Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

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If contraception was all fine and dandy, why didn’t Moses talk about how to do it “right”? Moses gave a LOT of very specific rules for a lot of different things in Leviticus, even things as mundane as how to properly clean mold off walls, or cleanse oneself after having their menses… but no where at all does he mention proper ways to use contraception. Not with herbs, not with any of the other methods and techniques that were common with the Greeks, Romans, Persians Egyptians and Babylonians …

Many point to the passage regarding the sin of Onan, who was put to death by God, for spilling his seed on the ground, and say that it merely had to do with his refusing to impregnate his brother’s wife, according to law at that time. Well, for one thing, punishment at that time for that offense, that is, the breaking of the leverate law, was not death, it was a public shaming, but not death. But God put Onan to death, why?

It is also the ONLY time a sexual act is graphically depicted in the Bible. Euphemisms are used at every other instance. Yet, in this case, the inspired author of Genesis is graphically specific about what is occurring. Why?

The implications of this for Genesis 38:9, where Onan’s sexual act is described in extraordinarily explicit terms, are pretty clear.
At least to me, and apparently for one thousand nine hundred and thirty years of Christians… the passages regarding Onan were NOT about masturbation, or ancient quaint laws, as many like to believe. Onan’s spilling of his seed upon the ground was his method of CONTRACEPTION, and for this, God put him to death. God did.… not the Jews, God…
Interesting. God tells Onan to have intercourse with his brother’s widow, not married to Onan, to preserve his late brother’s heritage. Presumably , therefore, Onan would have to have sex with the woman until she conceived and bore the baby. I don’t think that this is widely practiced today–at least among well, most Christians! I still would like the learned Jewish scholars/rabbis commentary on this! It’s probably somewhere in the Talmud. And, yes, Leviticus, with its myriads of rules, doesn’t refer to contraception.
And Henry VIII needed to apply for a dispensation to *marry *his late brother’s widow–I guess sex is OK but marriage is not. And the RCC hangs a *doctrine *on this passage?
 
I have the BC rod in my arm.

I had to get it because my periods were very irregular from the time I got my period to 3 years later when I got the first rod implanted.

I would get my period and it would never stop…Literally.

It became a very serious health issue as I lost to much blood and ended up in the hospital.

According to the Doctor the only way to stop this problem at my age was birth control.

I’m not on it for the purpose of “controlling birth” but to prevent hemorrhaging.
 
Well duh! How does that make it a good point.

Are you saying that God is condoning adultery and fornication? Because that "good point’ means exactly that.

Is this how you justify evil by saying that god approves of it?

You are so losing your hold on Christian morals all in your effort to defend the indefensible. :rolleyes:
Read post 270 and you will see why it is a good point. You are reading way too much into 2 little words. The Good point is that Joseph was not the real father of Jesus and you know it to be true. The Good point is not condoning adultery or fornication, I don’t see how you get that out of 2 words. Now I see things the way they are, ie, Joseph was not the real father of Jesus which is very true. You seem to see things there that are not there ie, saying that I’m saying that God is condoning adultery and fornication. Now about me losing my “Christian morals” I ask you where in the Bible does it say not to use artifical contraception? It don’t. So please don’t accuse me of losing my hold on Christian morals because they don’t agree with your morals. How does one using artifical contraception mean one is losing their morals? Now its up to you to defend your view.
 
The Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception (pill, condom, IUD, etc) is a mortal sin.

How are you able to accept condom use, etc? Do you not see it as the seed that led to a bad tree (sexual revolution, huge pornography industry, etc)???

I can not comprehend how Protestants have such varied views on artificial contraception. This might be because I have for most of my Christian life been a Catholic.
I can’t find a verse in Scripture that says it is wrong or commanded not to. If your religion teaches you not to then don’t if you adhere to that religion. Many who adhere to your religion don’t follow the command of that religion; so what are they labeled? Same with other denominations. I know when I was growing up it wasn’t unusual to see a Catholic family with 10 or more children and now you might see a few; so something must have changed because there are not less people calling themselves Catholic, at least I do not think there are less. I’m speaking 40 plus years ago.

I do think we all agree that some forms of birth control are actually premeditated murder, like abortion or that European pill that kills a baby (RU smething or another). At least I hope we all agree that murder is a sin.
 
Well noooo it doesn’t. Just because God made sex pleasurable does not mean that it is an end in itself. The command was to “go and multiply” NOT to copulate to your heart’s content and while your at it employ every contraption possible to prevent the creation of an eternal soul.
I referred you before to Onan.
And who said God did not want us to indulge in it? Of course He does. But God Himself has decreed through nature that the likely consequence of sex is babies.

As i said before, you want sexual bulimia - you want the pleasure but not the consequence.

Exactly! He did not make us animals. Animals can’t control their urge. When they are in heat, they are in heat period.

We on the other hand are human beings with intelligence, soul and free will.

We can control our lustful inclinations.

God has not completely decreed that you completely abstain from sex if for some very grave reason you need to control birth. That is why He has also made woman in such a way as there are fertile and non-fertile periods.

Note however that there has to be a grave reason for doing this. The one command that we know God has decreed is to be fruitful.
The punishment for not having children by your brother was public humiliation not death. And the punishment is supposed to be meted out by the Jews not God.

rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html

The childless widow, in the presence of the town elders, was authorized to remove her uncooperative brother-in-law’s sandal and spit in his face for his refusal to marry her. He was then supposed to receive an uncomplimentary nick-name - "the Unshod. But since he nonetheless became sole owner of his deceased brother’s house and goods, ** it is evident that his offence was scarcely considered a serious or criminal one - much less one deserving of death. Death, however, is precisely what Onan deserved, according to Genesis. It follows that * those who say his only offence was infringement of the levirate marriage custom need to explain why such an offence was punished by the Lord so much more drastically in the case of Onan than than it subsequently was under the Mosaic law***

Also Gen 38:10 states
What he DID greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.
Onan was killed not for what he did not do (have children by his brother’s wife) but for what he DID (spill his seed)

Well no. Verse 10 DOES NOT SAY THAT AT ALL.
That is a a sin of omission. What Onan was punished for was for what he DID, sin of commission.
I think you ought to re-read what you have written here before it does not make sense.

Perhaps what you means is “just because something was considered wrong for many yeears don’t meant that it is WRONG”. THAT, makes sense.

But do you even realize what you are saying here? You are saying that there is no such thing as objective morality. Why, murder is probably okay we just have not realized it yet? :rolleyes:

But you know what, the kind of thinking you have is actually in force now. At the rate they are killing babies, it is true, we have now come to a time when murder is no longer a sin.
I stand by what I said.

Reread Onan with a open mind and not what you have been taught. It clearly says he was killed because he refused to give his dead brother a baby. Onan is a weak argument against artifical contraception.

To go and multiply or be fruitful and multiply is found in Gen. 1:28. Now here Adam and Eve were the only humans on the earth so God wanted them to populate the earth. It does not mean you can’t use artificial contraception. Be fruitful and multiply is also a weak argument against artifical contraception.

You are reading too much into it. Murder is not ok and I’m not saying it is. Stop going to the extreme on things. I noticed you like to do that.
Now by your last statement I assume you are talking about abortion. I have never condoned abortion and never will. Please do not put my thinking in a subject like that unless you know where I stand on it. :mad:
 
I stand by what I said.

Reread Onan with a open mind and not what you have been taught. It clearly says he was killed because he refused to give his dead brother a baby. Onan is a weak argument against artifical contraception.

To go and multiply or be fruitful and multiply is found in Gen. 1:28. Now here Adam and Eve were the only humans on the earth so God wanted them to populate the earth. It does not mean you can’t use artificial contraception. Be fruitful and multiply is also a weak argument against artifical contraception.

You are reading too much into it. Murder is not ok and I’m not saying it is. Stop going to the extreme on things. I noticed you like to do that.
Now by your last statement I assume you are talking about abortion. I have never condoned abortion and never will. Please do not put my thinking in a subject like that unless you know where I stand on it. :mad:
I am in full agreement with your understanding/exegesis of Scripture in this “debate” and thought I would just say so. God bless you Mr, Kevin. S69

I would add that I respect the Catholic position based on their own religious beliefs and practices and at the same time respect those that do not hold onto such beliefs and believe that any form, just as you do, that kills a baby is murder and illegitiamate means of “birth control” before God.
 
Here’s a Jewish commentary on the issue of Onan:

“[Onan] misused the organs God gave him for propagating the race to unnaturally satisfy his own lust, and he was therefore deserving of death” (Bereshis: Genesis [Brooklyn: Mesorah, 1980]. 5:1677)

The early church fathers and all Christians up to 1930 including the protestant reformers (Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc.) all believed birth control is a sin and that Onan’s sin demonstrated that.

Here’s an article on Onan.

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9704chap.asp
 
…So really there is no reason that ABC should be used. Not only does it mess with a woman’s body and their hormones,its just shear laziness because you are saying you can’t control yourself.
Using ABC is “lazy”? Wow. FYI: unprotected sex requires the least effort of all.

I don’t think that you understand birth control use at all. You misrepresent the reasons that married couples use it. There are many many couples that practice a combination of protected and unprotected sex, like NFP+. None of this is “lazy” as you call it.
 
I stand by what I said.

Reread Onan with a open mind and not what you have been taught. It clearly says he was killed because he refused to give his dead brother a baby. Onan is a weak argument against artifical contraception.

To go and multiply or be fruitful and multiply is found in Gen. 1:28. Now here Adam and Eve were the only humans on the earth so God wanted them to populate the earth. It does not mean you can’t use artificial contraception. Be fruitful and multiply is also a weak argument against artifical contraception.

You are reading too much into it. Murder is not ok and I’m not saying it is. Stop going to the extreme on things. I noticed you like to do that.
Now by your last statement I assume you are talking about abortion. I have never condoned abortion and never will. Please do not put my thinking in a subject like that unless you know where I stand on it. :mad:
But Rev:
The penalty subsequently laid down in the law of Moses for a simple refusal to comply with the levirate marriage precept was only a relatively mild public humiliation in the form of a brief ceremony of indignation. The childless widow, in the presence of the town elders, was authorized to remove her uncooperative brother-in-law’s sandal and spit in his face for his refusal to marry her. He was then supposed to receive an uncomplimentary nick-name - “the Unshod.”
snipped from rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html
 
I would add that I respect the Catholic position based on their own religious beliefs and practices and at the same time respect those that do not hold onto such beliefs .
Including hormonal contraceptives?
 
Onan was killed for disobeying God’s direct order (to him only) to conceive a child with a particular widow to produce an heir. With Adam and Eve it is not eating fruit that is wrong, it is disobeying a direct order. And their punishment was rather harsh, too, and all they did was eat something (and they even felt bad about it!)
 
Here’s a Jewish commentary on the issue of Onan:

“[Onan] misused the organs God gave him for propagating the race to unnaturally satisfy his own lust, and he was therefore deserving of death” (Bereshis: Genesis [Brooklyn: Mesorah, 1980]. 5:1677)

The early church fathers and all Christians up to 1930 including the protestant reformers (Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc.) all believed birth control is a sin and that Onan’s sin demonstrated that.

Here’s an article on Onan.

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9704chap.asp
Yes, this is what a Catholic site would collect. We know what Catholic teaching is.

Are Jews opposed to birth control? Do they call anything but NFP (or the like) a “sin”? Orthodox Jews? Reformed Jews?
 
…You are reading too much into it. Murder is not ok and I’m not saying it is. Stop going to the extreme on things. I noticed you like to do that.
Now by your last statement I assume you are talking about abortion. I have never condoned abortion and never will. Please do not put my thinking in a subject like that unless you know where I stand on it. :mad:
The poster you refer to is on my ignore list for precisely this type of extremist smear rhetoric. Perhaps, since you are a Christian, he/she will abandon the practice with you. There is always hope.
 
The direct order came from Juda, his father.
Thank you. Correct. God killed his brother, then killed him (Onan). Both for wrongs other than simply coitus interruptus. God was directly involved in the management of this family, but you are right that it is actually Judah who tells Onan what to do. Obviously, God concurs, and backs the message with punishment of death for not following through. Judah’s request is NOT that Onan not practice coitus interruptus.
 
Thank you. Correct. God killed his brother, then killed him (Onan). Both for wrongs other than simply coitus interruptus. God was directly involved in the management of this family, but you are right that it is actually Judah who tells Onan what to do. Obviously, God concurs, and backs the message with punishment of death for not following through. Judah’s request is NOT that Onan not practice coitus interruptus.
Thanks.

I’m wondering though, since you are agnostic, you don’t even have a dog in this fight, do you?
 
Thanks.

I’m wondering though, since you are agnostic, you don’t even have a dog in this fight, do you?
I grew up as a Protestant minister’s son. I know Protestants inside and out. My “dog” is the occasional misrepresentation of their point(s) of view and thinking on these threads. I also am deeply opposed to the moral condemnation of birth control. That makes two dogs in the fight!
 
I grew up as a Protestant minister’s son. I know Protestants inside and out. My “dog” is the occasional misrepresentation of their point(s) of view and thinking on these threads.
Similar to myself, but I’m on the other side of the fence.
I also am deeply opposed to the moral condemnation of birth control. That makes two dogs in the fight!
Can you link me to your minister parent’s statement/teaching concerning contraception or sterilized sex in general? Thanks.
 
Similar to myself, but I’m on the other side of the fence.

Can you link me to your minister parent’s statement/teaching concerning contraception or sterilized sex in general? Thanks.
I’ll quote something directly for you:

I grew up in the UCC (my father is dead–I am over 50 years old).
**The allocation of our nation’s resources has an impact on the effective provision of health and human service. The Church must be a strong advocate for those priorities which serve life and human fulfillment. **
Those priorities include, but are not limited to:
C Access to the necessities of life: food, clothing, shelter and health care;
C Adequate, fact-based health education, including sexual and mental health,
for people of all ages;
C Improvement and protection of the environment;
C A just standard of health care that is accessible to all;
C An emphasis upon prevention over rescue in medical care;
C A revision of insurance and reimbursement mechanisms to provide preventive
as well as acute health care, whether institutional or home based;
C Access to effective birth control and safe, legal abortion;
C Access to the means to protect oneself from infectious diseases (HIV,
Hepatitis C, tuberculosis, etc.);
C The humane use of medical technology;
C The right to die with dignity.
from here: ucc.org/health/pdfs/ucchealthhumanservice-missionstatement.pdf
 
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