Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[onenow1]

No, not harsh at all, I understand.

It’s pretty obvious that the intent is to contracept, no? ".

Yup ! Bypassing a pure relationship, with an artificial outcome, seems to me pretty egotistical.

God Bless
Happy thanksgiving

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

innocente,

yet to the great abuse of his own body- Wesley

What did he do to abuse his body?

This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a Sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the semen, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed . . . He was inflamed with the basest spite and hatred . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed.-Luther

Here it sounds like Luther is saying that it is a disgraceful sin to lie with a woman and spill your semen.

the voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous.-Luther

Again, here he says withdrawing from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous.

It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is doubly horrible.-Calvin

Here Calvin calls deliberately spilling seed on the ground to avoid intercourse is doubly horrible.

 

[mark_a]

There’s no commandment. Onan didn’t wear a condom.

Are you kidding me?

Onan was put to death for not following instructions.

No. Onan was put to death for what he did.

In my branch the creed is basically “Jesus is Lord and the rest is less important so make up your own mind”.

What else could your branch’s creed be when it so obvoiusly denies it’s flock’s personal responsibilities to God?

Here’s an article that explains the Jewish and early Christian roots (which so many Protestants believe to have “reclaimed”) of the Catholic teaching.

rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html

 

[PbloPicasso]

We read the Bible in the Spirit, and so are reluctant to take lonely verses as gospel without good cause, nor do we accept that planting mixed crops or eating shellfish are sins. When I say “we” I expect that means all of us, not just Protestants.

So: Having fun isn’t unbiblical (in the context of marriage here). A condom doesn’t reject God any more than abstinence. Sex in marriage is about giving, not taking and would only be selfish if reduced to copulation, where the spouse is treated as a mere object.

The word “just” should have been added to that post. Sex just for fun is disordered and promotes a premarital and extramarital mentality. I’ve seen it grow out of control over the past 50 years.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

So there is no benefit to an older married couple that cannot have children enjoying sexual relations to enjoy sexual relations as loving partners brought together by God?

That is your arguement no children so why have sex even though there are profound health benefits, psychological benefits and spiritual benefits to healthy sexual relations between spouses. If a barrier method is used there is no conception so is no abortion the death of a human being as far as I’m concerned.

And to be blunt with massive global overpopulation in poor nations children can be a burden on a family and their nations, and the Catholic Church seems to not care. God allowed us to create birth control for a reason to limit having children in our growing population and we should use it. As long as there is no abortion like effect there is no harm and the fall of civilization is hardlydueto birth control being there on its own. The faith should instead lead promoting marriage, use of birth control that is barrier in nature among the poor and bolster the poor so that they then can afford to have families with suited social justice. Such as the Grameen Banks microlending to bring poor people more opportunities and with them make women valued for their economic benefit to a community. This then makes having sons less pressing and reducing the need to have larger families.

 

[bjryman]

When you enter into a dialog within this forum, you already have some interest in making your opinion known. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here. So, let’s start with that premise…we have opinions or are reaching out with honest questions.

The Church’s teaching on contraceptive use is the result of conclusions drawn from different sources.
My problem with the specific question of sex (let’s focus on within a Christian marriage) and contraception is that it is not a single focus topic.

What I mean is that Jesus and Paul, etc. have taught us to BE RESPONSIBLE with what we have, and within our own calling. Thus we need to be responsible with the amount of money we spend to survive, how we treat others, etc. Put another way, we must live within our means…not just blindly trust God and take no responsibility for our life management.

Thus, we have a conflict in teaching. On the one hand : keep having kids if the rhythm method isn’t working for you, yet accept fiscal and emotional responsibility for the outcome. Thus, I believe we are to have a balance and that includes use of contraception to manage our growing families. BTW, the person suggesting celibacy in marriage is ignoring another Church teaching that sex in marriage is the highest expression of love and union and should be practiced…(that direction would seem to say “frequently”)

My wife and I have three beautiful grown children and it was all we could do to give them a decent chance in life including a proper Catholic and College education. It was also a struggle for us to be ready for a proper, not lavish retirement. (Wife retired but I have a few years yet). We have been responsible for the good the bad and the ugly, always using Christian values as a guiding light. If I had it to do all over again, we would use contraception to manage our lives, and I look forward to being in front of Jesus on the day of resurrection on that topic

Finally, I sense that the reason over 50% of Catholics reportedly use artificial contraception is not in defiance to Church teachings, but to exercise our “informed conscience” as we are instructed to do. My conscience is crystal clear on this particular topic.

God Bless

 

[Reuben_J]

Sex in marriage is sharing an expression of your love, giving yourself to each other. It also releases pressures that could otherwise lead to adultery. Abstinence tends to work against both, and trying to make sex in marriage about procreation adds an unnecessary and potentially destructive tension. Sex shouldn’t be a big deal. Marriage is about love, not asceticism.

Thanks for responding. I only want to hear the view of non-Catholics on this subject. If I may ask, do your church has any basic stance regarding what is Christian marriage? The question meant to be general so you are free to tell me what you want me to know.

I am not challenging your belief but I may state my own if I thought it will not disturb the discussion just to show the difference. In this case, I will start by saying that marriage is a gift from God and that he is the Lord of such union. In other word, marriage will not stand by our human effort but the Lord being tangibly present there, he will also be the protector of such marriage.

In Catholicism, we call marriage Sacramental. If the couple practice what they think is in fidelity to God’s command, God will bless that marriage even though it may be seemingly difficult for the couple to follow. I am saying this but also I have seen such example in marriages, and truly I can see the blessing the families receive. The blessing include children who grow up practicing the faith, good relationship in the family, wholesome children, faith and fidelity among the family members and even unexpected providence. I am saying this because many marriages do not work too well and one of the reasons is that sins existing in such marriages.

Using a condom this time doesn’t stop us from not using one next time. The command isn’t about breeding like rabbits!

What about the sin of Onan? What do you think of it?

I suppose the command to be fertile and multiply does not give any room for closing to the possibility of procreation. And if we breed like rabbits, so be it. Ultimately, life is in the hand of God. He decides, we may plan but he decides.

This is where I get lost. Why is sharing your love and gaining pleasure naughty? What’s wrong with pleasure anyway? Jesus sets us free, so why this puritanical streak?

There is nothing wrong with pleasure and sex. In fact sex plays a very important part in marriage. Our understanding is that marriage is a gift of God for the couple’s marital pleasure. In that sense it can be view as sacred. But then again, this gift is given for a purpose, that is, uniative and procreative. It unites as the husband and wife cleaves together into one flesh; it procreates in that the possibility of life is created out of this union. Thus sex has to meet both objectives as God intended.

God bless.

edit:
This might be unnecessary but let say it just for effect. Sex is like a tool which when being used it should achieve its purpose. Do not use it if the intended purpose is not the intention. Like do not use a wrench as a hammer. This is partially in explaining that we do not necessary to breed like rabbits.

 

[IrishJoe]

NFP is using human understanding of biology to avoid (or not) getting pregnant.

Other ‘artifical’ methods are just our modern advanced way of doing it. Abortion is not good. I think we’re given such things so as to be able to give the best chance to our future children and of course no child would ever be unwanted if it did happen by ‘accident’ (no such thing!)

 

[Newbie2]

Sex in marriage is sharing an expression of your love, giving yourself to each other. It also releases pressures that could otherwise lead to adultery. Abstinence tends to work against both, and ***trying to make sex in marriage about procreation ***adds an unnecessary and potentially destructive tension. Sex shouldn’t be a big deal. Marriage is about love, not asceticism.

Using a condom this time doesn’t stop us from not using one next time. The command isn’t about breeding like rabbits!

This is where I get lost. Why is sharing your love and gaining pleasure naughty? What’s wrong with pleasure anyway? Jesus sets us free, so why this puritanical streak?

Sex is ordered toward procreation, that is the whole point. If it were not, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion about preventing it (procreation).

Not sure what you mean by “Jesus sets us free” in the context of this thread.

 

[inocente]

Curious Hobbit, mark a, Newbie2 – this is a reply to you too.

If I may ask, do your church has any basic stance regarding what is Christian marriage?

Course you can. In many ways I’d guess it’s similar – a covenant where the couple is joined by God vowing to stay together till death parts them. Their pastor, families and friends have a role in helping them to understand the magnitude of the decision and then in helping them remain true to the vows.

Two differences: Procreation isn’t mentioned anywhere, and there’s no requirement for children to be brought up in the faith (they make their own decision to be baptized when sufficiently mature, since we don’t see water baptism as having any value otherwise).

What about the sin of Onan? What do you think of it?

It’s worth saying that we’re minimalists even for Protestants. Christ is alive, right here right now, and that’s all that really matters. Tradition, rule books and so on are not for us. Bearing this in mind, I expect you were taught as we are to test scripture in the Spirit and so read scripture as a whole rather than pick out verses. From what I know of Christ nothing backs up the notion that Onan is relevant to artificial contraception (or very much at all ). From what I know of Christ there is no coherent message in scripture about condoms.

Well, no cause for alarm, there are many novel moral issues without pat answers. It doesn’t seem there’s anything specific about it written on peoples’ hearts so we need to work it out in Christ. Bluegoat gave an ace example in post #56, and while I don’t necessarily agree on everything, I do agree that sexual ethics involve a number of interlinked factors.

But the thought process can’t simply reiterate some carving in stone – if scripture isn’t alive then it’s dead.

But then again, this gift is given for a purpose, that is, uniative and procreative.

The only people I know of who argue in the moral sense that sex is purposely ordered toward procreation are those who accept the Aquinas version of natural law philosophy, where procreation is included in his catalog of moral goods. Other versions of natural law that don’t include procreation in the catalog reach different moral conclusions.

In any event, many Protestants haven’t signed up to any version of the philosophy, and in the absence of Aquinas sex in marriage is just sex in marriage. Theologians may provide enlightenment but are not authorities, and 1 Cor 7:1-7 rings true on its own account.

God bless.

And God bless you too.

 

[mark_a]

Curious Hobbit, mark a, Newbie2 – this is a reply to you too.

So the article was too long?

 

[Mike2010]

I can’t really argue that point as I’m not in the States, but…

The US has less than 5% of the world population and doesn’t express a median, so the stats can’t necessarily be extrapolated. The other problem is we can’t rerun history to correlate cause and effect, particularly when a number of other social changes will have had their own influences.

I do think attempts to conflate abortion with contraception are off-base though. There’s no reason why someone can’t be adamantly anti-abortion yet pro-contraception. There’s also no reason why someone can’t be against the pill but for condoms. Lumping them all together, as some want, feels as though arguments are being borrowed to shore up a case that can’t be made on its own merits.

An interesting statistic is that it seems a large proportion of Catholics in various countries accept contraception whatever their views on abortion. Despite the title of the thread, this isn’t a Protestant v Catholic battle.

You are right that there are a lot of Catholics that are okay (or at least dismiss it) with contraceptives. There are also a lot of cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose what they want to believe from the Catholic Church, and this is wrong. You can’t pick and choose what you want to believe. This doesn’t mean that it’s okay for Cathoics to use contraception - it is still a grave sin regardless.

As a Catholic you have to believe all the doctrines.

 

[inocente]

So the article was too long?

No, but my heart does sink a little reading an article that takes over 3,000 words (excluding footnotes) to explain 50 graphically unsubtle words of scripture , since it’s likely going nowhere.

The following don’t convince me either, though I’m always willing to learn how to be less selective when reading scripture.

*Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. – Lev 19:19 NIV

If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads – Lev 20:13*

 

[Mike2010]

So there is no benefit to an older married couple that cannot have children enjoying sexual relations to enjoy sexual relations as loving partners brought together by God?

That is your arguement no children so why have sex even though there are profound health benefits, psychological benefits and spiritual benefits to healthy sexual relations between spouses. If a barrier method is used there is no conception so is no abortion the death of a human being as far as I’m concerned.

And to be blunt with massive global overpopulation in poor nations children can be a burden on a family and their nations, and the Catholic Church seems to not care. God allowed us to create birth control for a reason to limit having children in our growing population and we should use it. As long as there is no abortion like effect there is no harm and the fall of civilization is hardlydueto birth control being there on its own. The faith should instead lead promoting marriage, use of birth control that is barrier in nature among the poor and bolster the poor so that they then can afford to have families with suited social justice. Such as the Grameen Banks microlending to bring poor people more opportunities and with them make women valued for their economic benefit to a community. This then makes having sons less pressing and reducing the need to have larger families.

A couple things from your post:

1. It is not evil and sinful to have sex if the wife is no longer able to produce an egg. It is natural for the woman to become permanently infertile in time.
2. The Catholic Church teaches that the ends doesn’t justify the means. You can’t do an evil to bring about good (in your case the good would be preventing an abortion). You can’t use contraception to justify that you are stopping an abortion.
3. As for overpopulation and hardships with poor families, it is not evil to limit the size of the family. You can NOT however achieve this by performing sinful acts like contraception. To say that the Catholic Church doesn’t care is utterly rediculous.

It is baffling to me how many Christians (Catholic and Protestant) believe contraception is okay when for 2000 years in the Catholic Church this has been intrisically evil. And on top of that, the founders of the Protestant reformation were completely opposed to it as well.

Is it a coinsidense that our culture started to become increasingly immoral once the acceptance of contraception became acceptable to many? (I’m not saying there was never immorality, there always has been. But it is on such a larger scale than it used to be in things like divorce, kids outside marraige, infedelity, abortion, homosexuality, etc. This has always been around, but nowhere near the levels that it is in society today).

 

[Mike2010]

When you enter into a dialog within this forum, you already have some interest in making your opinion known. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here. So, let’s start with that premise…we have opinions or are reaching out with honest questions.

The Church’s teaching on contraceptive use is the result of conclusions drawn from different sources.
My problem with the specific question of sex (let’s focus on within a Christian marriage) and contraception is that it is not a single focus topic.

What I mean is that Jesus and Paul, etc. have taught us to BE RESPONSIBLE with what we have, and within our own calling. Thus we need to be responsible with the amount of money we spend to survive, how we treat others, etc. Put another way, we must live within our means…not just blindly trust God and take no responsibility for our life management.

Thus, we have a conflict in teaching. On the one hand : keep having kids if the rhythm method isn’t working for you, yet accept fiscal and emotional responsibility for the outcome. Thus, I believe we are to have a balance and that includes use of contraception to manage our growing families. BTW, the person suggesting celibacy in marriage is ignoring another Church teaching that sex in marriage is the highest expression of love and union and should be practiced…(that direction would seem to say “frequently”)

My wife and I have three beautiful grown children and it was all we could do to give them a decent chance in life including a proper Catholic and College education. It was also a struggle for us to be ready for a proper, not lavish retirement. (Wife retired but I have a few years yet). We have been responsible for the good the bad and the ugly, always using Christian values as a guiding light. If I had it to do all over again, we would use contraception to manage our lives, and I look forward to being in front of Jesus on the day of resurrection on that topic

Finally, I sense that the reason over 50% of Catholics reportedly use artificial contraception is not in defiance to Church teachings, but to exercise our “informed conscience” as we are instructed to do. My conscience is crystal clear on this particular topic.

God Bless

With full sincerety, I wouldn’t want to be in front of Jesus on this topic with full knowledge of the true Church teaching and disobeying said teaching. To do so would be going against His Church, and we can’t pick and choose which Church doctrines to believe as Catholics. What your “informed conscience” says does not negate the fact that contraception is a grave sin.

I would suggest reading Humanae Vitae. Also, Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II.

Peace be with you.

 

[mark_a]

No, but my heart does sink a little reading an article that takes over 3,000 words (excluding footnotes) to explain 50 graphically unsubtle words of scripture , since it’s likely going nowhere.

Ok. So it was too long.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

I would like all Christians (protestant or Catholic) that use contraception to explain why they think that Christianity was wrong for all those centuries from 33AD- 1930AD on the issue of contraception. The early church fathers were against birth control, all Christians through the centuries including the leading figures of the Protestant Reformation all the way up to 1930.

Here is an article written by a Lutheran on the subject that details the protestant stance on birth control up to 1930 and what has happened since 1930. It is JUST an article but I just wanted to make sure people have some kind of an idea of what happened.

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

It just seems to me that we have nearly 2000 years of Christian tradition condemning birth control and now that we’ve come to modern times and we can mass produce birth control, there is a lot of rationalizing as to why it’s now ok.

 

[mark_a]

It just seems to me that we have nearly 2000 years of Christian tradition condemning birth control and now that we’ve come to modern times and we can mass produce birth control, there is a lot of rationalizing as to why it’s now ok.

Folks have always rationalized it, otherwise the reformers wouldn’t have had to take a stand against it.

The problem now is the implied righteousness of contraception which, due to the silence of nearly all of Protestantism, is now considered a “Catholic problem”, just as abortion is.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

I don’t think abortion is considered a Catholic issue only. In the U.S., Ron Paul isn’t Catholic and he tried to get a Sanctity of Life amendment passed. Mike Pence isn’t Catholic and he’s tried to defund planned parenthood, I think he’s gonna try again in the new congress.

Also I think there is much room for hope on the contraception issue. I’ve found several non-Catholic Christian blogs and articles online that protest birth control.

Here’s one by by Rev. Matthew Trewhella
mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/protestantprotest.htm

Here’s an excerpt from the Reverend. -

For too long birth control has been looked upon as a “Catholic issue”. It is fast becoming a “Protestant issue” however, as Protestant ministers like myself protest the heretical teaching of birth control that is being propagated in Protestant churches. We must understand that the Church had spoken consistently for 1900 years against birth control. Only in the last 80 years have Protestant churches begun to peddle this belief that God thinks it’s okay or wise for us to use birth control.
Listen to this quote, “The purpose of marriage is not to have pleasure and to be idle but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. Those who have no love for children are swine, stocks, and logs unworthy of being called men or women; for they despise the blessings of God, the Creator and Author of marriage.” some Protestants would say, “This quote is obviously the mad drivelings of some medieval Pope.” It is not. Rather, it is the founder of the Reformation, Martin Luther who said this. Protestant Christians need to realize that their leaders consistently spoke against birth control up until about 80 years ago.

Listen to these points from this article.
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

“ It is clear that there is a major rethinking going on among Evangelicals on this issue, especially among young people,” R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, recently told the Chicago Tribune. “There is a real push back against the contraceptive culture now.”

Conservative Calvinist publishers are producing books not only against contraception but promoting Natural Family Planning. A movement of Missouri Synod Lutherans is working to overturn their church’s current teaching and return it to Luther’s, and observers report a new interest in the traditional teaching among conservative movements in the mainline churches.

In his last years, Francis Schaeffer seemed to be moving toward the historic Christian view of contraception. Since 1980, several resolutions adopted by the Southern Baptists at their annual meeting have criticized contraception. By the close of the twentieth century, the Family Research Council featured special reports on “The Empty Promise of Contraception” and “The Bipartisan Blunder of Title X,” the latter referring to the domestic contraception program in the United States.

 

[onenow1]

I don’t think abortion is considered a Catholic issue only. In the U.S., Ron Paul isn’t Catholic and he tried to get a Sanctity of Life amendment passed. Mike Pence isn’t Catholic and he’s tried to defund planned parenthood, I think he’s gonna try again in the new congress.

Also I think there is much room for hope on the contraception issue. I’ve found several non-Catholic Christian blogs and articles online that protest birth control.

Here’s one by by Rev. Matthew Trewhella
mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/protestantprotest.htm

Here’s an excerpt from the Reverend. -

For too long birth control has been looked upon as a “Catholic issue”. It is fast becoming a “Protestant issue” however, as Protestant ministers like myself protest the heretical teaching of birth control that is being propagated in Protestant churches. We must understand that the Church had spoken consistently for 1900 years against birth control. Only in the last 80 years have Protestant churches begun to peddle this belief that God thinks it’s okay or wise for us to use birth control.
Listen to this quote, “The purpose of marriage is not to have pleasure and to be idle but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. Those who have no love for children are swine, stocks, and logs unworthy of being called men or women; for they despise the blessings of God, the Creator and Author of marriage.” some Protestants would say, “This quote is obviously the mad drivelings of some medieval Pope.” It is not. Rather, it is the founder of the Reformation, Martin Luther who said this. Protestant Christians need to realize that their leaders consistently spoke against birth control up until about 80 years ago.

Listen to these points from this article.
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

“ It is clear that there is a major rethinking going on among Evangelicals on this issue, especially among young people,” R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, recently told the Chicago Tribune. “There is a real push back against the contraceptive culture now.”

Conservative Calvinist publishers are producing books not only against contraception but promoting Natural Family Planning. A movement of Missouri Synod Lutherans is working to overturn their church’s current teaching and return it to Luther’s, and observers report a new interest in the traditional teaching among conservative movements in the mainline churches.

In his last years, Francis Schaeffer seemed to be moving toward the historic Christian view of contraception. Since 1980, several resolutions adopted by the Southern Baptists at their annual meeting have criticized contraception. By the close of the twentieth century, the Family Research Council featured special reports on “The Empty Promise of Contraception” and “The Bipartisan Blunder of Title X,” the latter referring to the domestic contraception program in the United States.

The Church has taught this from the beginning, its good to see progress and coming back to the Word !