Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[JohnnyReb]

Because God foreknew you even before you existed, since He is the one who brought you into existence.

And yes, God knew us while we were an egg and a sperm and he knew exactly which egg and sperm will bring about a you.

Read Psalm 139.

I never had read that before thanks for enlightening me

So if contraception keeps God from being able for form us in the womb, then NFP is just as wrong. We are preventing the creative work of God from taking place, either by artificial means or by abstaining from sex.

 

[mark_a]

Yes the church at a time said no to any form of birth control. That was a different era.

Actually, its still the same era. The Church does not say no to birth control, she says no to avoiding abstinance while shirking responsibility.

Today we are at the point of hurting the earth with too many children.

Do you have a source for that claim? I have one that takes a good hard look at that claim: overpopulationisamyth.com/

AT the same time if we have none the Gospel dies.

Muslims will surely crowd out Christianity all over the world, just as they are doing in Europe.

 

[mark_a]

So if contraception keeps God from being able for form us in the womb, then NFP is just as wrong.

Well. its not just as wrong. NFP can be used to enhance the possibility of becoming pregnant too.

Even in the Catholic view, nfp is wrong when used for selfish reasons.

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev, your logic reminds me of a friend I have who refuses to stop smoking because if God doesn’t want him to die, nothing he does to himself can shorten his own days.

A hundred posts ago, I thought this thread was finished. So I’ll check in on you later to be sure you haven’t changed your mind and decided to revert to Catholic.

Best wishes!!

Thats no answer.

Don’t hold your breath.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well. its not just as wrong. NFP can be used to enhance the possibility of becoming pregnant too.

Even in the Catholic view, nfp is wrong when used for selfish reasons.

Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?

 

[adrift]

Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?

How about health concerns? Do you consider having children selfish? I pity you if you do.

 

[rev_kevin]

How about health concerns? Do you consider having children selfish? I pity you if you do.

Please do not put words in my mouth thats not nice. :tsktsk: I never said and I repeat, I never said having children is selfish. Please back up your statement by showing me where I said that.
What health concerns?
What does health concerns have to do with NFP? Please explain.

Now lets put things into context about what I said OK.
There was a statement that goes like this: “Even the Catholics view nfp is wrong if used for selfish reason.”
I replyed: “Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?”

Now lets break it down: If one don’t want to have children and they practice NFP wouldn’t that be selfish because you are doing it without the intent of having a child, keep in mind NFP is a practice NOT to have children, so if NFP is practiced not to have a child, you would be doing it for your own self-satisfaction and the satisfaction of your spouse which boils down to selfish reasons on both of you. Now you could say its to show my spouse I love them which is all fine. But lets be honest here, it a combination of both, showing love for your spouse and so you can be satisfied which again boils down to self-satisfaction. The husband want to satisfy his wife and the wife wants to satisfy her husband with a slim chance that a child may and I repeat, may come out of this act, but remember the intent is NOT to have a child.

Where in what I just explained do you see in the above anything about me considering having children selfish???

 

[benedictus2]

Me I see a line starting from the embrace of artificial contraception in the 1960’s straight through to the end of the family with genetic engineering/manipulation and transhumanism.

Yes, that is exactly what I wrote in another thread a year ago.

Contraception, Abortion, Eugenics, Euthansia, it is always about the self. I/Me/Myself amd God so will decide who will be WILLED into being and who WILL be killed.

It is nothing more than Adam and Eve’s sin : Non Serviam.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh now here we go again with the repeating from you. :tsktsk::tsktsk: Its the “be fruitful and multiply” arguement and the “Onan” arguement thing again. Can you please come up with something else.

Here is another reason why your argument that God did not forbid contraception is wrong.

God said: Be Fruitful and Multiply. With that kind of command it is stupid to say that God did not forbid contraception because He already did with that statement. Contraception goes against the command of being fruitful and multiplying.

Here’s another example. Jesus said love your neighbour. And here’s Rev Kevin saying : Well it does not mean that I am not allowed to hate my neighbour because after all he did not give us a command forbidding us from hating our neighbour.

Can you see a “well duh”, coming there?

Ger the drift?

 

[benedictus2]

Oh now here we go again with the repeating from you. :tsktsk::tsktsk: Its the “be fruitful and multiply” arguement and the “Onan” arguement thing again. Can you please come up with something else.

Okay, how about this:

**What does the Bible say about children? That they are a blessing. **

Psalm 127:3-5 “Behold sons are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth. Happy the man whose quiver is filled with them; they shall not be put to shame when they contend with the enemies at the gate.”
Psalm 128:1-4 “Happy are those who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways! For you shall eat the fruit of your handiwork; happy shall you be, and favored. Your wife shall be like a fruitful vine in the recesses of your home; your children like olive plants around your table. Behold, thus is the man blessed who fears the Lord.”
Exodus 23:25-26 “The Lord, your God, you shall worship; then I will bless your food and drink, and I will remove all sickness from your midst; no woman in your land will be barren or miscarry; and I will give you a full span of life.”
Deuteronomy 7:13-14 “As your reward for heeding these decrees and observing them carefully, the Lord, your God, will keep with you the merciful covenant which he promised on oath to your fathers. He will love and bless and multiply you; he will bless the fruit of your womb… You will be blessed above all peoples; no man or woman among you shall be childless…”
**
How come the, you are stopping God from blessing you? How come you are refusing God’s blessing?

Why are you throwing God’s blessing back in His face?**

 

[benedictus2]

Please do not put words in my mouth thats not nice. :tsktsk: I never said and I repeat, I never said having children is selfish. Please back up your statement by showing me where I said that.
What health concerns?
What does health concerns have to do with NFP? Please explain.

How about A LOT. NFP is only prescribed for grave reasons. NFP is not to be used for selfish reasons the same way you do ABC, for self-gratification and idolatry of sex.

Now lets put things into context about what I said OK.
There was a statement that goes like this: “Even the Catholics view nfp is wrong if used for selfish reason.”
I replyed: “Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?”

To use NFP because of a grave danger to the health of the mother is not selfish.

Now lets break it down: If one don’t want to have children and they practice NFP wouldn’t that be selfish because you are doing it without the intent of having a child, keep in mind NFP is a practice NOT to have children,

Nope, as I said before NFP is only to be used for grave reasons such as the health of the mother not because you feel children are an encumberance, which is what those who practice ABC use ABC for.

**Let me ask you this: If you think NFP is the same, then why don’t you use NFP? Please answer that?
**
The plain and simple fact Rev Kevin is that you do not trust God.
You do not trust that He knows how to provide for you. You pretend to love and trust the Lord but that is all just lip service because when push comes to shove, you insist on your will to the devil with His command.

Tony Warren sums this up well:

Proverbs 22:28

•    * "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set." *

• If our fathers gleaned their doctrines from the word of God, and wouldn’t go beyond the boundary of what was in scripture, why would we remove the marks of those bounds? The answer (unfortunately) is that modern man has developed a prideful contempt for the Lordship of Christ in all things. He wants control of his own life and so won’t surrender his crown, that Christ be Lord in this area of his life*. In essence, he surmises that God won’t be vigilant or understanding of his wants, and so decides to seize control of the creation process for himself. In this he is replacing the will of God, with the will of man. And when that happens, man is destined for a fall. Can man understand better than God can what we are, and not able to handle in our lives?

 

[mark_a]

Thats no answer.

Alright then, I affirm being open to life and God’s plan just a strongly as you deny it.

 

[mark_a]

Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?

I agree with what you are saying. Except for the periodic abstinence required by nfp and the absence of the potential abortifecient effect of the pill, nfp has the potential to be just as selfish as other forms of contraception.

 

[adrift]

Please do not put words in my mouth thats not nice. :tsktsk: I never said and I repeat, I never said having children is selfish. Please back up your statement by showing me where I said that.

Your statement that NFP is selfish did not clarify if you meant all usage. That is why I asked you to clarify. NFP may be used to achieve pregnancy. You asked

Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t for selfish reasons?

You didn’t distinguished between those who use it to not to get pregnant and those who use it to get pregnant. I did not put words in your mouth. You weren’t clear. You are putting words in my mouth since I only asked you to clarify your position. By not being clear that NFP used to achieve pregnancy is not selfish you left it seem that you thought it was since you said Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t selfish?

What health concerns?
What does health concerns have to do with NFP? Please explain.

already answered by benedictus2.

 

[JohnnyReb]

How about health concerns? Do you consider having children selfish? I pity you if you do.

You can use ABC for health reasons too. But the CC says its always wrong, and you’re selfish if you do. I love how people think they know someone else’s heart.

 

[larkin31]

…Do you consider having children selfish? I pity you if you do.

He wrote that it “could” be. Which is correct. And yes, for some folks the drive to have children is selfish: it pleases THEM, and they seek that pleasure, and even once they have had kids, their own pleasure and happiness remains tantamount. Do you deny this? Why try to shame someone who sees that some people are very selfish parents?

 

[rev_kevin]

Here is another reason why your argument that God did not forbid contraception is wrong.

God said: Be Fruitful and Multiply. With that kind of command it is stupid to say that God did not forbid contraception because He already did with that statement. Contraception goes against the command of being fruitful and multiplying.

Here’s another example. Jesus said love your neighbour. And here’s Rev Kevin saying : Well it does not mean that I am not allowed to hate my neighbour because after all he did not give us a command forbidding us from hating our neighbour.

Can you see a “well duh”, coming there?

Ger the drift?

When did God say be fruitful and multiply? HMM lets see, in Genesis 1:27-28 So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them. God blessed them and told them, 'Multiply and fill the earth…" Then again in Genesis 9: God blessed Noah and his sons and told them, “Multiply and fill the earth.” In verse 7 God said, “Now you must have many children and repopulate the earth, yes multiply and fill the earth!”

Now lets see, the first one was to populate the earth and the second one was to repopulate the earth and it has not been said since. The phrase “Multiply and fill the earth” was meant to populate it in the beginning and to repopulate it after God flooded the earth and killed everyone except Nosh and his family, It has not been said again. So your argument is debunked.
Show me there this is said again besides to populate and repopulate the earth?

Now you are putting words in my mouth trying to make me look bad. :tsktsk: I thought you a better person than that. You are comparing apples to oranges here. You are now reaching for straws. I can love you in a Christian way but I don’t have to like you. See the difference.

 

[rev_kevin]

Okay, how about this:

**What does the Bible say about children? That they are a blessing. **

Psalm 127:3-5 “Behold sons are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth. Happy the man whose quiver is filled with them; they shall not be put to shame when they contend with the enemies at the gate.”
Psalm 128:1-4 “Happy are those who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways! For you shall eat the fruit of your handiwork; happy shall you be, and favored. Your wife shall be like a fruitful vine in the recesses of your home; your children like olive plants around your table. Behold, thus is the man blessed who fears the Lord.”
Exodus 23:25-26 “The Lord, your God, you shall worship; then I will bless your food and drink, and I will remove all sickness from your midst; no woman in your land will be barren or miscarry; and I will give you a full span of life.”
Deuteronomy 7:13-14 “As your reward for heeding these decrees and observing them carefully, the Lord, your God, will keep with you the merciful covenant which he promised on oath to your fathers. He will love and bless and multiply you; he will bless the fruit of your womb… You will be blessed above all peoples; no man or woman among you shall be childless…”
**
How come the, you are stopping God from blessing you? How come you are refusing God’s blessing?

Why are you throwing God’s blessing back in His face?**

I never denied that children are gifts from God.

Both Psalms have to do with children that are allready born. We should treat the well, love them. It has nothing to do with contraception.

Exodus has to do with Idol worship warning against it.

Deuteronomy is not talking about individuals but a nation.

I have 5 children that God blessed me with. 3 are grown and on their own and 2 are still at home. I have been a father since I was 16 years old and I am not 49. My youngest is 10. I have fulfilled my obligation and brought children into this world. Maybe not 12 or 20 but 5. I have raised 3 on my own and I have a wife to help with the last 2. If I would have refused God’s blessings I would not have raised them by my self. After 33 years of raising children and I’m still not done raising. I think I have done my fare share of obeying God’s will. I"m in no way throwing God’s blessings back in his face. I love all my children. I just don’t want anymore, I can’t afford any more. I live on a fix income and raising the 2 I have at home is difficult in todays society. So please do not accuse me of not wanting Gods blessings.
How many children do you have?
When you practice NFP you are not wanting to have a child so infact you are also stopping God from blessing you. When the woman is the most fertil you don’t have sex with her because that would more then likely produce a child so you are infact denying God’s blessing. So don’t give me that goody goody two shows junk. The intent of NFP is NOT to have a child.

 

[mark_a]

I have 5 children that God blessed me with. 3 are grown and on their own and 2 are still at home. I have been a father since I was 16 years old and I am not 49. My youngest is 10. I have fulfilled my obligation and brought children into this world. Maybe not 12 or 20 but 5. I have raised 3 on my own and I have a wife to help with the last 2. If I would have refused God’s blessings I would not have raised them by my self. After 33 years of raising children and I’m still not done raising. I think I have done my fare share of obeying God’s will. I"m in no way throwing God’s blessings back in his face. I love all my children.

God bless you and your beautiful family!

 

[rev_kevin]

How about A LOT. NFP is only prescribed for grave reasons. NFP is not to be used for selfish reasons the same way you do ABC, for self-gratification and idolatry of sex.
To use NFP because of a grave danger to the health of the mother is not selfish.

Nope, as I said before NFP is only to be used for grave reasons such as the health of the mother not because you feel children are an encumberance, which is what those who practice ABC use ABC for.

**Let me ask you this: If you think NFP is the same, then why don’t you use NFP? Please answer that?
**
The plain and simple fact Rev Kevin is that you do not trust God.
You do not trust that He knows how to provide for you. You pretend to love and trust the Lord but that is all just lip service because when push comes to shove, you insist on your will to the devil with His command.

Tony Warren sums this up well:

Proverbs 22:28

•    * "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set." *

• If our fathers gleaned their doctrines from the word of God, and wouldn’t go beyond the boundary of what was in scripture, why would we remove the marks of those bounds? The answer (unfortunately) is that modern man has developed a prideful contempt for the Lordship of Christ in all things. He wants control of his own life and so won’t surrender his crown, that Christ be Lord in this area of his life*. In essence, he surmises that God won’t be vigilant or understanding of his wants, and so decides to seize control of the creation process for himself. In this he is replacing the will of God, with the will of man. And when that happens, man is destined for a fall. Can man understand better than God can what we are, and not able to handle in our lives?

What grave dangers of the womans health are you talking about.
There are a lot of medication that cause grave dangers to anyone’s health, do you not take them or would you not take them?
If a woman has her tubes tied what grave dangers are there from that.
NFP is used for the same reason so don’t give me that load of stuff. YOU practice NFP so you won’t have a child plain and simple. YOU DON"T WANT A CHILD!

If its the same then it would be my and my spouses choice on what method to use.

NOW, NOW here you go, I don’t trust God now. It’s just lip service. You have no idea how much I trust God. I trusted him every time I went into a buring structure that he would bring me and my fellow firefighters out alive. I trusted him every time I had a high rise rescue the he would not let the rope break and me plunge to my death. How dare you say I don’t trust God. I have trusted him with my life literally with my life every day every night so DO NOT EVER PUT TO QUESTION MY TRUST IN GOD UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR A FACT!

You are really pushing and grabbing for straws if you have to result to this kind of tactics.

I for one have never questioned you on your trust in God why because I’m a better person than that.