Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[mark_a]

Do you actually believe that you will talk to lost zygote souls in heaven? I have never heard anyone express such an idea before?

Since I believe in God in heaven and since I believe that life begins at conception, I don’t have much choice, do I?

 

[mark_a]

This statement:

Women on ‘the pill’ aren’t going to ‘meet’ their unborn children in heaven. Their unused eggs, maybe, but not their children.

works only if this statement:

Many believe that a zygote isn’t an embryo until it implants.

is true and excludes the “many” who believe that life begins at conception.

Their unused eggs, maybe, but not their children.

Now that’s one that I haven’t heard.

 

[mark_a]

All contraceptives prevent or kill life in one way or another and I believe shall be avoided.

Good for you. Is the LDS view of contraception the same as the Catholic view?

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes. Hormonal pills can work in a variety of methods, including the prevention of implantation of a fertilized egg. Now y’all believe that life begins at conception don’t you?

Morning after pills are a no-brainer. I wasn’t referring to those.

Yes, but conception is when the sperm enters the egg. Then the cells divide and so on. Now until the sperm enters the egg there is no life. Its just egg and sperm. They must come together to produce life. If you control this you are not kill anything. You are just preventing the 2 to come together. Now not every time you have intercourse will one become pergnant, why? Because the sperm and egg did not come together and the sperm did not enter the egg. So what would you call that? Natures birth control? See nature controls birth also. Is there a way to prevent life without it being a so called sin? No if you control birth in any way, shape, or form its preventing life from not occuring even the method Catholics use because it is preventing life. The intent is to control birth. so any method is wrong by the CC standards if the intent is to control life artificial or not.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well not quite.

For one thing it is you who got it wrong.
Here’s how Protestants ended up embracing something that they have always thought evil. Even the Synod of Dordt equated it to abortion.

I hope you will take the time to read the link.

Children of the Reformation * A Short & Surprising History of Protestantism & Contraception*

What happened with protestants is that they changed their doctrine to their practice rather than keeping their practice according to their doctrine.

What happened was something like: Since everyone is finding it difficult to remain faithful to their spouse, they declared that adultery is permissible. That is why Protestants ended up embracing something they considered evil before.

Same difference.

To prevent life and to snuff out life amounts to the same thing: NO LIFE.

In both cases, you are playing God. You are saying it is you who will decide who lives and who dies.

That is why when you (I think it was you) asked me what commandment was there regarding contraception I gave you the first commandment: I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have not other Gods before me.

Contraception boils down to idolatry: Idolatry of sex, Idolatry of the self.

I really don’t care about the history of Protestanism and Contraception. These are my views, not what some religion wants me to believe.

What happened to Catholics is they make doctrine first and then twist what the Bible says trying to justify the doctrine.

To prevent life and to snuff out life amounts to the same thing, even the Catholic way. If it is meant to prevent life then it is wrong, NO LIFE. correct?

No not playing God at all. But if you want to go there lets go. If the intent is not to have children, no matter what the method is being used, the final outcome is NO LIFE even the way Catholics practice it. So you’re also playing God if the intent is not to have children. Now Give me a example from the Bible (other than Onan and be fruitful and multipy because both of these don’t prove anything against contraception) that states artifical conception is wrong and a sin.

How do you figure contraception boils down to idolatry

 

[larkin31]

Since I believe in God in heaven and since I believe that life begins at conception, I don’t have much choice, do I?

Can a zygote talk? It was the* talking* part that flabbergasted me. Will dog zygote souls bark in heaven? I have just never heard of such a theory about heaven and communication there. Is this RCC dogma, that even a single cell can have a talking soul?

 

[4Squarebaby]

Rev:

How did the Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Orthodox, and 400 years of Protestantism get it wrong?

Are you talking about “artificial birth control” or the withdrawal method used in the Biblical example?
Islam allows for birth control except for sterilization and withdrawing because it denies the wife of the pleasure of the act.

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2;7392167:

Oh for goodness sake. Did I not just explain the reason for the “supposedly Christian comment” in the post you replied to or did you not read that bit?

That last comment was not written in a tone of Christian love at all. Also, that is the second time you said I didn’t read what you wrote closely (I know how to read, I’m a lawyer). If you think my request for clarification was so stupid, then it was better not to reply than to be rude and then repeat in bold what was already said.

That was said in exasperation! I had already explained the “suppposedly Christian” comment and yet you still came up with that kind of reply ???

If you have read my post, then what was the point of your post?

If as you said you are a lawyer, then surely you could come up with a better reply than that.

 

[benedictus2]

I really don’t care about the history of Protestanism and Contraception. These are my views, not what some religion wants me to believe.

You really do not make any sense Rev Kevin.

First you brought up the possibility that perhaps Christians later on decided that what was evil before is no longer evil, then when I provide you a reason for the change you come up with this.

This is the height of idolatry of self - I believe what I believe, right, wrong or indifferent.

Jesus said He is the Truth. So therefore, for those who follow Christ, truth SHOULD matter.

What happened to Catholics is they make doctrine first and then twist what the Bible says trying to justify the doctrine.

Nope. That was actually Luther. He came up with Sola Scriptura nd Sola Fide (which all amounts to Sola Ego) and chopped up the Bible to suit his doctrine. And you have been drinking that doctrine since you left the fountain of truth.

To prevent life and to snuff out life amounts to the same thing, even the Catholic way. If it is meant to prevent life then it is wrong, NO LIFE. correct?

Nope because the Catholic way, uses God’s given way. God has already prescribed the way for sex without conception you see. He built it into the woman’s cycle.

But even then, the Catholic Church says one is not to use this way, willy nilly. Only for Grave reasons must one resort to this.

No not playing God at all. But if you want to go there lets go. If the intent is not to have children, no matter what the method is being used, the final outcome is NO LIFE even the way Catholics practice it.

Nope. Because God provided for that. You can take your argument to God then for making the woman infertile at certain times of the month. In this case God provided the means.

So you’re also playing God if the intent is not to have children.

Nope, because you are not putting artificial barriers. You can still conceive because it is still open to God.

Besides, if you reason that this will still stop children, then how come you do not use it and instead use artificial means.

Now Give me a example from the Bible (other than Onan and be fruitful and multipy because both of these don’t prove anything against contraception) that states artifical conception is wrong and a sin.

I already did. Onan. Why do you want to not use Onan as an example. It is a very clear example. It is only because you are using a distorted Bible that you think it is not conclusive proof. Now if you actually use the KJV which most protestants use, you will see that it is quite clear about what the thing was that Onan did that God found displeasing and deserving of death.

God struck him dead for spilling his. How much more convincing do you want it.

How do you figure contraception boils down to idolatry

Because you idolize sex and self.

God says be fruitful and multipliy. But you want only sexual gratification and you don’t want the “encumberance” of children. So it is all about sex and all about self. Idolatry. Sexual gratification becomes pre-eminent and so becomes your god and the One True God takes second place.

It becomes sexual gratification at all cost, at the cost of disobedience of God’s will.

 

[mark_a]

Can a zygote talk? It was the* talking* part that flabbergasted me.

The talking terminology was yours, not mine. For all I know, communication is all done through mental telepathy.

Will dog zygote souls bark in heaven?

I don’t know if there are dogs in heaven. But I know there are no cats.

I have just never heard of such a theory about heaven and communication there.

Ask just about any woman who has had a spontanious abortion (miscarriage) and she will tell you that she will see her baby in heaven.

Is this RCC dogma

The proper terminology would be CC dogma.

that even a single cell can have a talking soul?

Actually, the dogmas are that abortion and contraception are always wrong. There’s really no reason for the Church to take it any further, at least for now.

 

[mark_a]

Yes, but conception is when the sperm enters the egg. Then the cells divide and so on. Now until the sperm enters the egg there is no life. Its just egg and sperm. They must come together to produce life. If you control this you are not kill anything. You are just preventing the 2 to come together.

Rev,

Somehow we are not connecting.

I’m speaking of breakthrough ovulations that can occur even though a woman is on the pill. The sperm enters the egg before implantation. The pill can create an unfavorable environment for implantation.

My question for you is: Does life begin when the sperm enters the egg (better known as conception) or at implantation?

 

[mark_a]

Are you talking about “artificial birth control” or the withdrawal method used in the Biblical example?
Islam allows for birth control except for sterilization and withdrawing because it denies the wife of the pleasure of the act.

Islam is all over the place with their teachings. Some don’t mind the pill because they consider pregnancy to occur at implantation instead of fertilization.

In the end, though, Islam has the same problem as protestantism: They have no universal authority over their faithful.

I read somewhere that Iran is below replacement level population growth. Yippeee!

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev,

Somehow we are not connecting.

I’m speaking of breakthrough ovulations that can occur even though a woman is on the pill. The sperm enters the egg before implantation. The pill can create an unfavorable environment for implantation.

My question for you is: Does life begin when the sperm enters the egg (better known as conception) or at implantation?

Well even when the sperm enters the egg life can’t begin until implantation. Until there’s implatation there is no life. But once implantion occures then life begins.

 

[mark_a]

Well even when the sperm enters the egg life can’t begin until implantation. Until there’s implatation there is no life. But once implantion occures then life begins.

Your response does not surprise me.

Anyway, Merry Christmas!

 

[benedictus2]

**Merry Christmas to Everyone on this thread.
**
Let All Mortal Flesh keep Silence

Let all mortal flesh keep silence,
and with fear and trembling stand;
ponder nothing earthly-minded,
for with blessing in his hand,
Christ our God to earth descendeth,
our full homage to demand.

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
as of old on earth he stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture,
in the body and the blood;
he will give to all the faithful
his own self for heavenly food.

Rank on rank the host of heaven
spreads its vanguard on the way,
as the Light of light descendeth
from the realms of endless day,
that the powers of hell may vanish
as the darkness clears away.

At his feet the six-winged seraph,
cherubim, with sleepless eye,
veil their faces to the presence,
as with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia,
Alleluia, Lord Most High!

youtube.com/watch?v=ka_8MeyqYvw&feature=related

 

[larkin31]

The talking terminology was yours, not mine. For all I know, communication is all done through mental telepathy.

I changed your word “say” to my word “talk.” Now you “say” it could be “telepathy.” Well, well.

Ask just about any woman who has had a spontanious abortion (miscarriage) and she will tell you that she will see her baby in heaven.

I started with my wife, who is a Catholic who had a miscarriage. She says that the idea of seeing a miscarried soul in heaven and having any form of communication with it is nuts. I told her that she shouldn’t be so harsh.

 

[larkin31]

Merry Christmas!

 

[mark_a]

I started with my wife, who is a Catholic who had a miscarriage.

So sorry for your loss.

 

[benedictus2]

I started with my wife, who is a Catholic who had a miscarriage. She says that the idea of seeing a miscarried soul in heaven and having any form of communication with it is nuts. I told her that she shouldn’t be so harsh.

Obviously your wife is one of those Catholics who do not know her faith.

Is it the idea that a child once conceived has an eternal soul that is nuts or is it your wife’s idea that is nuts?

Does she know for sure that baby she miscarried does not have an immortal soul?

 

[jrose90]

I haven’t really done much research, but I figured ya’ll would know the answer. What’s the stance about the use of the Pill for health reasons? Regulating menstruation? Preventing girls from having 3-4 periods a month, and then not having one for 6 months? The pill does more than just prevent pregnancy for a lot of girls, and a lot of girls don’t even use it as a contraceptive, just as a type of regulatory or upkeep medication.