Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[Christalone]

That is for another thread, but I would like for you to prove, as has yet to be done, that the catholic church is the true church, nothing more nothing less, and without any further jumping around the question.

 

[PerryJ]

That is for another thread, but I would like for you to prove, as has yet to be done, that the catholic church is the true church, nothing more nothing less, and without any further jumping around the question.

Let us agree on what I need to prove.

First that Peter was the head of the Church when Christ died.

Next that Peter handed off succession.

That his successor held Peter’s authority in Church teachings.

 

[Worthy5]

I am amazed at the fact that catholics do not agree with each other and speaking of demons, why are there so many different branches within the catholic church?

There are not different branches in the Church, only certain Catholics that think they are a branch. Ultimately it is what the bishops in union with the Pope teach on ‘essential’ matters of faith and morals. Outside of that, catholics can evaluate anything they want but it is only the teaching authority of the Church that has the authority given to her by Christ on essential matters. There really is nothing else to say, you either accept that authority or you do not.

 

[PerryJ]

There are not different branches in the Church, only certain Catholics that think they are a branch. Ultimately it is what the bishops in union with the Pope teach on ‘essential’ matters of faith and morals. Outside of that, catholics can evaluate anything they want but it is only the teaching authority of the Church that has the authority given to her by Christ on essential matters. There really is nothing else to say, you either accept that authority or you do not.

There are examples of different rites that do not have different beliefs. For example I accidently went to a Maronite Right Church. They believe the same as us; however, their mass was a bit different because they were cut-off from the Roman Catholic Church for centuries due to persecution.

 

[Christalone]

There are not different branches in the Church

Sure could fool me, as it is so rampant even on here.

 

[PRmerger]

Sure could fool me, as it is so rampant even on here.

Again, Christalone, could you be specific? What differences between Catholics disturbs you?

And, are you not bothered also by the 40,000 different denominations in Protestantism?

 

[historyb]

Could you please attend an RCIA class (finish it) before attempting to argue Catholic versus Protestant theology…

I never once took RCIA, when I converted to Catholicism I was the only one so my priest taught me himself. I read great tomes about the Catholic Faith and he taught me well. When I was a Catholic for ten years after that I saw a great disparity between the written and the practices of the people in the pew. It was than I knew that 1) either the Vatican was out of touch with the people, 2) didn’t care, 3) didn’t discipline, or 4) the people were not being taught right. I came to realize that it was number 3 and 4 in my list.

Most Catholics here are arm chair theologians and will deny that people practice are different from written or and this is a good one just because people do that does not mean the Church believes it. The Church should make sure the people are taught properly. The biggest problem as I saw was that internally the Catholic Church has several camps and is just as divided as the Protestant camp, being divided is not just a Protestant distinctive

With Liberals, Traditionalist, Ultra-Traditionalist, Orthodox followers and those who don’t care how can a Church that does not discipline expect it’s people to follow what it says. (Lest someone says that is not true in the USA we have many Catholic Politicians who support baby murder and yet no discipline has come down with the exception of lip service). I wanted more consistency so I began to study once again and unconverted, so I know the Catholic doctrine and that the practices are not the same. If the Church want people to look at it as the true Church than what is doctrine and what is practice should be the same and the Church should make sure it is.

Yes, i suppose Catholics should study various Protestant theologies also… but i feel most Catholics on the forums have (more or less) done that…

No they haven’t for instances let’s use Sola Scriptura as an example, while the average poster here has the definition done pat they have no idea the concept behind it and yet you except us to play fair when Catholics here won’t even try. Most Catholics and Protestants have no idea behind the concept of these phrases and it shows in the debates that go down here.

I’m sorry, but it really rankles me when Protestants think they know Catholic theology and they so positively DO NOT!!

Same goes both ways and to be consistent you should be rankled at both

another source of information about the true Catholic faith can be found here at Catholic Answers…

Yes it has a lot of the doctrine, a rich resource even, but it does not have not the practices of the laity in the pew which can differ greatly from the doctrine

I just don’t think it is right to attack something you do not understand…

Than you should get to know the proper Protestant theology and the meaning behind the terms before you attack something you all really don’t know. Your last sentence goes both ways.

 

[sambos671]

I never once took RCIA, when I converted to Catholicism I was the only one so my priest taught me himself. I read great tomes about the Catholic Faith and he taught me well. When I was a Catholic for ten years after that I saw a great disparity between the written and the practices of the people in the pew. It was than I knew that 1) either the Vatican was out of touch with the people, 2) didn’t care, 3) didn’t discipline, or 4) the people were not being taught right. I came to realize that it was number 3 and 4 in my list.

Most Catholics here are arm chair theologians and will deny that people practice are different from written or and this is a good one just because people do that does not mean the Church believes it. The Church should make sure the people are taught properly. The biggest problem as I saw was that internally the Catholic Church has several camps and is just as divided as the Protestant camp, being divided is not just a Protestant distinctive

With Liberals, Traditionalist, Ultra-Traditionalist, Orthodox followers and those who don’t care how can a Church that does not discipline expect it’s people to follow what it says. (Lest someone says that is not true in the USA we have many Catholic Politicians who support baby murder and yet no discipline has come down with the exception of lip service). I wanted more consistency so I began to study once again and unconverted, so I know the Catholic doctrine and that the practices are not the same. If the Church want people to look at it as the true Church than what is doctrine and what is practice should be the same and the Church should make sure it is.

No they haven’t for instances let’s use Sola Scriptura as an example, while the average poster here has the definition done pat they have no idea the concept behind it and yet you except us to play fair when Catholics here won’t even try. Most Catholics and Protestants have no idea behind the concept of these phrases and it shows in the debates that go down here.

Same goes both ways and to be consistent you should be rankled at both

Yes it has a lot of the doctrine, a rich resource even, but it does not have not the practices of the laity in the pew which can differ greatly from the doctrine

Than you should get to know the proper Protestant theology and the meaning behind the terms before you attack something you all really don’t know. Your last sentence goes both ways.

I see the same divergence between what the Catholic Church teaches and how many of the Layity don’t live redeeemed lives. It bothers me. However, I must ask this question. Does the Catholic Church teach the truth about the Eucharist? If so then how can one in good conscience leave it? Also note that there is a change at hand. I’ve been to several Diocecan Institute training classes and have seen a real hunger to both know the Holy Scriptures and the Teachings of the Church. I’ve seen many great people live their lives for Christ in the Catholic Church. So are you doing a diservice to those who follow Jesus and remain in their church?

 

[PRmerger]

I never once took RCIA, when I converted to Catholicism I was the only one so my priest taught me himself. I read great tomes about the Catholic Faith and he taught me well. When I was a Catholic for ten years after that I saw a great disparity between the written and the practices of the people in the pew. It was than I knew that 1) either the Vatican was out of touch with the people, 2) didn’t care, 3) didn’t discipline, or 4) the people were not being taught right. I came to realize that it was number 3 and 4 in my list.

How does your church discipline its members that show a disparity between its written doctrines and the practices of the people in the pew?

Does your church teach against divorce? If so, does it refuse to re-marry people who have already been married but have a civil divorce?

The Church should make sure the people are taught properly.

Amen!

 

[PerryJ]

I never once took RCIA, when I converted to Catholicism I was the only one so my priest taught me himself. I read great tomes about the Catholic Faith and he taught me well. When I was a Catholic for ten years after that I saw a great disparity between the written and the practices of the people in the pew. It was than I knew that 1) either the Vatican was out of touch with the people, 2) didn’t care, 3) didn’t discipline, or 4) the people were not being taught right. I came to realize that it was number 3 and 4 in my list.

Most Catholics here are arm chair theologians and will deny that people practice are different from written or and this is a good one just because people do that does not mean the Church believes it. The Church should make sure the people are taught properly. The biggest problem as I saw was that internally the Catholic Church has several camps and is just as divided as the Protestant camp, being divided is not just a Protestant distinctive

With Liberals, Traditionalist, Ultra-Traditionalist, Orthodox followers and those who don’t care how can a Church that does not discipline expect it’s people to follow what it says. (Lest someone says that is not true in the USA we have many Catholic Politicians who support baby murder and yet no discipline has come down with the exception of lip service). I wanted more consistency so I began to study once again and unconverted, so I know the Catholic doctrine and that the practices are not the same. If the Church want people to look at it as the true Church than what is doctrine and what is practice should be the same and the Church should make sure it is.
No they haven’t for instances let’s use Sola Scriptura as an example, while the average poster here has the definition done pat they have no idea the concept behind it and yet you except us to play fair when Catholics here won’t even try. Most Catholics and Protestants have no idea behind the concept of these phrases and it shows in the debates that go down here.

Same goes both ways and to be consistent you should be rankled at both

Yes it has a lot of the doctrine, a rich resource even, but it does not have not the practices of the laity in the pew which can differ greatly from the doctrine

Than you should get to know the proper Protestant theology and the meaning behind the terms before you attack something you all really don’t know. Your last sentence goes both ways.

I highlighted two items I want to discuss.

Church practice and doctrine should be the same; however, people are on different paths. I am farther along then some and behind many. I read, study and attend small faith groups. I do not know everything; therefore I find it hard that you left because some people do not understand Church teaching. Protestant do not understand all of their teachings. Will you now leave them?

The second part is concerning the statement that we should know Protestant theology. Catholic do have one belief and it is written down. There are too many variations to know all Protestant theology or what that individual person you are posting with believes. It is much different. Our beliefs are there for one to read and understand. I do not have time to study ten thousand beliefs. As such we make general statements.

 

[historyb]

Again, Christalone, could you be specific? What differences between Catholics disturbs you?

And, are you not bothered also by the 40,000 different denominations in Protestantism?

Actually that is something that many Catholics get wrong. There are only 7 denominations which are in alphabetical order Anglican/Episcopalian, Baptist, Congregational, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and non denominational. All the churches can be placed under one of those headings.

I highlighted two items I want to discuss.

Church practice and doctrine should be the same; however, people are on different paths. I am farther along then some and behind many. I read, study and attend small faith groups. I do not know everything; therefore I find it hard that you left because some people do not understand Church teaching. Protestant do not understand all of their teachings. Will you now leave them?

Sounds nice but that is just an excuse, if the Catholic Church is at it says than practice and doctrine should always be the same. I also left because the Catholic Church places itself above God’s Word and no I won’t leave Christ.

The second part is concerning the statement that we should know Protestant theology. Catholic do have one belief and it is written down. There are too many variations to know all Protestant theology or what that individual person you are posting with believes. It is much different. Our beliefs are there for one to read and understand. I do not have time to study ten thousand beliefs. As such we make general statements.

I could say the same and we both would know that I would be lying as we both know you are too. You may not know where to go but there are not ten thousand beliefs, how are we Protestants suppose to interact with you all when you lie like this.

If you want to know core beliefs that Christians believe you just need to study the Westminster Confession of Faith, or London Baptist confession of Faith, or the 39 Articles. If you don’t want to find out what we believe then you shouldn’t debate us as if you know

 

[historyb]

I see the same divergence between what the Catholic Church teaches and how many of the Laity don’t live redeemed lives. It bothers me. However, I must ask this question. Does the Catholic Church teach the truth about the Eucharist?

No

If so then how can one in good conscience leave it? Also note that there is a change at hand. I’ve been to several Diocesan Institute training classes and have seen a real hunger to both know the Holy Scriptures and the Teachings of the Church. I’ve seen many great people live their lives for Christ in the Catholic Church. So are you doing a disservice to those who follow Jesus and remain in their church?

I am not sure I understand your last question.

How does your church discipline its members that show a disparity between its written doctrines and the practices of the people in the pew?

Excommunication, standing before the elders to give an account, etc.

Does your church teach against divorce? If so, does it refuse to re-marry people who have already been married but have a civil divorce?

Yes. Does yours in reality?

 

[PRmerger]

Actually that is something that many Catholics get wrong. There are only 7 denominations which are in alphabetical order Anglican/Episcopalian, Baptist, Congregational, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and non denominational. All the churches can be placed under one of those headings.

Ok. Let’s accept that there’s “only” 7 denominations. Does it not bother you that each of these denomations has read the same Scriptures and come up with *thousands *of differing doctrines because there is no authority which discerns and guards the Truth?

 

[sambos671]

No

I am not sure I understand your last question.

Excommunication, standing before the elders to give an account, etc.

Yes. Does yours in reality?

The last quote was not mine. I was misquoted. I never asked anything about divorce. The second quote is made void from your first answer. And by the way what are you talking about with regard to reality. The Catholic Church teaches about reality. What makes you think it doesn’t?

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by **PRmerger **
Does your church teach against divorce? If so, does it refuse to re-marry people who have already been married but have a civil divorce?

You responded:

Yes. Does yours in reality?

Your church refuses to marry divorcees? Really. Something doesn’t make sense.

At your suggestion I referenced the Westminister Confession of Faith and found this:

The remarriage of divorced persons may be sanctioned by the church, in keeping with the redemptive gospel of Christ, when sufficient penitence for sin and failure is evidence, and a firm purpose of and endeavor after Christian marriage is manifested
epc.org/about-the-epc/beliefs/westminster-confession/#ch24

I’m confused.

Who should I believe? The reference you cited that says it allows remarriage (despite the words of Christ which prohibit it), or your words?

 

[historyb]

Ok. Let’s accept that there’s “only” 7 denominations. Does it not bother you that each of these denominations has read the same Scriptures and come up with *thousands *of differing doctrines because there is no authority which discerns and guards the Truth?

Another falsehood, there are not thousands of Doctrines. Among them all there are core one from Scripture that all can agree to, the differences come in secondary doctrines. Just as you Catholics have a core but different secondary in Franciscan, Augustine, Benedictine. Does that brother you?

It is the same with us, so no it does not brother me

 

[distracted]

Well, since I’ve been on this forum I’ve encountered several very well versed Protestants in RC’ism. They’ve done their research and in many cases know RC’ism better than many RCs on this forum - and can debate Christianity from a pure Biblical basis. But often when backed into a corner, theologically, the RC responds with “you misunderstand the Catholic faith.” And that simply is not the case.

However, if there are any Protestants out there who desire to be better educated on RC’ism from a Biblical viewpoint, PM me and I’ll recommend a good book. Maybe this will help to ease “distracted’s” frustration.

i don’ understand your point…

as i said elsewhere you have to be Catholic to understand being Catholic.

the next best thing would be an orthodox RCIA class…

 

[distracted]

That is for another thread, but I would like for you to prove, as has yet to be done, that the catholic church is the true church, nothing more nothing less, and without any further jumping around the question.

there is no way anyone can prove any particular religion is true… or not true… to someone who doesn’t just believe…

You virtually have to BE Catholic to understand being Cahtolic…

and as i just said, next best thing is RCIA class (orthodox)

The short version of the story:

Jesus established a Chruch (St Mt 16:18) - ONE Church

and if that is true… He is powerful enough to protect it from teaching error even while staying in Heaven…

Once you believe (Know) that, the rest is a walk in the park… on a very sunny day…

 

[Memaw]

This is the biggest pile of dung I have ever heard, and is exactly why so many would never succomb to the catholic rhetoric

I don’t think that kind of language is necessary here. You only show your own crudeness. It also shows your ignorance of the Bible. Jesus said to Saul, “Why are you persecuting ME?” When you ridicule Christ’s Church, you are ridiculing HIM. You may just have to eat those words someday. God Bless, Memaw

 

[historyb]

there is no way anyone can prove any particular religion is true… or not true… to someone who doesn’t just believe…

You virtually have to BE Catholic to understand being Cahtolic…

and as i just said, next best thing is RCIA class (orthodox)

The short version of the story:

Jesus established a Chruch (St Mt 16:18) - ONE Church

and if that is true… He is powerful enough to protect it from teaching error even while staying in Heaven…

Once you believe (Know) that, the rest is a walk in the park… on a very sunny day…

In Matt 16:18 this is what Christ said:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Did Christ establish a church? No what He said was He would build a Church on this rock. Now what rock? Verse 16 gives the answer and here is the whole thing:

15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Son of the living God.” the Christ,17And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It can clearly be seen that the intention was not to build upon Peter, but upon his faith