S
SemperReformada
Guest
When did Peter singularly receive the keys (ie. what verse)?
Protestants, Could You Please Tell Me How You Interpret This?
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P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You cannot separate Peter from his confession of faith. A confession of faith, without Peter, cannot receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven with the authority to bind and loose on earth, and Christ promising to bind and loose the same in heaven. Peter confession was revealed to him by the Father. He was chosen.
I am quoting my explanation of the keys and Peter below for your review.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
Thanks for your response but I don’t know of any verse in scripture where Peter receives the keys apart from the others.
Your claim is that Peter singularly received the keys from Jesus or at least that’s how I understand your post.
Where does Peter singularly receive the keys?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Hello Celtic,
I knew you were seeking responses from Protestants and have been trying to refrain from posting in this thread, since my initial post. I started a thread entitled, ‘Protestant view of the Reformation’ to discuss it more in detail and avoid derailing or hijacking your thread. Please, all, feel free to post your views there.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
i posted my explanation right above this post of yours that I’m quoting…I am copying and pasting it below.
Christ asks His disciples, ‘Whom do men say that the Son of man is?’
Several offered answers, but Peter spoke truth. Jesus acknowledges Peter receiving the answer from the Father in heaven. Then He speaks to Peter and Peter alone. Notice that Jesus speaks to Peter saying, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.’
We see that through the words chose at this point, He is still speaking to Peter and Peter alone. ‘AND, I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ Notice Christ continues in the next verse with, 'AND I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Mat 16:13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?
Mat 16:14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Verse 20 is when we know He has stopped speaking specifically to Peter.
Mat 16:20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
No where in the passage do we see the Lord interrupted His ongoing statement to Peter, to include all in receiving the keys.
The word ‘AND’ appears in the Greek Interlinear, the Douay-Rheims and two versions of the King James Versions of the Bible, that I own.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
The promise is made in the future tense and while you state that “No where in the passage do we see the Lord interrupted His ongoing statement to Peter, to include all in receiving the keys” you must also admit that nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus giving Peter alone the keys.
You say Peter alone received the keys based on your understanding of the verses but when we examine the data available to us there is no depiction in all of scripture of Peter singularly receiving the keys.
Do you agree that there is no place where Peter singularly receives the keys (whether that’s meaningful or not is yet to be determined)?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Hehe, I’ve already addressed these same objections as well.
Christ said I will give you. Do we think that Christ did not do what He said He would?
This was the first announcement of His Church and the ONLY announcement about giving the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Please note, it was said before WITNESSES. They understood the King laying His keys upon the shoulder of Peter from the scriptures available to them at that time.
**Isa 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. **
Right before His ascension, He singled Peter out, yet again. These were the last words of Christ as recorded in the Gospel of John.
**Joh 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:18 Amen, amen, I say to thee, When thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee and lead thee whither thou wouldst not.
Joh 21:19 And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had said this, he saith to him: Follow me.
Joh 21:20 Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee?
Joh 21:21 Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? Follow thou me. **
Crushed because the Lord told him, he would deny Him three times, Peter had returned to fishing after the crucifixion. Christ asked him, if Peter loved Him more than the others and then instructed him to ‘feed my lambs’, three times. The keys were only for when the King was physically absent. When Christ ascended, the authority came into effect.
No one dared question Christ’s singling Peter out, in either instance.
Humble as Peter was and the fact that the Lord singled him out in front of witnesses, Peter only once confirms his being chosen.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
As you say the keys were given in the future tense, Peter said God made a choice in former days. Where is that choice written about? Somethings were not written to refute any future objections that might arise, as they all accepted what was spoken about the keys.
(If you ask me for five dollars, would I say, I give you five dollars, or would I say, I will give you five dollars?)
Everyone realizes, or should realize, the keys themselves, were metaphorical and not physical. They represented an authority above the others of the Church, when they also received the authority to bind and loose, without any mention of keys. There was a distinction because of the absence of them being mentioned the second time, when Christ was addressing all His disciples.
Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Mat 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I messed the link up in the first post, it has been corrected above. Please feel free to post your views of the reformation there. Thanks.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
Thanks for your response.
I’ll try to respond tomorrow afternoon. Despite my best intentions I do good to get 1 or 2 posts in per day.
T
tweetymom
Guest
:clapping:
C
Celtic_Catholic
Guest
*Hello PS1! Thank you for starting the thread. The link isn’t working though. Could you please repost it?
Thanks again. God bless!
N
ncgolf
Guest
Yes that is true but do you have any citations where a single father denies the authority of the bishop of Rome, the primacy of Peter, or succession?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Perhaps I wasn’t very clear. Lutherans believe that the keyswere given to Peter, and the rest of the desciples, and therefore to the Church. That is why we also practice confession/Holy Absolution because we, too, believe the power to bind and loose, etc. are granted to the Church. Peter, of course, plays an important role in all of this because of his confession of faith, and his strong leadership of the early Church.
Our issues with the papacy have to do with universal jurisdiction, primacy, and more recently infallibility when speaking ex cathedra. IOW, very similar to the issues Orthodoxy has.
On Luther, his initial actions were to reform from within. He attempted to warn the pope that there were those who were practicing the abuses you mentioned in the name of the Church and papacy.
Jon
P
PJM
Guest
***My dear friend in Christ,
Placed in context and read as a passage vs. 15-19, not simply unrelated, isolated verses, and the message is exceeding clear. Even [IF] Christ were speaking to all of His Apostles [not only or particularly also His many deciples] it is clear that:
- He is Founding a New Faith and a NEW CHURCH founded on a New Covenant.
- Peter is to head this organization
- His Apostles too are to have a role
- That Jesus is providing sufficient authority to Peter and His Church to fulfill the mandate[the terms “bind and loose” in OT times were terms of Governance authority, given to the “keeper of the keys” literaly, as the king of the castle and fortified city, quite common then, delegated unlimited authority to Govern in his name and his authority. This would have been easily understood, at the time by ALL who heard it. That is why there was NEVER a struggle for power in the first century church.] GREED and PRIDE came later.
- That Christ specifies that all salvation is through this one Church
- The translation of “Thee” is MOST often “YOU.” as cn be seen from these Bible versions.***
**
RSV Bible:"**18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
DR Bible: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee [very much singular tense, as head of the Church.] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”
The terms of “loose nd bind” take on a second meaning in the NT Church as ALSO applying to forgiveness of sins, yet the understanding og power of unlimited governance is never waived or forgotten.
Certainly Luther knew this.
About 100 years after th Protestant Revolutation, Matthew Henrey would pen this explaination, from His “Concise Commentary.”
Our Lord next declared the authority with which Peter would be invested. He spoke in the name of his brethren, and this related to them as well as to him. They had no certain knowledge of the characters of men, and were liable to mistakes and sins in their own conduct; but they were kept from error in stating the way of acceptance and salvation, the rule of obedience, the believer’s character and experience, and the final doom of unbelievers and hypocrites. ***In such matters their decision was right, and it was confirmed in heaven. But all pretensions of any man, either to absolve or retain men’s sins, are blasphemous and absurd. None can forgive sins but God only. And this binding and loosing, in the common language of the Jews, signified to forbid and to allow, or to teach what is lawful or unlawful. *
**Love and prayers,
Pat
S
SemperReformada
Guest
Maybe, but before I go on a possible goose chase…why would it matter if a particular father denied what is now dogma for your church?
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Part 1 of 2
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Continued–Part 2 of 2
So, I had the needle-guided, surgical biopsy of the breast. This was a little more involved. The second part of the procedure was done under anesthesia. The surgeon was in the recovery room when I woke up. He said everything looked fine, and he didn’t expect Pathology to find any cancer cells. I was relieved.
One week later, I had a Total Thyroidectomy. When I was discharged from the hospital, the pathology reports for both the breast and the thyroid were pending.
A few days later, I returned to see the Surgeon who performed the surgical breast biopsy. To my utter shock, and the surgeon’ s as well, the pathology report revealed breast cancer.
One week after the total thyroidectomy, I had a lumpectomy of the right breast, removing a wider area of tissue, in case there were any cancer cells remaining—three surgeries, in three weeks (2 surgeries last part of 12/06 & 1 in 01/07.) Praise God, the pathology report showed “clean margins”—no cancer in the surrounding breast tissue.
Shortly after the lumpectomy of the breast, I returned for a follow-up visit to see the surgeon who performed the thyroidectomy. Having just received the news about breast cancer, I was really nervous sitting in that waiting room, not knowing what news the surgeon would give me regarding the thyroid pathology. Praise God, no cancer cells were found in the Thyroid.
Several weeks passed, and slowly I began to regain my strength–as my body began to heal from three surgeries in three weeks. I praised God, again and again, for the early detection of breast cancer, and for sparing me the agony of a mastectomy and chemotherapy. I would only need 25 radiation treatments (5 weeks.) I told my family and friends, I was probably the happiest person with breast cancer, you could ever meet.
Though I continued to praise God for all He had done for me, I had forgotten the words of my prayers to “bind and cast out” any cancer in my body.
Then one morning, in those first few moments upon awakening, when the voices of the world are still silent, I heard the words of my prayer repeated, “please bind the cancer, and cast it out.”
I realized for the first time, since my surgeries, that the cancer had been “bound.” I had Ductal Carcinoma In Situ, which is a localized cluster of cancer cells that have not penetrated the duct walls into the surrounding tissue. The cancer had not spread beyond the place where it originally developed. The cancer was literally “bound in the duct.”
As I thought of the rest of my prayer, asking that any “cancer be cast out”; I heard these words, “That can be done with a surgeon’s knife, you know.” I praised God with a joyous heart.
I knew, without a doubt, that hearing the words of the “T.V. minister,” who encouraged Christians to pray the words of Matthew 16:19, was not a coincidence.
Today, I could not tell you the name of the TV minister or even his religious affiliation. However, the words in The Gospel of Matthew, will be forever in my heart.
Not only had the prayer been given to me, it had also been answered. The cancer was gone; it was, indeed, “bound and cast out”; and I had been healed.
Scripture tells us that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, and intercedes according to the will of God, when we do not know what to pray as we ought:
Romans 8:26-27 (ESV): 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
It has been nearly three years, since I completed the treatment for breast cancer. I remain cancer free. I just received the news this week, that my PET Scan (done last week) was completely clear.
I think about this experience, often. I’m sure it will always be with me. I realized, by the Spirit providing the words to pray—that “the cancer be bound and cast out;” and then answering the prayer by literally binding the cancer in the duct and casting it out with the surgeon’s knife; God’s Name was glorified in so many ways.
The power of God’s Word was demonstrated, as the Scripture came alive, through the Holy Spirit. I realized that just as God is infinite, the power to accomplish His purpose through Holy Scripture must surely be infinite, as well.
Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the “Word of God is living and active.” This experience opened my eyes to this truth.
Hebrews 4:12-13 (ESV): 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
May God’s Name be Glorified, in the miracles He performs in our lives. May we never attempt to impose limits on God’s use of His Holy Word.
In Christ,
Anna
So, I had the needle-guided, surgical biopsy of the breast. This was a little more involved. The second part of the procedure was done under anesthesia. The surgeon was in the recovery room when I woke up. He said everything looked fine, and he didn’t expect Pathology to find any cancer cells. I was relieved.
One week later, I had a Total Thyroidectomy. When I was discharged from the hospital, the pathology reports for both the breast and the thyroid were pending.
A few days later, I returned to see the Surgeon who performed the surgical breast biopsy. To my utter shock, and the surgeon’ s as well, the pathology report revealed breast cancer.
One week after the total thyroidectomy, I had a lumpectomy of the right breast, removing a wider area of tissue, in case there were any cancer cells remaining—three surgeries, in three weeks (2 surgeries last part of 12/06 & 1 in 01/07.) Praise God, the pathology report showed “clean margins”—no cancer in the surrounding breast tissue.
Shortly after the lumpectomy of the breast, I returned for a follow-up visit to see the surgeon who performed the thyroidectomy. Having just received the news about breast cancer, I was really nervous sitting in that waiting room, not knowing what news the surgeon would give me regarding the thyroid pathology. Praise God, no cancer cells were found in the Thyroid.
Several weeks passed, and slowly I began to regain my strength–as my body began to heal from three surgeries in three weeks. I praised God, again and again, for the early detection of breast cancer, and for sparing me the agony of a mastectomy and chemotherapy. I would only need 25 radiation treatments (5 weeks.) I told my family and friends, I was probably the happiest person with breast cancer, you could ever meet.
Though I continued to praise God for all He had done for me, I had forgotten the words of my prayers to “bind and cast out” any cancer in my body.
Then one morning, in those first few moments upon awakening, when the voices of the world are still silent, I heard the words of my prayer repeated, “please bind the cancer, and cast it out.”
I realized for the first time, since my surgeries, that the cancer had been “bound.” I had Ductal Carcinoma In Situ, which is a localized cluster of cancer cells that have not penetrated the duct walls into the surrounding tissue. The cancer had not spread beyond the place where it originally developed. The cancer was literally “bound in the duct.”
As I thought of the rest of my prayer, asking that any “cancer be cast out”; I heard these words, “That can be done with a surgeon’s knife, you know.” I praised God with a joyous heart.
I knew, without a doubt, that hearing the words of the “T.V. minister,” who encouraged Christians to pray the words of Matthew 16:19, was not a coincidence.
Today, I could not tell you the name of the TV minister or even his religious affiliation. However, the words in The Gospel of Matthew, will be forever in my heart.
Not only had the prayer been given to me, it had also been answered. The cancer was gone; it was, indeed, “bound and cast out”; and I had been healed.
Scripture tells us that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, and intercedes according to the will of God, when we do not know what to pray as we ought:
Romans 8:26-27 (ESV): 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
It has been nearly three years, since I completed the treatment for breast cancer. I remain cancer free. I just received the news this week, that my PET Scan (done last week) was completely clear.
I think about this experience, often. I’m sure it will always be with me. I realized, by the Spirit providing the words to pray—that “the cancer be bound and cast out;” and then answering the prayer by literally binding the cancer in the duct and casting it out with the surgeon’s knife; God’s Name was glorified in so many ways.
The power of God’s Word was demonstrated, as the Scripture came alive, through the Holy Spirit. I realized that just as God is infinite, the power to accomplish His purpose through Holy Scripture must surely be infinite, as well.
Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the “Word of God is living and active.” This experience opened my eyes to this truth.
Hebrews 4:12-13 (ESV): 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
May God’s Name be Glorified, in the miracles He performs in our lives. May we never attempt to impose limits on God’s use of His Holy Word.
In Christ,
Anna
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Powerful post, Anna…thyroid lumps on women are usually benign; on men they are usually cancerous…so thankful the doctors were meticulous!
kathleen
kathleen
C
Celtic_Catholic
Guest
*God bless you, Ann. Very touching story. Thank God the breast cancer was determined and you remain cancer free today. You will be in my prayers. *
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