Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

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And more Protestant theologians who do not agree with historyb’s personal interpretation of Matt 16:18…

Oscar Cullmann (Lutheran) from Kittel’s Greek standard Theological Dictionary of the New Testament –

“The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words. On the other hand, only the fairly assured Aramaic original of the saying enables us to assert with confidence the formal and material identity between petra and petros: petra = Kepha = petros…Since Peter, the rock of the Church, is thus given by Christ Himself, the master of the house (Is. 22:22; Rev. 3:7), the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he is the human mediator of the resurrection, and he has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection…The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in view of the probably different setting of the story…For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art Rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom He has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Cullmann, article on “Rock” (petros, petra) trans. and ed. by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [Eerdmans Publishing, 1968], volume 6, page 98, 107, 108)

Herman Ridderbos (Protestant Evangelical) –

“It is well known that the Greek word (petra) translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man’s name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros. The word petros was not an exact synonym of petra; it literally meant ‘stone.’ Jesus therefore had to switch to the word petra when He turned from Peter’s name to what it meant for the Church. There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that He was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter. Because of the revelation that he had received and the confession that it motivated in him, Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church.” (Ridderbos, Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew [Zondervan, 1987], page 303 as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 35-36)

Craig Blomberg (Protestant Evangelical) –

“Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon’s nickname ‘Peter’ (Petros=rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42 [wherein he is called Cephas]), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus’ declaration, ‘You are Peter,’ parallels Peter’s confession, ‘You are the Christ,’ as if to say, ‘Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are.’ The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification.” (Blomberg, The New American Commentary: Matthew [Broadman, 1992], page 251-252, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 31-32)

William F. Albright and C.S. Mann (from The Anchor Bible series) –

“Rock (Aram. Kepha). This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. On building on a rock, or from a rock, cf. Isa 51:1ff; Matt 7:24f. Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community (cf. I will build). Jesus, not quoting the OT, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19 (see below), one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. Cf. in this gospel 10:2; 14:28-31; 15:15. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence (cf. Gal 2:11ff).” (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew [Doubleday, 1971], page 195)
bringyou.to/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm
 
And more Protestant theologians who do not agree with historyb’s personal interpretation of Matt 16:18…

Oscar Cullmann (Lutheran) from Kittel’s Greek standard Theological Dictionary of the New Testament –

“The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words. On the other hand, only the fairly assured Aramaic original of the saying enables us to assert with confidence the formal and material identity between petra and petros: petra = Kepha = petros…Since Peter, the rock of the Church, is thus given by Christ Himself, the master of the house (Is. 22:22; Rev. 3:7), the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he is the human mediator of the resurrection, and he has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection…The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter is quite inconceivable in view of the probably different setting of the story…For there is no reference here to the faith of Peter. Rather, the parallelism of ‘thou art Rock’ and ‘on this rock I will build’ shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first. It is thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom He has given the name Rock. He appoints Peter, the impulsive, enthusiastic, but not persevering man in the circle, to be the foundation of His ecclesia. To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.” (Cullmann, article on “Rock” (petros, petra) trans. and ed. by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament [Eerdmans Publishing, 1968], volume 6, page 98, 107, 108)

Herman Ridderbos (Protestant Evangelical) –

“It is well known that the Greek word (petra) translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man’s name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros. The word petros was not an exact synonym of petra; it literally meant ‘stone.’ Jesus therefore had to switch to the word petra when He turned from Peter’s name to what it meant for the Church. There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that He was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter. Because of the revelation that he had received and the confession that it motivated in him, Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church.” (Ridderbos, Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew [Zondervan, 1987], page 303 as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 35-36)

Craig Blomberg (Protestant Evangelical) –

“Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon’s nickname ‘Peter’ (Petros=rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42 [wherein he is called Cephas]), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus’ declaration, ‘You are Peter,’ parallels Peter’s confession, ‘You are the Christ,’ as if to say, ‘Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are.’ The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification.” (Blomberg, The New American Commentary: Matthew [Broadman, 1992], page 251-252, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 31-32)

William F. Albright and C.S. Mann (from The Anchor Bible series) –

“Rock (Aram. Kepha). This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. On building on a rock, or from a rock, cf. Isa 51:1ff; Matt 7:24f. Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community (cf. I will build). Jesus, not quoting the OT, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19 (see below), one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. Cf. in this gospel 10:2; 14:28-31; 15:15. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence (cf. Gal 2:11ff).” (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew [Doubleday, 1971], page 195)
bringyou.to/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm
Interesting, but not familiar with any of these men. Would be interesting to hear what the early Reformers have to say.
 
MOST SBC’s have no problem remarrying divorced people. CERTAIN Presbyterian denominations REFUSE to remarry divorced people under any circumstance. Other Presbyterian churches will remarry depending upon the circumstance. The Westminster Confession permits divorce and remarriage (of the innocent party) under certain circumstances. The London Baptist Confession leaves out this entire section.
:bigyikes:

All those different interpretations from reading the same Scripture verses?
If Historyb’s church rejects all remarriages, then his individual church is an oddity (and those that refuse to perform remarriages will still accept remarried couples as communing members at a later date). If he was merely referring to himself and his own personal belief, he should have said so…let’s not be disingenuous.
Indeed.
 
:bigyikes:

All those different interpretations from reading the same Scripture verses?
Not exactly. They read the same, but the chosen actions are different for good reason. Most of those that refuse to remarry either party, refuse only because there is typically more to any divorce than what is stated. Given that there can be guilt not mentioned on either side, and given the grave responsibility of a minister and his actions, they choose the safer road of not marrying them, but will accept them at church if they pursue a civil marriage. Very, very few are against remarriage altogether (regardless of party or reason).

However, I have seen a bit of a looseness on this matter from Catholics I have personally known. But I see no defense or denial of this?
Ok. But would it be correct, then, to say, that not all Protestants agree with historyb’s personal interpretation of Matt 16:18?
If the quotes you gave are accurate, then yes (I am unfamiliar with the men and quotes in question).
 
uhm, this is how all Protestants read this passage…even those that know Greek (I know many that have studied Greek). And it is read that what Christ was telling Peter is what the Church will be built on, not Peter himself as a person.
Have you read Greek? Or are you just relying on someone else’s interpretation. And if you are relying on someone else’s interpretation is that not the same as Catholics relying on the teaching authority of the Church. And where did your Protestant scholars get their authority. Chuch has been around for nearly 2,000 years. So why do you not mind your own faith and I will mind mine with the Church as my guide.
 
:
Question for you, Worthy5: in the "ORIGINAL’ Greek version that you you for St. Mt. 16/18, when Jesus addresses Peter, was Jesus using a REFLEXIVE “you”, or a DIRECT OBJECT PRONOUN “you”? 🍿
I am not the one making affirmative statements, the prior post was. Have you read Greek and the NT. If so great, but why should I believe your interpretation. What authority do you have? God Bless 👍
 
Have you read Greek? Or are you just relying on someone else’s interpretation. And if you are relying on someone else’s interpretation is that not the same as Catholics relying on the teaching authority of the Church. And where did your Protestant scholars get their authority. Chuch has been around for nearly 2,000 years. So why do you not mind your own faith and I will mind mine with the Church as my guide.
Wow, just wow. I’m so glad that not all Catholics are like you. I’ve known some excellent Catholics that are more than willing to hold a discussion without the nastiness in noted here. I was even willing to take up the OP on his challenge, and yet here you would just tell me to go away. If you aren’t interested in discussion and only interested in mudslinging (something that I don’t like seeing out of either party), then why are you in this thread? I never once attacked anyone in this thread and this is how you respond…lovely, such wonderful Christian Charity.
 
However, I have seen a bit of a looseness on this matter from Catholics I have personally known. But I see no defense or denial of this?
I think that the Catholic Church is quite clear that she is not free to change Christ’s teaching on divorce.

I’m not certain exactly what “looseness” you’re referring to regarding annulments. Could you be more specific?
 
I think that the Catholic Church is quite clear that she is not free to change Christ’s teaching on divorce.

I’m not certain exactly what “looseness” you’re referring to regarding annulments. Could you be more specific?
Simply that I’ve seen plenty of divorce and remarriage with Catholics just as elsewhere.
 
Simply that I’ve seen plenty of divorce and remarriage with Catholics just as elsewhere.
These divorced and re-married Catholics were married in a Catholic Church? Are you certain of this? Without an annulment?

My divorced Catholic friend married her divorced Catholic fiance at her mom’s home, in front of a judge, since no Catholic priest could in good conscience marry them as they are already married to other people.
 
These divorced and re-married Catholics were married in a Catholic Church? Are you certain of this? Without an annulment?

My divorced Catholic friend married her divorced Catholic fiance at her mom’s home, in front of a judge, since no Catholic priest could in good conscience marry them as they are already married to other people.
I know of one that had an annulment due to adultery (but I read somewhere in the forum that adultery wasn’t an acceptable cause ? ) and lived with his current wife before they were married.

Others, I don’t know the particulars. But I do have a question…where is annulment permitted in Scripture? In Protestantism there is either remarriage permitted (altogether or depending on circumstance) or not permitted. No one ever declares, or would ever dream of declaring, a marriage as though it “never happened”. Seriously curious here. (want to know about Catholicism, ask a Catholic 😉 )
 
Wow, just wow. I’m so glad that not all Catholics are like you. I’ve known some excellent Catholics that are more than willing to hold a discussion without the nastiness in noted here. I was even willing to take up the OP on his challenge, and yet here you would just tell me to go away. If you aren’t interested in discussion and only interested in mudslinging (something that I don’t like seeing out of either party), then why are you in this thread? I never once attacked anyone in this thread and this is how you respond…lovely, such wonderful Christian Charity.
Well thanks for the attempt to try to characterize me-you need not. Discussion is fine but having discussion playing scriptural hardball using English versions of the Bible is intellectually weak, if not dishonest. The reality is that Protestants often cannot leave well enough alone, finding the need to attack Catholicism by mischaracterizing its positions and practices. Playing literal interpretation hardball of scripture (in English no doubt) to attack Catholic practices and theology, and then assert that the Catholic faith is not really Christian. The notions of presenting the Bible as the full and final authority (despite the given interpretation issues on written language) and the ignoring of the reality of an oral tradition that predates the NT, makes such attacks disingenuous. It is simply the attempt to peal of Catholics from the Church. Have the discussion but be honest about the underlying arears where the above problems exists.

If you want to interpret the Bible yourself and practice your version of Christianity-free country. If you want to have discussion with Catholics to better understand Catholic doctrine and practices, that is fine too. But the prior post made a definitive statement (not a professed belief-which he can certaintly have) on what a verse in the Bible meant while using an English translation without indicating the inherent problems that such a statement can have. Thanks and God Bless.
 
I know of one that had an annulment due to adultery
It’s probably an over-simplification to say that the annulment was “due to adultery”.

Regardless, then, they were both free to marry as the first “marriage” never existed sacramentally. So, no divorce and remarriage! 😛
(but I read somewhere in the forum that adultery wasn’t an acceptable cause ? )
Not simply because adultery occurred will an annulment be granted. Else, everyone would just run around and cheat on their spouses in order to get an annulment, yes?
and lived with his current wife before they were married.
One would hope that he and his wife repented of this sin.
Others, I don’t know the particulars.
Ok. But it would seem that if you know of a Catholic who’s divorced and re-married one ought not assume that this has been sanctioned by the Catholic Church.
But I do have a question…where is annulment permitted in Scripture? In Protestantism there is either remarriage permitted (altogether or depending on circumstance) or not permitted. No one ever declares, or would ever dream of declaring, a marriage as though it “never happened”. Seriously curious here. (want to know about Catholicism, ask a Catholic 😉 )
Matt 19:6–what God has joined let no one separate.
Matt 18:18–what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Annulments are simply an official determination that what appeared to be a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church was not.

Certainly, you acknowledge that Catholics don’t accept that Scripture would necessarily have to speak about annulments, in order for it to be part of the practice and life of the Church, yes?
 
Well thanks for the attempt to try to characterize me-you need not. Discussion is fine but having discussion playing scriptural hardball using English versions of the Bible is intellectually weak. The reality is that Protestants often cannot leave well enough alone, finding the need to attack Catholicism by mischaracterizing its positions and practices. Playing literal interpretation hardball of scripture (in English no doubt)** to attack Catholic practices and theology, and then assert that the Catholic faith is not really Christian**. The notions of presenting the Bible as the full and final authority (despite the given interpretation issues on written language) and the ignoring of the reality of an oral tradition that predates the NT, makes such attacks uncalled for. It is simply the attempt to peal of Catholics from the Church. Have the discussion but be honest about the underlying arears where the above problems exists.
**I did no such thing! ** I do believe that there are many Christians within the Catholic church…I know more than a few and one happens to be very near and dear to our family (and no, we have never tried to convert him…we talk with him as a Christian brother, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, always trying to understand what the other is trying to say).
If you want to interpret the Bible yourself and practice your version of Christianity-free country. If you want to have discussion with Catholics to better understand Catholic doctrine and practices, that is fine too. But the prior post made a definitive statement (not a professed belief-which he can certaintly have) on what a verse in the Bible meant while using an English translation without noting the inherent problems that such a statement can have. Thanks and God Bless.
Maybe I actually have questions and at the same time am trying to make certain others don’t broadbrush or presume upon us as much as you don’t like done to Catholicism. I made a definitive statement on how PROTESTANTS (the majority, general Protestant reading, from Protestants that, yes, have read the Greek) read that verse. That was not against Catholicism, merely showing the difference in reading.
 
One would hope that he and his wife repented of this sin.
Doubtful, considering she was pushing for me to fornicate with my husband before we were married and thought I was odd for not :rolleyes: (oh well, I’m responsible for my actions, not her’s…and I don’t judge all Catholics by her’s…it’s quite plausible she was Catholic “in name only” rather than practice; people like that in all various churches that I’ve seen).
Ok. But it would seem that if you know of a Catholic who’s divorced and re-married one ought not assume that this has been sanctioned by the Catholic Church.
Very true. Something easy to do…thus, I took the risk of asking about it (despite the lack of a flame resistant suit lol). Thank you for your gracious response.
Matt 19:6–what God has joined let no one separate.
Matt 18:18–what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Annulments are simply an official determination that what appeared to be a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church was not.

Certainly, you acknowledge that Catholics don’t accept that Scripture would necessarily have to speak about annulments, in order for it to be part of the practice and life of the Church, yes?
Yes, I understand that, but was wondering if there was something in Scripture that the Catholic church pulled from for it. Don’t know unless I ask 🙂
 
Yes such as Ireneaus.
Yes. Also Justin Martyr who held it up as a criterion of perfect orthodoxy. As did Tertullian who is cited as calling the doctrine of the Millennium as “exactly orthodox.” As did men like Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias, and many others down to the fourth century.

George Peters quotes Daniel Witby (1638-1726) who, himself (Witby), opposed the Premillennial view:“The doctrine of the Millennium, or the reign of saints on earth for a thousand years, is now rejected by all Roman Catholics, and by the greatest part of Protestantism; and yet it passed among the best Christians, for two hundered and fity years, for a tradition apostolical, and, as such, is delivered by many Fathers of the second and third century, who speak of it as the tradition of our Lord and His apostles, and of all the ancients who lived before them; who tell us the very words in which it was delivered, the Scriptures which were then so interpreted; and say that it was held by all Christians that were exactly orthodox.” It was received not only in the eastern parts of the Church, by Papias (in Phyrgia), Justin (in Palestine), but by Irenaeus (in Gaul), Nepos (in Egypt), Apollianaris, Methodius (in the West and South), Cyprian, Victorinus (in Germany), by Tertullian (in Africa), Lactantius (in Italy), and Severtus, and by the Council of Nice (about A.D. 323). Even in his Treatise on the Millennium, in which he endeavors to set aside the ancient faith by his substitution of “a new hypothesis,” he acknowledges, according to Justin and Irenaeus, that, (ch.1, p. 61) there were "three sorts of men: (1) The Heretics, denying the resurrection and the Millennium. (2) The exactly orthodox, asserting both the resurrection and the Kingdom of Christ on earth. (3) The believers, who consented with the just, and yet endeavored to allegorize and turn into a metaphor all those Scriptures produced for a proper reign of Christ, and who had sentiments rather agreeing with those heretics who denied, than those *exactly orthodox *who maintained, this reign of Christ on earth."So you see, to read the ECFs does not necessarily lead one to present day Roman Catholicism with its adherence to Amillennialism. It holds to several doctrines that cannot be traced back directly to the Apostles themselves but are a product of evolution.
 
If you’re referring to your statement ‘But often when backed into a corner, theologically, the RC responds with “you misunderstand the Catholic faith.”’, then yes I do know what you mean.

Being Catholic doesn’t give us some kind of special “logic gene” that Protestants lack. Some Catholics use cheap tricks to try to win an argument, some Catholics don’t. Some Protestants use cheap tricks to try to win an argument, some Protestants don’t. None of this is news to me.
Thank you for recognizing this. But let me ask you, with your doctrine of “infallibility,” how do you personally test for “cheap tricks” within your own religious community?
 
i don’ understand your point…

as i said elsewhere you have to be Catholic to understand being Catholic.

the next best thing would be an orthodox RCIA class…
Oh, so then short of conversion you’re saying it’s virtually impossible for anyone standing on the opposite bank of the Tiber to fully understand the doctrines as taught by Rome. Does this same principle hold true to, say, Mormonism and JWs? Would it be correct for them to respond to RC apologists who debate them with, “you cannot understand us unless you join us?” Is that a political principle as well? You cannot understand Communism unless you become one. Or how about sports? You cannot understand football unless you play it professionally. 🤷
 
uhm, this is how all Protestants read this passage…even those that know Greek (I know many that have studied Greek). And it is read that what Christ was telling Peter is what the Church will be built on, not Peter himself as a person.
SC,
Then why did Jesus change Peter’s name from Simon to Peter, which means Rock??? Another self interpretation. You just can’t go thru the Bible and make things what you want them to be. You need to read everything Jesus said to Peter! God Bless, Memaw
 
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