Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[graceandglory]

The condom is not the seed that led to the bad tree. It is the heart of man that leads to these things. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) Western civilization does not have a condom problem. It has a sin problem.

YES! This is Catholic teaching!!! :clapping:
This is what Pope Benedict was talking about!

From a biblical perspective, non-abortive contraception is not inherently sinful so long as it is not employed for selfish reasons. Sexual intercourse is primarily for bonding man and wife together as the two become one flesh. It is for procreation as well as for sharing love and experiencing deep physical pleasure within marriage.

Yes, and No.
Marital intercourse is for babies and bonding: Catholic teaching says it is both to be procreative and unitive.

You are wrong in saying you can have one without the other.
Catholic teaching takes morality to a new level. A couple that chooses to not procreate for a moral reason does not have to have sex during ONE WEEK out of the month. That couple can lovingly choose to abstain (fast from sex together) for a FEW DAYS. Which is BIBLE teaching. 1 Cor. 7:5 As the saying goes, Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder. Believe it or not, a couple can go without sex for a few days without going crazy. If you’re reading this, chances are you are abstaining from sex. Self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and self mastery over our passions and desires is virtuous Christian behavior.

Every Protestant and evangelical denomination believed this before Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood. You might be interested in the growth and acceptance of “THE PILL” in protestantism, and see the link between universally accepted contraception, and the legalization of abortion, the massive increase in divorce especially among protestants who contracept, and the rampant acceptance of fornication among most Christian denominations.

One selfish and sinful use of condoms for example might include the couple who contracepts strictly because they are too selfish to give up their upscale toys and high end lifestyle. In that case, I believe the use of contraception is sinful.

:juggle:

This is also Catholic teaching. Except we believe condoms are morally reprehensible in a Christian marriage, but would say that those are selfish and sinful reasons to use NFP in a marriage.

You would be intrigued to know Pope John Paul II wrote about this here in Responsible Parenthood, an explanation of Pope Paul’s Humanae Vitae.
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tb116.htm

For Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, see: On the regulation of birth
ewtn.com/library/encyc/p6humana.htm

Contraception: Why Not? catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Just the other night I saw an episode of 19 kids and counting. I’d never seen it before. They are a Protestant couple and the mother gave birth to all 19 kids! On the episode I saw, they were asked to speak to a Protestant church where over 4,000 Protestants came to hear them speak and they said the message they wanted to get across was “Be fruitful and multiple”.

Maybe not all Protestants adhere to their believe in Artificial Birth Control after all? This couple didn’t and they were out promoting their lifestyle of a large family.

I’ve not heard about a Catholic couple with so many children. If that Protestant couple’s promotion catches on, we may become out numbered.

 

[RCconvert7]

YES! A couple that chooses to not procreate for a moral reason does not have to have sex during ONE WEEK out of the month. That couple can lovingly choose to abstain (fast from sex together) for a FEW DAYS. Which is BIBLE teaching. 1 Cor. 7:5 As the saying goes, Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder. Believe it or not, a couple can go without sex for a few days without going crazy. If you’re reading this, chances are you are abstaining from sex. Self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and self mastery over our passions and desires is virtuous Christian behavior.

This is all well and good if your wife has a regular cycle. Also, according to Christopher West, if a couple decides to stop having children completely after a set number, even if they’re using NFP to prevent future pregnancies, they’re violating Catholic teaching. They might as well be using a condom. The sin is the desire to stop having kids, not the kind of contraception they are using.

 

[graceandglory]

This is all well and good if your wife has a regular cycle. Also, according to Christopher West, if a couple decides to stop having children completely after a set number, even if they’re using NFP to prevent future pregnancies, they’re violating Catholic teaching. They might as well be using a condom. The sin is the desire to stop having kids, not the kind of contraception they are using.

The greatest sin is wanting to control God rather than having self control, which we call self mastery over our passions.

Are you saying that in a situation where the wife is not “regular,” the couple would have a greater challenge and have to trust God more, and be “more open” to children than a couple who is “regular?” Or that the couple would have to have less relations?
And these are both bad things? Couldn’t a virtuous couple see that together as God’s plan for them on their path to holiness? Pope John Paul 2 has this to say to couples who are afraid to “Let Go, and Let God,” in this area, who are afraid to trust God with their fertility. Pope John Paul II says, “Be Not Afraid!”

 

[larkin31]

Letsdream and hope inocente ! Is it the ten commandments or the ten suggestions

God Bless

Of sexual behaviors, only adultery is forbidden in that list.

 

[onenow1]

Of sexual behaviors, only adultery is forbidden in that list.

In the first commandment, making a god of myself is ordered otherwise, anarchy{ disorder.}

Peace

 

[larkin31]

In the first commandment, making a god of myself is ordered otherwise, anarchy{ disorder.}

Peace

The first commandment is not about non-reproductive sex.

 

[onenow1]

The first commandment is not about non-reproductive sex.

On the contrary the first commandment is about everything, without it the other laws fail and we would know nothing at all about God’s commands. Rom. 1:25-27, and especially about obedience to God’s written word in scripture examples are numerous.

                                              Just a few :

Contraception Gen. 38:9-10, But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also

Against homosexuality Lev. 18:22, You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Against homosexuality (ancient penalty)
Lev. 20:13

Against fornication Mt. 15:19-20, For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man;

Against homosexuality Rom. 1:25-27,because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

Peace

 

[larkin31]

On the contrary the first commandment is about everything, without it the other laws fail and we would know nothing at all about God’s commands.

This does not make it “about everything.” It is about only one thing: believing in the Hebrew deity exclusively (shunning other gods worshiped in the cultural history of the region).

The rest of what you write was not relevant to my specific comment about the first commandment.

 

[onenow1]

This does not make it “about everything.” It is about only one thing: believing in the Hebrew deity exclusively (shunning other gods worshiped in the cultural history of the region).

The rest of what you write was not relevant to my specific comment about the first commandment.

It indeed is relevant ! The crux of all matters !This:>> obedience<< without it we are indeed on our own; without, I also might add, certitude and conviction that God exists; aren’t we to obey Him as our Savior and observe all He commands in scripture, or do we just pick and choose ?

It is also about natural law and that is God’s domain,He created all things including natural law ! Let’s see more to the point, any unnatural thing done with our own approval constitutes making myself a god over myself, thus,disregarding God !

1ST Command : I Am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery, { worshiping false gods such as >> Apples<< Satan is on the prowl, he tells that to God, in Job, several times when asked. Job 1 Job 2.

God Bless

 

[Rence]

It indeed is relevant ! The crux of all matters !This:>> obedience<< without it we are indeed on our own; without, I also might add, certitude and conviction that God exists; aren’t we to obey Him as our Savior and observe all He commands in scripture, or do we just pick and choose ?

It is also about natural law and that is God’s domain,He created all things including natural law ! Let’s see more to the point, any unnatural thing done with our own approval constitutes making myself a god over myself, thus,disregarding God !

1ST Command : I Am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery, { worshiping false gods such as >> Apples<< Satan is on the prowl, he tells that to God, in Job, several times when asked. Job 1 Job 2.

God Bless

Using contraception to avoid pregnancy is really no different than taking medications to regulate blood pressure, HR, or glucose levels. We basically pump people with all sorts of medications to make their body work longer than it should have, (and then compensate for the adverse effect of all of those medications, by taking other medications, and then additional medications to counter those) to the point of the mind disappearning, leaving behind a shell of a person wandering through “life” not knowing who they are or who they are, and not even recognizing everyday objects and people around them. There is also nothing natural about feeding tubes, ventilators, artificial limbs, etc. There is nothing natural about giving someone 12 different pills in combination to prevent death that should have probably happened years ago. To me that’s playing God. In addition, Protestants don’t need to defend their use of ABCs because their guidelines aren’t as stringent as the guidelines Catholics have. What needs to be defended is a Catholic violating Catholic law by using artificial birth control.

 

[onenow1]

Using contraception to avoid pregnancy is really no different than taking medications to regulate blood pressure, HR, or glucose levels.

Hi Rence, What you are suggesting,is a false dichotomy, these medications and tools are taken for regulating and maintaing life in a healthy manner.

There is nothing natural about giving someone 12 different pills in combination to prevent death that should have probably happened years ago.To me that’s playing God.

On the contrary I take four different pills to keep me alive and kicking,and a stint for AAA and eligard for metastatic cancer. Reviving people is that playing God? Life is not contingent on what we feel.

In addition, Protestants don’t need to defend their use of ABCs because their guidelines aren’t as stringent as the guidelines Catholics have.

It is the duty of the Catholic Church to, proclaim and teach the truth as Jesus did anything less would be a sin of omission.

What needs to be defended is a Catholic violating Catholic law by using artificial birth control.

Quite true and should be proclaimed loud and clear in all Churches so the body of Christ may grow in all truth !

Peace

 

[Rence]

Hi Rence, What you are suggesting,is a false dichotomy, these medications and tools are taken for regulating and maintaing life in a healthy manner.

They’re all medications and tools designed to prevent natural progression. For example, as one ages, their blood pressure tends to rise (from a combination of wear and tear on the body, as well as diet and exercise choices) … so they take medications to hold their blood pressure down. That’s stopping the natural progression.

On the contrary I take four different pills to keep me alive and kicking,and a stint for AAA and eligard for metastatic cancer. Reviving people is that playing God? Life is not contingent on what we feel.

I take four different pills too (two for my blood pressure), and I have ten screws and a plate in my leg. There’s nothing natural about it, it’s all synthetic right down to the synthetic thyroid medication. And actually, I didn’t make myself understood: I don’t think anyone is tyring to play God by taking medication, discovering new methods to regulate the body’s progression, conducting operations to modify the body (like your stent), or anything else. I think they’re attempting to elongate people’s lives, and trying to maintain their quality of life in the process. That’s why I say that taking ABCs is no more ‘playing God’ than doing any of these other things that regulate the body…

It is the duty of the Catholic Church to, proclaim and teach the truth as Jesus did anything less would be a sin of omission.

To proclaim is fine, just don’t expect everyone to subscribe to it If other religions don’t subscribe to the same rules that the CC institutes, their congregations won’t either. So it’s unreasonable to call on them to “defend” their usage of ABCs…there is nothing for them to defend…

 

[onenow1]

To proclaim is fine, just don’t expect everyone to subscribe to it If other religions don’t subscribe to the same rules that the CC institutes, their congregations won’t either. So it’s unreasonable to call on them to “defend” their usage of ABCs…there is nothing for them to defend…

If you proclaim something Rence you either do it with conviction, or your proclomation is not valid. As far as expectation, its always possible for anyone to see the light…:newidea: if it has not been brought to their attention. Have you ever considered the possibility, the Catholic Church is looking out for souls, as Jesus did in many of His parables, with a moral absolute, as He always demonstrated ?

Example : You would try to stop one from jumping off a bridge to their death wouldn’t you ? Though many eccliasial communities retain some truth, the fulness subsists in the CC, and must be proclaimed in every aspect of morality, that seems proper to building up the one true Church the Body if Christ. Jesus was a king that had an ambassodor who’s name was Peter.

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

1ST Command : I Am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery, { worshiping false gods such as >> Apples<< Satan is on the prowl, he tells that to God, in Job, several times when asked. Job 1 Job 2.

God Bless

That is not a proper citation of the first commandment.

 

[Mike2010]

Homosexuality was FAR more prevalent in Ancient Greece and Rome than it is today. Genesis implies that EVERY man in the city of Sodom (except Lot) was a homosexual (or bisexual) gang rapist. Even San Franciso has a few straight men.

Infidelity has ALWAYS been rampant. Look at the stories of Kings and Princes and their intrigues. And the people believed them to be “Ordained by God” to lead nations. David was an adulterer. A notable minority of Popes had illegitimate children. William the Conqueror, a VERY devout Catholic and the man who united England under one King, was an illegitimate son.

Prostitution has been a FAR more acceptable profession at different times in history, even in America.

I understand where you’re trying to go with your argument, but the idea that the world has gone to hell today and the past was morally superior is based on a misreading or a non-reading of history. Human nature has always been the same as it is now.

Okay. Good points. But aren’t divorse rates and promiscuity higher now than they were over, say, the last 1500 years or so? You can even see the radical difference in just the last 100 years. And I’m not saying that the world is all going to hell; I’m not one of those who says the end of the world is near because there are earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

 

[bjryman]

Okay. Good points. But aren’t divorse rates and promiscuity higher now than they were over, say, the last 1500 years or so? You can even see the radical difference in just the last 100 years. And I’m not saying that the world is all going to hell; I’m not one of those who says the end of the world is near because there are earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.

Hope you don’t mind me jumping in here…

Divorce rate is higher, in my opinion after doing a fair amount of research in recent times, due to :

1. Overall surpression of women in decline. (When women feel they have no way out of bad relationship, i.e. many Muslim women for example, they will endure what they have.)
2. When the male dominated legal and political world passes laws that provide a rather easy out for both man and women (no fault divorce laws started this)
3. When women can venture out of their own single role as major child cargiver. (Yes, The Pill)
4. When men realize that the stigma of divorce in the modern society is minimal…as is fathering children out of wedlock

These civil, cultural changes pushed by the Progressive movement in the last century or so, has created a culture where marriage is now a “preferred but not sole” option for couples.

This cultural situation is offset by the Church’s teaching, but the impact of that teaching on the baby boomer and beyond generation (full disclosure…I am a baby boomer)., has been offset by the continuous siren song of the Progressive movement.

One more point…throughout the Church’s history, its teachings and practices have not always reflected a proper view of Christ’s will. One need only remember the Inquisition, corrupt multiple Crusades, Witch Burner, Cultural Purges, not to mention the Priest pedofile issues. So one should be VERY careful when asserting the the Church’s teaching in total are 100% in alignment with Christs will. I suspect that when we as Catholics or our hierarchy speak with such certitude, it diminishes our core story somewhat.
Once the core story is somewhat compramised in the minds of our youth, then the above noted issues become even more likely to happen…and we end with later generations moving even futher away from the core story

Peace
bruce

 

[larkin31]

Hope you don’t mind me jumping in here…

Divorce rate is higher, in my opinion after doing a fair amount of research in recent times, due to :

1. Overall surpression of women in decline. (When women feel they have no way out of bad relationship, i.e. many Muslim women for example, they will endure what they have.)
2. When the male dominated legal and political world passes laws that provide a rather easy out for both man and women (no fault divorce laws started this)
3. When women can venture out of their own single role as major child cargiver. (Yes, The Pill)
4. When men realize that the stigma of divorce in the modern society is minimal…as is fathering children out of wedlock

These civil, cultural changes pushed by the Progressive movement in the last century or so, has created a culture where marriage is now a “preferred but not sole” option for couples.

This cultural situation is offset by the Church’s teaching, but the impact of that teaching on the baby boomer and beyond generation (full disclosure…I am a baby boomer)., has been offset by the continuous siren song of the Progressive movement.

One more point…throughout the Church’s history, its teachings and practices have not always reflected a proper view of Christ’s will. One need only remember the Inquisition, corrupt multiple Crusades, Witch Burner, Cultural Purges, not to mention the Priest pedofile issues. So one should be VERY careful when asserting the the Church’s teaching in total are 100% in alignment with Christs will. I suspect that when we as Catholics or our hierarchy speak with such certitude, it diminishes our core story somewhat.
Once the core story is somewhat compramised in the minds of our youth, then the above noted issues become even more likely to happen…and we end with later generations moving even futher away from the core story

Peace
bruce

Some very good points here to think about.

I am an agnostic that reads about the man Jesus frequently. He had a profound impact on those who met him, and later some of them wrote down sayings attributed to him. These sayings in many places have values and truths in them that are still relevant today, and will likely stand the test of time for thousands of more years. You may perhaps consider the “core story” to be different from what I consider it to be, but yes, overly confident self-righteousness can be the downfall of very valid persons and groups.

 

[onenow1]

That is not a proper citation of the first commandment.

All other commands fail without #1. That is ! the entire writings of sacred scripture.

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

All other commands fail without #1. That is ! the entire writings of sacred scripture.

God Bless

You just keep avoiding the specific point. I claimed that the only Commandment addressing sexuality was the one about adultery. Then you latched on to the first commandment to claim that it addresses all sexual mores. Which it does not. Not even the CC claims what you do about the first Commandment and sexual behaviors.