Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

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I realize this statement wasn’t addressed to me, but I would like to comment that I don’t accept the analogy between a pronouncement made by the Supreme Court and a pronouncement made by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has infallibility, the Supreme Court does not.
It is not an issue of infallibility but an issue of authority. Who has the authority? The Supreme Court has final say on what the Constitution means, not you or I. HID’s problem is that he has yet to justify how he is evaluating infallibility.
 
So HID if the Supreme Court reverses a decision then I guess you no longer accept the Supreme Court interpretation of the Constitution. So does that make you an anarchist?
The Supreme Court doesn’t claim to be infallible :confused:
 
HID,

so much of all this bantering hinges on you providing for us precisely how The Church *changed *it’s definition of infallibility. That’s what I’m patiently waiting for from you. Give me something to work with, other than your rant that The Church “conveniently redefines the doctrine when it’s proven wrong”. Give us something tangible from history, regarding the definitions used, please.
I’ve done this ad nausea … but I might as well be talking to a pile of rocks 🤷
 
The Supreme Court doesn’t claim to be infallible :confused:
But it has the authority doesn’t it. You know that thing you have yet to show to justifiy your secular or worldly evaluation of the doctrine of infallibility. The Supreme Court does claim authority on what the final interpretation of the Constitution is-remember that part.
 
I’ve done this ad nausea … but I might as well be talking to a pile of rocks 🤷
You’ve done alot ad nausea on here, mostly making as of yet unsupported claims. Nausea indeed. But, being one of the dutiful rocks in the pile you’re talking to, I went back to see where in this thread all this precise documentation was referenced. Here’s what I found…
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humble_in_doubt:
The church held a position of geocentrism for decades (actually centuries) prior to Galileo. It’s just that they didn’t have such a well developed view of infallibility back then … so yes during the time of Galileo they were beginning to entertain the fact that they were wrong (but they just didn’t like Galileo sidestepping them & making an independent unilateral announcement … being they had a comfortable monopoly on the dissemination of information back then). The fact is according to today’s standard of infallibility they flawed (in scriptural interpretation).

Indeed Galileo was “wrong” in his theory … but the CC was far more wrong (and to my knowledge Galileo didn’t claim to be infallible)

it wasn’t just science though … the church taught that scripture revealed a geocentric universe (obviously a huge difference)

but she claims infallibility with regard to scriptural interpretation does she not?

The church interpreted scripture incorrectly, when interpreting scripture is one of the things it claims to do infallibly. When it’s proven wrong it then goes back and says something like: concerning that particular subject matter we’re not infallible … but in all other areas we remain infallible.

the church interpreted scripture incorrectly before (by its own admission), so why should I believe it here?
Let’s see…alot of ad nausea claims about redefining infallibility in these many posts of yours…no verifiable evidence yet.
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humble_in_doubt:
Here’s this organization who claims to be infallible – yet has previously flawed in the very area she claims infallibility in. Each time this happens the organization goes back and redefines infallibility? These are the objective facts. You can spin it all you want, you can go check out the Vatican web site (or this forum probably has some pretty elaborate stuff) to get the official spin language, but to me none of it amounts to a hill of beans (the truth is obvious enough in this case)
Here’s our first instance of a source…the Vatican web site. Yes, this narrows it down for us…thanks.
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humble_in_doubt:
the CC claims infallibility in scriptural interpretation; however, infallibility itself has been redefined. For instance I believe Vatican II redefined the idea. So if the CC get’s to look back in time, discern what it’s gotten wrong over the years, and then turn around and say we’re not infallible in those particular areas … doesn’t it make the idea of infallibility sort of absurd? I mean seriously they stood willing to imprison Galileo for the mere expression of ideas. They did so under the premise that they were the church & thus infallible. Then they discovered they were wrong & reinvented the meaning of infallible. Pretty convenient don’t you think?
Oh wait, we’re getting more specific I see…Vatican II is where I’ll find this definition, or this altered definition. Um…let’s see…should I just sort through the one or two pages of information that came out of that council to find what you’re referring to?
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humble_in_doubt:
Here’s an excerpt from an article that sums up my feelings on this issue pretty well:
equip.org/articles/papal-infallibility
Oh. A protestant website article about Galileo, making the same unsupported claim that you are. Let’s see…we’re no closer to getting anything specific from you.
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humble_in_doubt:
The definition changes every time the CC is proven wrong; and herein lies my problem with the churches credibility on this issue. Indeed it wasn’t until Vatican I (in the 19th century) that it dogmatically defined the doctrine
And so, maybe this is the closest we’ve come to something that speaks to your theory…are you making the claim that Vatican I’s definition of infallibility was a cover for explaining away all the past errors The Church made? Or that the V1 defintion was later altered due to the future realization of more errors? Or both? Is it your intent to share these opposing and conveniently altered definitions with us?
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humble_in_doubt:
why would I possibly view something from “within the church” as a “valid source”?
Well, because you’re the one claiming that The Church made the definition…and then changed that definition. Um…just a guess, but I would wager that we’d need to see something from within The Church.
 
Don’t ever underestimate the POWER of God. Christ prayed for Unity. When they find themselves reduced to very little, they will want to find the fullness of truth. Protestantism as a whole is becoming weaker and weaker all the time. It is fizzling out. They have divided and divided, disagree on what the Scripture means, many allow so many sinful things including Birth Control, divorce, abortion, Homosexual marriage. Just in my lifetime, I have seen it weaken soooo much. Only God can bring us together. But I believe it will take a sincere love for the TRUTH on our part. God Bless, memaw
No, but seriously, over here in Britain there are millions of protestants denominations. There population in the church is increasing and there are hardly any Catholics churches around. The church of England is protestant and NOT catholic. England is riddled with protestant churches. I know for a fact that America really focuses on catholic teachings but over here that is not the case…
 
Indeed, this is exactly the pattern your posts demonstrate. You have written off men, marriage, children, family life, and some other things on the sole basis of your unpleasant person experineces.

I am glad you are not put off, and I don’t think what happened to you was “little trouble” but you do have some very serious prejudices.
“Serious prejudices!?” Do you really think so Guanophore? Tell me some of them…
 
The Supreme Court doesn’t claim to be infallible :confused:
The Supreme Court does Not have the Holy Spirit protecting it or there would never have been a Roe V Wade. That’s the BIG difference. Because Christ promised HIS Church would NEVER error and the Gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against it, and that HE would be with us till the END OF TIME., that’s why we trust the infallibility of our God given Pope from Peter to Benedict XVII. You just don’t understand so you ridicule something you do not or refuse to understand. How in the world do you explain the existence of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for the last 2,000 years. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING has been able to destroy it or change her teachings as they were given to Her by Christ. She has suffered Heresies, Schisms, persecution from within and without, survived scandals, seen nations come and go, Kings & Rulers rise and fall, by golly she has even survived the American news media and she will continue to teach Christ’s TRUTHS till the end of time. The Catholic Church’s teachings have never changed, Her Sacraments are the same 7 Sacraments that Jesus gave Her, and She still and always will have the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Now, how has your denomination fared in the past 500 years or maybe 300 years or even just 200 years or even less. How strong are you when it comes to following Christ’s teachings. You claim to follow the Scriptures and yet you have such a surface understanding of most of it. Pick and choose what you want to believe. Many don’t want a God that tells them how to live but they want to tell God how they are going to live and then expect HIM to go along with that. Oh, they say, God loves me unconditionally, no matter what I do or don’t do. , He has saved me, or I know some verses in the Bible so I gotta be right. Many denominations have come to accept or at least look the other way to all the horrible sins we have in our society today. And look at the condition our country is in for it. If only ALL those who call themselves Christian would STAND up for Christ and HIS teachings we wouldn’t be in this shape today. My prayer is that ALL Christians will start to stand together for what is right and decent and holy and good and what is GOD"S WILL, not ours. God Bless, Memaw
 
It is not an issue of infallibility but an issue of authority. Who has the authority? The Supreme Court has final say on what the Constitution means, not you or I. HID’s problem is that he has yet to justify how he is evaluating infallibility.
I guess I don’t go for the analogy with the Supreme Court, because that analogy would make the Catholic Church into something more like the Anglican Communion. Don’t you think?
 
You’ve done alot ad nausea on here, mostly making as of yet unsupported claims. Nausea indeed. But, being one of the dutiful rocks in the pile you’re talking to, I went back to see where in this thread all this precise documentation was referenced. Here’s what I found…

Let’s see…alot of ad nausea claims about redefining infallibility in these many posts of yours…no verifiable evidence yet.

Here’s our first instance of a source…the Vatican web site. Yes, this narrows it down for us…thanks.

Oh wait, we’re getting more specific I see…Vatican II is where I’ll find this definition, or this altered definition. Um…let’s see…should I just sort through the one or two pages of information that came out of that council to find what you’re referring to?

Oh. A protestant website article about Galileo, making the same unsupported claim that you are. Let’s see…we’re no closer to getting anything specific from you.

And so, maybe this is the closest we’ve come to something that speaks to your theory…are you making the claim that Vatican I’s definition of infallibility was a cover for explaining away all the past errors The Church made? Or that the V1 defintion was later altered due to the future realization of more errors? Or both? Is it your intent to share these opposing and conveniently altered definitions with us?

Well, because you’re the one claiming that The Church made the definition…and then changed that definition. Um…just a guess, but I would wager that we’d need to see something from within The Church.
YES! :clapping::bowdown2:

Excellent summary of all the unsupported claims made by humble. Methinks that he’s one of those ex-Catholics who, because he went to Mass for 30 years, is an expert on the CC.

Oh, and here’s one more:
Originally Posted by **humble_in_doubt **
but she claims infallibility with regard to scriptural interpretation does she not?
I responded:
I don’t think so, humble…but I could be wrong. Do you have a source for what you claim?
The CCC says that “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone.” 85.
It says “authentic interpretation”, which does not mean “infallibility with regard to scriptural interpretation”; but I’d like to read it for myself if you can find the citation
 
Where does Christ promise this?
Jn. 16:13, Jn 14:26, Lk 10:16, 1Tim 3:15, 1Jn 2:27, Acts 15:28,
Mt 28:20, Jn 14:16, Mt 16:18, Mt 28: 19-20. Please look them up, read the before and after those verses. There are more but this will keep you buys for awhile if your interested. God Bless, Memaw
 
Jn. 16:13, Jn 14:26, Lk 10:16, 1Tim 3:15, 1Jn 2:27, Acts 15:28,
Mt 28:20, Jn 14:16, Mt 16:18, Mt 28: 19-20. Please look them up, read the before and after those verses. There are more but this will keep you buys for awhile if your interested. God Bless, Memaw
Not one of them states the alleged “promise.” Are you familiar with the word “eisegesis?”
 
Are you familiar with the word “eisegesis?”
You mean reading scripture and coming up with…

-saved by faith alone?
-once saved, always saved?
-bible alone is the authority?
-all sins are the same?
-baptism not required?
-Mary had other children?

…yes, I think we’re familiar with that term. We observe alot of it here from our separated brethren.
 
“The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone.” 85.

It says “authentic interpretation”, which does not mean “infallibility with regard to scriptural interpretation”; but I’d like to read it for myself if you can find the citation.
I don’t dispute that under it’s own revised definition of infallibility the Galileo affair cannot be said to contravene the doctrine of infallibility. However, my contention is that the CC did constructively contravene the doctrine by any reasonably objective standard. Indeed many Catholics were concerned that by dogmatically defining the doctrine in Vatican I it logically undermined the concept of infallibility (since it at least gives the aura of a post hoc attempt to harmonize its claim of infallibility with some of its more controversial actions throughout history).

Indeed prior to Vatican I papal infallibility (and infallibility of “the church”) was thought to be much more broad when compared to the Vatican I framework. Here’s some quotes from ancient writers on the subject:

*“We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the Most Blessed Pope of the City of Rome; for Blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of the faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the City of Rome.” Peter Chrysologus, Letter to Eutyches (449).

According to this promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud, above all Heads and Bishops, and Primates of Churches and people, with its own Pontiffs, with most abundant faith, and the authority of Peter. And while other Churches have to blush for the error of some of their members, this reigns alone immovably established, enforcing silence, and stopping the mouths of all heretics; and we, not drunken with the wine of pride, confess together with it the type of truth, and of the holy apostolic tradition. (St. Cyril of Alexandria, as quoted by St. Thomas in the Catena Aurea).*

In 1870 the requirement that the pope must be speaking ex cathedra in order to invoke infallibility was promulgated. While ancient theologians did mention the term, there was no dogmatic framework to invoke infallibility prior to Vatican I (and indeed you will find no formal ritual for invoking infallibility prior to 1870). In other words the claims of the CC in this regard cannot be substantiated.

I would say even measuring what might be fairly viewed as “constructive” invocations of infallibility against Vatican I is an inaccurate measure (since it allows the church the convenience of defining doctrine post hoc and subjectively); and what should really matter is whether or not Christendom viewed certain church actions as carrying the “force of infallibility” when those events actually occurred (since the doctrine was not dogmatically defined prior to 1870). In other words, taking the Galileo affair as an example, is it reasonable to think church authorities or the sitting pope (or even the average Catholic who was aware of the controversy) thought for a moment the church lacked infallible authority when they prosecuted Galileo?

As we see from the quotes above there is evidence to support the fact that infallibility was viewed as much more broad than it is today. Certainly the authority of the church to punish what it viewed as heretics rested on its assumed infallible authority. Of course the churches error with regard to Galileo didn’t end at his death. A generation after Galileo’s death (in 1664) the church went farther to extirpate his error:

*The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.’

“The importance of this document cannot be minimized, for it included and re-affirmed not only previous formal condemnations, but 'all the relevant decrees up to the present time*, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement’” (link here).

Against Galileo (See Id.)

If that’s not a smoking gun then I don’t know what is?

Anyway, here’s a wonderful essay on papal infallibility (and related topics) from a protestant perspective:

ccel.org/s/schaff/history/6_6_per.htm
 
I would say even measuring what might be fairly viewed as “constructive” invocations of infallibility against Vatican I is an inaccurate measure (since it allows the church the convenience of defining doctrine post hoc and subjectively); and what should really matter is whether or not Christendom viewed certain church actions as carrying the “force of infallibility” when those events actually occurred (since the doctrine was not dogmatically defined prior to 1870). In other words, taking the Galileo affair as an example, is it reasonable to think church authorities or the sitting pope (or even the average Catholic who was aware of the controversy) thought for a moment the church lacked infallible authority when they prosecuted Galileo?
Good question. I’m afraid I can’t say whether or not there was a consensus that believed that infallibility was involved in that case. But assuming there was such a majority … what exactly are you arguing against? Not the claims made by Vatican I, apparently, but perhaps the idea of a sensus fidei, or the idea of “Ordinary Magisterium”?
 
P.S.
In 1870 the requirement that the pope must be speaking ex cathedra in order to invoke infallibility was promulgated.
No Vatican said, if the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, then he is exercising infallibility.

It didn’t say, the Pope must be speaking ex cathedra in order to exercise infallibility.
 
I think the moral of the story here is that just because a book is prohibited by the Vatican (through the method of the “Congregation of the Index” or by any other method) it does not necessarily mean that the book is really in error.
As we see from the quotes above there is evidence to support the fact that infallibility was viewed as much more broad than it is today. Certainly the authority of the church to punish what it viewed as heretics rested on its assumed infallible authority. Of course the churches error with regard to Galileo didn’t end at his death. A generation after Galileo’s death (in 1664) the church went farther to extirpate his error:

The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.’

“The importance of this document cannot be minimized, for it included and re-affirmed not only previous formal condemnations, but 'all the relevant decrees up to the present time*, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement’” (link here).
 
You mean reading scripture and coming up with…

-saved by faith alone?
-once saved, always saved?
-bible alone is the authority?
-all sins are the same?
-baptism not required?
-Mary had other children?

…yes, I think we’re familiar with that term. We observe alot of it here from our separated brethren.
And what you’re observing there is the result of an exegetical study of the Scriptures.

Why do you call us “separated brethren” if we volitionally reject Rome’s doctrines of:
-saved through baptism plus “faith” (non-defined), plus works?
-the Scriptures plus RC traditions?
-the difference between venial and mortal sins?
-the extra-Biblical Marian doctrines?

Doesn’t Trent anathamatize such people who consciously reject these teachings?
 
Good question. I’m afraid I can’t say whether or not there was a consensus that believed that infallibility was involved in that case. But assuming there was such a majority … what exactly are you arguing against? Not the claims made by Vatican I, apparently, but perhaps the idea of a sensus fidei, or the idea of “Ordinary Magisterium”?
Here’s the language that Pope Alexander VII used when issuing a Papal Bull affirming the churches earlier rulings against Galileo:

’We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'

With the advice of his Cardinals, Pope Alexander issued a papal bull confirming and approving the judgments against Galileo “with apostolic authority.”
 
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