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Irish_Polock
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By what you wrote in your above post, “normally” would insinuate that there is a abnormality in the teaching of the Church. If this is not what you meant, then why post a link for the benefits of sex?
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BlueShadow123
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then I guess the catholics that practive NFP need to stop having sex when she is not fertile.
Thats right, you can only have sex when you want to have a baby. Whats that? like 3 times in a life? If they are married, they can have sex as much as they want and it is not your place to say they cant
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BlueShadow123
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Normally as in often. Not normally as if something was abnormal.
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Irish_Polock
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So are you under the impression that if you use contraception you can have sex more “often”, then a couple whom is not using contraception?
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Irish_Polock
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As I noted earlier, the responsibility of spouses to produce citizens for the kingdom of God is paramount in the mind of Paul. From a theological perspective, this principle is brought out in 2 Peter 3:9. In this chapter, Peter is explaining that the Lord must let the earth exist as long as possible, despite the criticism of ungodly men. The main reason God allows the world to continue is that He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” Those God intends to save must first be born into the world. If the world is destroyed too early, then many of God’s people would perish, since they would not have been born into the world. The Christian family does not know how many children God has planned to produce from them. The Christian couple, then, cannot reach the point where they think they have had enough children. Only God knows when and who He intends to bring into the world. Consequently, if the spouses practice contraception, then they are deliberately putting themselves in God’s position to decide how many should be born and saved from their family. Since the only way God can save someone is to have that individual first conceived in the womb, then any form of contraception is an attempt to thwart God’s plan to populate His kingdom. Although it is true that God works out all things according to His will, man is not relieved of the responsibility to advance and sustain the kingdom of God. Contraception retards the advance of the kingdom.
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Irish_Polock
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I see you are now banned.
This is the reason I had asked you to expand on your thesis in post 459.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7407947&postcount=459
This comment only leads me to believe that you have very little experience in raising a family and Marriage. I can assure you that your augment - or opinion is not the reality of the situation and has little merit.
God be with you.
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rev_kevin
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What? You can’t be for real. God is allowing the world to continue because if he destroys it too early many of God people will preish since they would not have been born yet. Do you really believe that? How would God destroy the world too early? I’m sorry but this really makes not sense. By your logic a Catholic couple should have a bunch of children like the Duggers who have 20 children. I reall don’t think that is what God intended. In todays world it costs way to much just to have 2 children let alone 20. Not everyone can afford to have that many children. Now God may be putting a limit on how many children a couple have and his way could be through contraception, since there is no Biblical or Scriptural writtings to say different. How do you know that contraception is not according to his will? Now if the kingdom of God needs to be sustained then what you are saying is that God’s kingdom is not eternal.
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rev_kevin
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Thats how I see it.
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rev_kevin
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I didn’t say it was more justifiable for me. What I’m saying is that if someone uses contraception how are they killing. Once conception happens it still needs to adhear to the wall inorder for it to become life. Until this happens there is no life. Until this happens you are not killing a life. Is there any justifiable killing in your mind?
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mark_a
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Then how could God have known a prophet from before he was formed in his mother’s womb? Does God not know zygotes that don’t implant?
Not when it involves the most innocent of all, the unborn.
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Irish_Polock
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Many families in contemporary society feel that change in the moral and practical climate of the world justify the practice of birth control. For example, many claim that harsh economic conditions make them inadequate to care for larger families. This type of thinking is totally antithetical to Christian mores. In the Sermon on the Mount, Our Lord taught us not to serve the world but to set our hearts on the kingdom of God, and all our material needs would be satisfied. If God so feeds the birds who don’t toil or spin, how much more will He take care of those who are His sons and daughters. God knows that we need these things and He provides them to the whole world as He wills. There is no cause to inhibit the conception of a child based on fear of need, regardless of what the world deems as sufficient. The world believes that the family and children are a threat to society, as ironic as that may seem. Children supposedly require too much food, use too much energy, overpopulate the earth, deprive mommy and daddy of individual pursuits, etc. But these concepts come from nothing but the selfish heart of man. The world has no concept of the kingdom of God, and thus they cannot understand that we are producing citizens for that kingdom. All the world’s peoples are concerned only with this earth, because that is all they have. But the Christian should not be influenced by the world’s thinking. The Christian must seek first for the kingdom of God. One way he seeks for the kingdom is by bringing children into the world. If it takes more sacrifice, time, effort, love, money, etc, to bring children into the world, then the Christian should be willing to offer himself on the altar of service to God. He must not be conformed to the thinking of this world, but must be transformed by the renewing of his mind toward God (Romans 12:12).
I have little doubt that your theory of “God’s will works through contraception” is about as sane as someone declaring that “God’s will works through abortion” or “God’s will works through tobacco and methamphetamines” your theories are not what - as I understand - God has had planned for us.
Sustain: To supply with necessities or nourishment; provide for
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Irish_Polock
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I can assure you that this is not the reality of the situation.
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rev_kevin
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Are yu saying that God don’t know anything. Hes God who knows everything. Thats like asking how could God create the universe or how did God know his son would die for our sins. The answer is simple, HE’S GOD.
According to you and your teachings, Now you didn’t answer this question, Is there any justifiable killing in your mind?
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rev_kevin
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One way to he seeks for the kingdom is by bringing children into the world…Since when does our salvation depend on bringing children into the world? What about a woman who cannot have children because she was born in a way that prevents it. Does she lose her salvation? Where in the Bible or in Scripture is that written?
Abortion and contraception are different, one kills and the other prevents. Yes God has planned for us. Nothing happens that God don’t know about.
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JohnnyReb
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Well Mark, if we are talking about zygotes, we are talking about the situation post conception. Thus, that arguements only work against ABC methods that prevent implantation, but not against, say condomns.
I mean does God know us while we are an egg and a sperm? If there is no conception, then I don’t exist, and if I don’t exist, how could God know me? See the paradox?
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mark_a
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I think you took my questions out of the context of this thread. I was saying that if God knows someone even before they are formed in the womb, He knows this person as a zygote. Now is it right to interfere with God’s will for this zygote? I think its a legitimate question. Life begins at conception, not implantation, and just in case there is any gray area there, abortion is always evil.
I presume you are talking about a justifiable killing of a human being.
My answer is yes, for example: I could kill in defense of my family or myself or even another innocent person. I hope the need never arises.
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benedictus2
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Because God foreknew you even before you existed, since He is the one who brought you into existence.
And yes, God knew us while we were an egg and a sperm and he knew exactly which egg and sperm will bring about a you.
Read Psalm 139.
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benedictus2
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If they have not been born yet, how can they perish?
And helllooo, your ABC is preventing them from being born so therefore thwarting God’s will for them.
Now I get it, you are doing ABC so that you can thwart God’s effort at creating people so that the end of the world will be delayed.
**For the simple reason that He gave one command regarding this: Go forth and multiply and the one who tried to contracept, He struck dead. Just so everyone is clear at to how exactly He feels about this wicked thing.
He’s being very clear about this: Only He and He alone can decide who will be WILLED into existence.
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mark_a
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I see the paradox. And I agree that an adult was an adolescent, was a child, was a toddler, was a newborn, was a fetus, was a zygote. But never was that adult a sperm and never was that adult an egg.
Most Protestant pro-lifers are, I guess (y’all have a real lack of moral clarity in your teachings) against the morning after pill but not against bc pills for your women.
So many of us Catholics steer the question towards the abortifecient effect of the pill, because most real men will not use a condom with his wife. He will put her on the pill.
And as I said before (maybe not in response to you), the straightforeward Catholic teaching about Onanism is much more scripturally apparent than the Catholic teaching about abortion.
Now you may have read what Rev Kev said: He has concluded that life begins at implantation.
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JohnnyReb
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I see what you are saying. I think the distinction needs to be made, between contraception and actually terminating a preganacy. They can be two different things, but I don’t see the CC teaching it that way. Contraception prevents conception. I do think this is where the CC’s teaching about an Onanism comes in however, where the CC teaches the very act of spilling the seed to be evil. John Wesley also believed as the CC does and claimed not to engage in masterbation for such reasons. Non Catholics will respond that what was wicked in God’s sight with Onan was the failure to keep the law, not the spilling of the seed in itself-his act was evil because he did not keep the law. Once conception has occured, a pregnancy is terminated, a life ended. I appreciate your words about why Catholics stear toward discussing the pill, that makes sense.
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