heliocentrism and those in the Church who believed in geocentrism. But the Church as one united voice never proclaimed geocentrism to be true during this process.

Josie I feel like Michael Corleone when he said I’m trying to get out … but they keep dragin me back in (a godfather III moment). The church held a position of geocentrism for decades (actually centuries) prior to Galileo. It’s just that they didn’t have such a well developed view of infallibility back then … so yes during the time of Galileo they were beginning to entertain the fact that they were wrong (but they just didn’t like Galileo sidestepping them & making an independent unilateral announcement … being they had a comfortable monopoly on the dissemination of information back then).

The fact is according to today’s standard of infallibility they flawed (in scriptural interpretation). If you want to say that Rome isn’t perfect when it comes to interpreting the bible then great (but I don’t think they would agree with you; though you might find many new friends in the protestant community). I mean you can argue with me & spin it all you want … it doesn’t change the objective truth.

 

[SHW]

Correction, Infallibility does not mean one cannot error. All men are capable of sinning. In the Catholic Church, Infallible means the Church in Doctrines, her teachings, cannot error. She is protected by the Holy Spirit till the end of time from teaching error no matter who the Pope or Bishops are. That’s why the Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church is the same today as it was when Jesus gave it to HIS apostles 2,000 years ago. Look around, and see who stands strong against all the sinful things going on in our world today. Who speaks out strongly for peace, justice and freedom to follow God’s will. Who defends Marriage as God intended it. Who defends the dignity of all mankind. Who defends life from Conception till natural death. I could go on and on. It is the Catholic Church who does and always will. Sometimes we can’t see the TREE for the forest. God Bless, Memaw.

When the pope speaks ex cathedra, he is infallible in his teachings on faith and morals. He can not err in his teachings about faith and morals when he speaks ex cathedra.

Impeccability means that a person cannot sin. Popes and all church members can and do sin so they are not impeccable.
**
Scripture is inerrant.** It is without error in its teachings about faith and morals.

When the pope and magisterium speak as one (as Jesus’ Catholic Church) on subjects regarding faith and morals, then they are infallible in these teachings about faith and morals. The Church is therefore infallible in its teachings on faith and morals.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

When the pope speaks ex cathedra, he is infallible in his teachings on faith and morals. He can not err in his teachings about faith and morals when he speaks ex cathedra.

Impeccability means that a person cannot sin. Popes and all church members can and do sin so they are not impeccable.
**
Scripture is inerrant.** It is without error in its teachings about faith and morals.

When the pope and magisterium speak as one (as Jesus’ Catholic Church) on subjects regarding faith and morals, then they are infallible in these teachings about faith and morals. The Church is therefore infallible in its teachings on faith and morals.

but what now that the church is divided? Aren’t protestants after all a splinter faction of your body & hence when the church speaks it doesn’t speak as one, but rather it’s flawed because it’s incomplete?

I don’t know … just tossing that out there for fodder

 

[humble_in_doubt]

No one is chaining you to the forum. God Bless, Memaw

oh come on Memaw … you’re the type who needs someone to pick on

I bet you would have been a Templar back in the day … fighting for the holy roman church (heck I would have probably been one too … just because I love the military).

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: Just an addendum to post#796; even if I were church shopping, why would I go to a catholic website?

I really don’t know why you came here, 1beleevr.

However, here are some guesses:
-the Holy Spirit is whispering your name. “Come home! Come home!”, and you as a faithful servant, heeded the call

-there’s something compelling about the CC, that despite your protestations to the contrary, is attractive to you

-you understand the logic behind the CC’s teachings, and now you’re searching for more

-you’ve been reading more Scripture and realize that the CC is the only church that has the fullness of Truth

-you’ve been reading the ECF and realize that those who knew the apostles, and those who knew those who knew the apostles were Catholic

-you are longing for the Eucharist

 

[SHW]

Francis, the Church is considered infallible when it comes to faith and morals, and you know it, furthermore the Church was still discerning whether heliocentrism was true during Galileo’s time. There was those who believed in heliocentrism and those in the Church who believed in geocentrism. But the Church as one united voice never proclaimed geocentrism to be true during this process.

Galileo was not totally correct in his theory either. From: catholic.com/library/Galileo_Controversy.asp

“It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.”

“As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.”

 

[SteveGC]

but what now that the church is divided? Aren’t protestants after all a splinter faction of your body & hence when the church speaks it doesn’t speak as one, but rather it’s flawed because it’s incomplete?

I don’t know … just tossing that out there for fodder

The charism of infallibility does not protect against schism. Schism is about rejection of infallible truth. This rejection has no bearing on the existence of the infallible truth, nor the Church’s authenticity and completeness.

 

[josie_L]

Josie I feel like Michael Corleone when he said I’m trying to get out … but they keep dragin me back in (a godfather III moment). The church held a position of geocentrism for decades (actually centuries) prior to Galileo. It’s just that they didn’t have such a well developed view of infallibility back then … so yes during the time of Galileo they were beginning to entertain the fact that they were wrong (but they just didn’t like Galileo sidestepping them & making an independent unilateral announcement … being they had a comfortable monopoly on the dissemination of information back then).

And I feel like a parrot always having to repeat myself, anyways, even if they held it to be true before Galileo’s time (although Copernicus stated his hypothesis without any ramificatons) it was never proclaimed infallible, how could they since it was not a subject based on faith and morals. And the Church was angry with Galileo because he decided to proclaim something as true when he had no proof of it. The Church stated that he could treat heliocentrism has a hypothesis (because it was not established fact yet), and he disregarded this therefore breaking the promise he had issued to the Church. This is not a cover up, you know, there are independent (non-catholic) sources which corroborate what I’ve said.