Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[rev_kevin]

Alright then, I affirm being open to life and God’s plan just a strongly as you deny it.

Mark
I don’t deny it I just see it differently then you.

 

[rev_kevin]

Your statement that NFP is selfish did not clarify if you meant all usage. That is why I asked you to clarify. NFP may be used to achieve pregnancy. You asked
You didn’t distinguished between those who use it to not to get pregnant and those who use it to get pregnant. I did not put words in your mouth. You weren’t clear. You are putting words in my mouth since I only asked you to clarify your position. By not being clear that NFP used to achieve pregnancy is not selfish you left it seem that you thought it was since you said Why else would you use NFP if it wasn’t selfish?

already answered by benedictus2.

Sure it can be used to achive pregnantcy but lets be honest here most use it so they won’t get pregnant.
You don’t distingush those who use artifical conception with wanting to have a child you see their want to have a child a being selfish because it’s not done the way you would like it to be done. You say that adoption for these people who can’t have children in the normal sexual way because of one reason or another that they should only adopt. What a double standard.

If used not to get pregnant then it is used for selfish reasons. If the outcome is to use it to get pregnant why use it at all. A woman can get pregnant anytime not only when she is most fertil.

 

[mark_a]

Mark
I don’t deny it I just see it differently then you.

Ok Rev.

There are good people on both sides of the issue.

 

[rev_kevin]

Ok Rev.

There are good people on both sides of the issue.

Agreed:thumbsup:

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

I know that you asked Rev Kev, but I already gave an answer to this question: western religions (including Islam) all share an extreme form of body/soul dualism and an emphasis on the impurity of flesh and purity of spirit. Around sexuality, this dualism is further polarized to the point that this very deeply physical and pleasurable act is morally permissible ONLY in service of God. It should be no surprise that Christianity continues this same Jewish philosophical approach, since Christianity was born as a movement within Judaism. Islam, too, was quite familiar with both Jewish and Christian doctrine, and shares their body/soul dualism and emphasis on purity law.

Hey Larkin,

I know you answered this already and I’m sorry for never responding to it. I was looking for an answer from someone who holds to the Christian faith and how a Christian reconciles the tradition of these passages being interpreted one way with a different interpretation. I see what you’re getting at with your response, but i don’t think your answer is one that a Christian would necessarily hold because it calls other things into question like homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, etc. and not just birth control.

 

[benedictus2]

When did God say be fruitful and multiply? HMM lets see, in Genesis 1:27-28 So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them. God blessed them and told them, 'Multiply and fill the earth…" Then again in Genesis 9: God blessed Noah and his sons and told them, “Multiply and fill the earth.” In verse 7 God said, “Now you must have many children and repopulate the earth, yes multiply and fill the earth!”

Now lets see, the first one was to populate the earth and the second one was to repopulate the earth and it has not been said since. The phrase “Multiply and fill the earth” was meant to populate it in the beginning and to repopulate it after God flooded the earth and killed everyone except Nosh and his family, It has not been said again. So your argument is debunked.

Sorry but it is so not debunked.

When did God say that the command no longer applies?

**Where in the Bible did God say that now that there are already a lot of people, you must stop bringing forth chidlren?

Where in the Bible did God change His Command?**

On the contrary, this command He re-inforces in the psalms and other texts of the Bible by reiterating that children is how He blesses us.

So think again.

Show me there this is said again besides to populate and repopulate the earth?

Show me where God said to stop. Show me where God changed His command.

Until the God says it is no longer to be done, then the command is in force.

God gave us the Ten Commandments then and that is still in force now no matter what relativists think.

Now you are putting words in my mouth trying to make me look bad. :tsktsk: I thought you a better person than that.

And I am a better person than that. You just did not know how to read my post.

What I did was take your reasoning with regards “go forth and multiply” and showing you for the faulty and erroneous reasoning that it is by applying it to Jesus’s command to love.

There are two ways of giving a command: the positive way DO and the negative way DON’T.

The DO means that you are to refrain from doing it’s opposite.

When God said Love, He means you are not supposed to do it’s opposite which is to hate.

When God said “go forth and multiply”, He meant that you are not supposed to do the opposite by thwarting His will to created new people.

Very, very simple. Very, very logical

You are comparing apples to oranges here. You are now reaching for straws.

Nope, as i have shown above. Not comparing apples and oranges.

You’ve been hard pressed from the beginning to defend your position because your position is indefensible.

Now I’ve shown you how illogical and irrational your position is.

I can love you in a Christian way but I don’t have to like you. See the difference.

Well, yes there is a difference between those two but that is not what I was saying.

The difference I am highlighting was not between love and like but between love and hate. They are opposites.

So is “going forth and multiplying” and “contracepting” they are opposites.

Once God had given the positive command “multiply” that means He is forbidding the opposite “contracept”

Once God has given the positive command “love”, He is forbidding the opposite " hate".

 

[benedictus2]

I never had read that before thanks for enlightening me

So if contraception keeps God from being able for form us in the womb, then NFP is just as wrong. We are preventing the creative work of God from taking place, either by artificial means or by abstaining from sex.

Yes and No. That is why NFP is not be used willy nilly. NFP is to be used only in extreme cases. That is Catholic teaching. If the mother is gravely ill then yes. But once she is well again this is to stop.

Another thing with the NFP is that it does not completely stop the Hand of God.

If you abstains from sex during the fertile times, God can still bring forth a child even during the infertile times. That is why Protestants don’t use NFP because they know that they cannot totally control this.

Furthermore, with NFP both couples are making a sacrifice during the fertile times when they abstain. Something ABC proponents don’t want to do that because they are only after sexual gratification when they want it and however they want it.

I think the fact that God has made the woman infertile at certain times of the month is His way of providing us a way to not have children when for grave reasons we cannot have them.

If He has already given us a means, there is no need to for any other.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

How can I disregard 2000 years of interpretation by the Jewish and Christian Protestant. Because for one I can. God gave me as mind to use and I see it as it is written. God killed Onan because he disobeyed the command to give his brother a child, not because he spilled his seed. See tradition has a way of getting mixed up. It can be added to and embilished. Its like you telling someone something and by time it gets around to you it has totally changed from the original wording and in 2000 years things can really be emblished and added to. 2000 years is a long time for something to stay in its original wording. So I don’t put too much into tradition. You say Jews don’t believe Christ is the savior and its clear from Scripture that he is. If they can be wrong about that they can be wrong about Onan. Catholics claim that the Pope in infallible when it comes to thing of morals and spiritual things. I find that hard to believe since all men are fallible. To me if someone wants their possition on certain things believed all they say is it was inspired by the HS so therefore people will believe them. How do you know for a fact that is true. Some say Mary stayed a virgin after Jesus was born but Scripture says she remained a virgin until her first child, a son, was born. There is even mention of Jesus’ brothers and sisters but people want to believe they were cousins. Now I’m not claiming to be a authority on everything but I see it how it is written and not how someone or some religion wants me to see it.

Thanks for the reply Rev Kev
Yes the Jews didn’t believe Christ was the messiah and so they could have gotten other things wrong. However, Christ was himself a Jew and if Jewish tradition was against contraception, then Christ would have known that contraception was immoral and would’ve understood the Onan passage as condemning contraception.

I think you have to give some kind of weight to tradition because there are several things that come from tradition like the canon of the bible, the trinity, hypostatic union, etc.

My worry about completely disregarding tradition is that there can be people 60-70 years from now who are Christians but believe some things that are contrary to what you yourself believe to be tenets of the Christian faith. For example, what if gay marriage becomes legal in the U.S. within 5 years from now and within 20 years all western countries allow gay marriage. There are people now (Christian and non-Christian) who will argue that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn’t a condemnation of homosexuality. The sin of those people was that they were inhospitable and didn’t treat their guests fairly. I’ve heard it argued that places in the OT that condemn homosexuality were thrown away with the old law and they mean nothing for Christians. I’ve heard it argued that places in the New Testament that condemn homosexuality (Romans, Timothy, Corinthians) have all been mistranslated due to the meaning of the Greek word “malakos” which supposedly originally referred to masturbation and not homosexuality. Now I’m sure that you probably won’t agree with all of these possible views I’ve expressed, but how will people 50 or 60 years from now choose to interpret these passages if they were raised in a society that is totally accepting of homosexual lifestyle? If people several generations from now don’t give any adherence to tradition then they can interpret passages in the bible contrary to tradition in order to conform their version of Christianity to the social environment they were raised in.

 

[benedictus2]

I never denied that children are gifts from God.

Not just gifts, blessings!

Both Psalms have to do with children that are allready born. We should treat the well, love them. It has nothing to do with contraception.

Nope, it means children period. It means those that God has given and will give.

Exodus has to do with Idol worship warning against it.

Nope. It is a blessing and one of the blessings go: no woman in your land will be barren or miscarry

Deuteronomy is not talking about individuals but a nation.

He will bless the fruit of your womb… You will be blessed above all peoples; no man or woman among you shall be childless…”**
It seems you don’t know how to read. Or maybe just a case of not wanting to read and understand.

I have 5 children that God blessed me with. 3 are grown and on their own and 2 are still at home. I have been a father since I was 16 years old and I am not 49. My youngest is 10. I have fulfilled my obligation and brought children into this world.

So children is an obligation more than a blessing?

You make children sound like a burden.

God does not see it that way. They are a blessing.

**If you think they are God’s blessing, why are you stopping Him from continuing **to bless you?

Is it not up to Him to decide when He will stop blessing you with children?

The Natural Law of God says sex means children when He sees fit.
**
You are thwarting His law.**

It is similar to proponent of Euthanasia. God says I will decide when man will die. They say no that’s up to us to decide when man will die.

Maybe not 12 or 20 but 5. I have raised 3 on my own and I have a wife to help with the last 2. If I would have refused God’s blessings I would not have raised them by my self.

But why are you refusing His** furthe**r blessings by contracepting?

Don’t you trust Him enough to give you the necessary grace to care for however many children He decides to bless you with?

If He decided to give you 10 then He will provide for the 10 because they are His children that He is only asking you to look after.

Some couples want 10 but only have one. This is all about letting God decide and letting God be the Lord and Master of your life.

When you contacept, you are knocking God off that that throne which rightly belongs to Him and sitting yourself on it.

You are in effect saying that Rev Kevin is the Lord God so He will decide how many children He will have.

I come from a family of 10. I am the eighth. We were extremely poor (not even enough food sometimes) and yet because my parents trusted, they were able to send all their children to University and all are now gainfully employed, contributing to society and some have children of their own.

This is about allowing God to be the Lord and Master of your life.

Obviously to you, He is not.

When you practice NFP you are not wanting to have a child so infact you are also stopping God from blessing you.

Oh no. Because as I said before, you are only to use this in grave circumstances.

Not wanting to have children just because you do not want to have children is not a grave reason.

When the woman is the most fertil you don’t have sex with her because that would more then likely produce a child so you are infact denying God’s blessing.

Nope, because God can still bring forth a child during the infertile months because there are no barriers. And this has happened.

In your case, God will have to practically create a miracle to bring forth a child since you have barred him with your condom, prevented him altogether with your tubal ligiation and vasectomy. These last two is heinous because you are willing to mutilate yourself even so as to stop prevent Him from doing His Will.

So there is no comparison at all.

So don’t give me that goody goody two shows junk. The intent of NFP is NOT to have a child.

Oh yes I can most certainly give you that good advice which is very far from junk.

**As I said before, if you say that the NFP is a proper means of contraception, then how come you are not practicing NFP?

So answer that one!**

 

[larkin31]

Hey Larkin,

I know you answered this already and I’m sorry for never responding to it. I was looking for an answer from someone who holds to the Christian faith and how a Christian reconciles the tradition of these passages being interpreted one way with a different interpretation. I see what you’re getting at with your response, but i don’t think your answer is one that a Christian would necessarily hold because it calls other things into question like homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, etc. and not just birth control.

Thanks, CH. I know that you were asking someone of faith. But there are answers to your question from very well-known cultural historians (I did not come up with this answer myself).

But, additionally, how can you, with any intellectual maturity and sophistication, include “bestiality” in a list with these other adult human consensual acts? I consider this nothing but a smear tactic.

 

[rev_kevin]

Sorry but it is so not debunked.

When did God say that the command no longer applies?

**Where in the Bible did God say that now that there are already a lot of people, you must stop bringing forth chidlren?

Where in the Bible did God change His Command?**

On the contrary, this command He re-inforces in the psalms and other texts of the Bible by reiterating that children is how He blesses us.

So think again.

Show me where God said to stop. Show me where God changed His command.

Until the God says it is no longer to be done, then the command is in force.

God gave us the Ten Commandments then and that is still in force now no matter what relativists think.
And I am a better person than that. You just did not know how to read my post.

What I did was take your reasoning with regards “go forth and multiply” and showing you for the faulty and erroneous reasoning that it is by applying it to Jesus’s command to love.

There are two ways of giving a command: the positive way DO and the negative way DON’T.

The DO means that you are to refrain from doing it’s opposite.

When God said Love, He means you are not supposed to do it’s opposite which is to hate.

When God said “go forth and multiply”, He meant that you are not supposed to do the opposite by thwarting His will to created new people.

Very, very simple. Very, very logical

Nope, as i have shown above. Not comparing apples and oranges.

You’ve been hard pressed from the beginning to defend your position because your position is indefensible.

Now I’ve shown you how illogical and irrational your position is.

Well, yes there is a difference between those two but that is not what I was saying.

The difference I am highlighting was not between love and like but between love and hate. They are opposites.

So is “going forth and multiplying” and “contracepting” they are opposites.

Once God had given the positive command “multiply” that means He is forbidding the opposite “contracept”

Once God has given the positive command “love”, He is forbidding the opposite " hate".

You know very well that is what it means, It was ment to 1. poulate the earth and 2. to repopulate the earth. It says it clearly. I have given you Scripture in black and white. God said to populate the earth and to repopulate the earth. How much clearer can it get.
You can have children but no longer do we need to populate or repopulate.
Of course children is one way God blesses us but if you have a child or 2 you are blessed for the rest of your life. It don’t take 20 children to be a blessing.

I asked you to show me and all you do is answer a question with a question. Can you please answer the question.

The earth is already populated, now we need to maintain it. But this don’t mean by having 20 Childred.

God gave is the 10 commandments to define what is acceptable and not acceptable to Him. They also define consequences for obedience and disobedience. And they will not change. Its written in stone.

Ok love is the opposite of hate but the way you put it seemed like you were saying that I am saying its ok to hate which it is not. But when God said go and multiply did he say how many chilren you should have? NO. If a couple brings one child into this world they did multiply, the multiplied by one.

Sorry but you haven’t. You think you have but really you haven’t. I have given you ample examples, showed you Scripture, asked you to read what it says. So go on and believe what you are told.

No no when he gave the command to them to go and multiply it was to populate the earth and its as clear as the nose on your face that is what he said. “and populate the earth.”
He told Noah and his sons to go and multiply to repopulate the earth. once again its plain as the nose on your face

You never answered this question. How many children do you have?

 

[rev_kevin]

Thanks for the reply Rev Kev
Yes the Jews didn’t believe Christ was the messiah and so they could have gotten other things wrong. However, Christ was himself a Jew and if Jewish tradition was against contraception, then Christ would have known that contraception was immoral and would’ve understood the Onan passage as condemning contraception.

I think you have to give some kind of weight to tradition because there are several things that come from tradition like the canon of the bible, the trinity, hypostatic union, etc.

My worry about completely disregarding tradition is that there can be people 60-70 years from now who are Christians but believe some things that are contrary to what you yourself believe to be tenets of the Christian faith. For example, what if gay marriage becomes legal in the U.S. within 5 years from now and within 20 years all western countries allow gay marriage. There are people now (Christian and non-Christian) who will argue that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn’t a condemnation of homosexuality. The sin of those people was that they were inhospitable and didn’t treat their guests fairly. I’ve heard it argued that places in the OT that condemn homosexuality were thrown away with the old law and they mean nothing for Christians. I’ve heard it argued that places in the New Testament that condemn homosexuality (Romans, Timothy, Corinthians) have all been mistranslated due to the meaning of the Greek word “malakos” which supposedly originally referred to masturbation and not homosexuality. Now I’m sure that you probably won’t agree with all of these possible views I’ve expressed, but how will people 50 or 60 years from now choose to interpret these passages if they were raised in a society that is totally accepting of homosexual lifestyle? If people several generations from now don’t give any adherence to tradition then they can interpret passages in the bible contrary to tradition in order to conform their version of Christianity to the social environment they were raised in.

I said I don’t put too much into tradition, I neve said I totally disreguard tradition.

 

[rev_kevin]

Not just gifts, blessings!
Nope, it means children period. It means those that God has given and will give.

Nope. It is a blessing and one of the blessings go: no woman in your land will be barren or miscarry

He will bless the fruit of your womb… You will be blessed above all peoples; no man or woman among you shall be childless…”
It seems you don’t know how to read. Or maybe just a case of not wanting to read and understand.

So children is an obligation more than a blessing?No my children are a blessing a blessing that you are obligated to love and care for. I guess you failed to read where I said that God has BLESSED me with 5 children

You make children sound like a burden.No my children are never a burden to me, You seem to take things out of context. I’m 49 years with 5 children, I don’t want more, I can’t healthwise handle more, I can’t financially handle more. I fullfilled my obligation to God.

God does not see it that way. They are a blessing.

**If you think they are God’s blessing, why are you stopping Him from continuing **to bless you?So a person in their 80’s should still strive to have children. According to you we should never stop until we die

**Is it not up to Him to decide when He will stop blessing you with children?**May be God said I have given you enough children. You don’t know he didn’t.

The Natural Law of God says sex means children when He sees fit. COLOR=“red”]It does?
**
You are thwarting His law.**Thats your opinion. How do you know God don’t want me to have anymore children. Are you God?

It is similar to proponent of Euthanasia. God says I will decide when man will die. They say no that’s up to us to decide when man will die.

I hope you are not saying I’m a proponent of Euthanasia?

But why are you refusing His** furthe**r blessings by contracepting? See above.

Don’t you trust Him enough to give you the necessary grace to care for however many children He decides to bless you with?How do you know he hasn’t given me however many children he wanted to already?

If He decided to give you 10 then He will provide for the 10 because they are His children that He is only asking you to look after.Then explain why there are so many starving children in this world if God will provide for them?

Some couples want 10 but only have one. This is all about letting God decide and letting God be the Lord and Master of your life.See you just confirmed my point. God gave me all he wanted to give me.

When you contacept, you are knocking God off that that throne which rightly belongs to Him and sitting yourself on it.Are you kidding me with this statement.

You are in effect saying that Rev Kevin is the Lord God so He will decide how many children He will have.There you go again putting words in my mouth.

I come from a family of 10. I am the eighth. We were extremely poor (not even enough food sometimes) and yet because my parents trusted, they were able to send all their children to University and all are now gainfully employed, contributing to society and some have children of their own.I applaud them

This is about allowing God to be the Lord and Master of your life.

Obviously to you, He is not.You are really starting to get on my last nerve with your assumptions of me.

Oh no. Because as I said before, you are only to use this in grave circumstances.

Not wanting to have children just because you do not want to have children is not a grave reason.The want to do what God commanded them and that was to be fruitful and mulitply. If you deny them you are playing God.

Nope, because God can still bring forth a child during the infertile months because there are no barriers. And this has happened.And women have become pregnant while using or on contraception

In your case, God will have to practically create a miracle to bring forth a child since you have barred him with your condom, prevented him altogether with your tubal ligiation and vasectomy. These last two is heinous because you are willing to mutilate yourself even so as to stop prevent Him from doing His Will.There you go assuming. I never said I use a condom, I never said my wife had tubal ligiation and I never said I had a vasectomy. You just shown how much you know about me with your false accusations. You are really reaching my very last nerve.

So there is no comparison at all.
Oh yes I can most certainly give you that good advice which is very far from junk.

**As I said before, if you say that the NFP is a proper means of contraception, then how come you are not practicing NFP?Already answered. You are getting personal with some of your comments about me when you don’t know what you are talking about. **

So answer that one!

 

[rev_kevin]

God bless you and your beautiful family!

Thank you mark.

 

[benedictus2]

However, Christ was himself a Jew and if Jewish tradition was against contraception, then Christ would have known that contraception was immoral and would’ve understood the Onan passage as condemning contraception.

**I think that says it all with regards Jesus will on the matter.

Rev Kevin, pay attention to this.**

 

[adrift]

He wrote that it “could” be. Which is correct. And yes, for some folks the drive to have children is selfish: it pleases THEM, and they seek that pleasure, and even once they have had kids, their own pleasure and happiness remains tantamount. Do you deny this? Why try to shame someone who sees that some people are very selfish parents?

He denied flatly what you are claiming he said. I said to him that if he thought having children was selfish it would be a pity, It is so for you as well. Do I deny It? What I deny is your broad brush. I wasn’t trying to shame anyone. I find your statments odd and strange not routed in reality.

 

[benedictus2]

I said I don’t put too much into tradition, I neve said I totally disreguard tradition.

So you are disregarding the Tradition that Jesus Christ HImself followed.

This is how Jesus would have understood it. So that means you are going against Jesus’ understanding.

 

[adrift]

What grave dangers of the womans health are you talking about.
There are a lot of medication that cause grave dangers to anyone’s health, do you not take them or would you not take them?
If a woman has her tubes tied what grave dangers are there from that.
NFP is used for the same reason so don’t give me that load of stuff. YOU practice NFP so you won’t have a child plain and simple. YOU DON"T WANT A CHILD!.

You cannot read the hearts of anyone. You are very judgmental. My spouse and I were told that after our baby was still born that we should wait for the body to become strong enough to carry another child. Do you realize how your rant is so hollow. There are those who have been told by doctors that they should not try another pregnancy because of various reasons. Their heart broke because they wanted other children. You in your judgment know their hearts? I am sorry for you. I hope prayer will soften your heart.

 

[benedictus2]

You know very well that is what it means, It was ment to 1. poulate the earth and 2. to repopulate the earth. It says it clearly. I have given you Scripture in black and white. God said to populate the earth and to repopulate the
earth. How much clearer can it get.

God’s command does not change until He says so.

So again, where in the Bible did He change the command?

You can have children but no longer do we need to populate or repopulate.

Where in the Bible did God change the command?

Of course children is one way God blesses us but if you have a child or 2 you are blessed for the rest of your life. It don’t take 20 children to be a blessing.

But who decides whether it is a blessing or not? No you. God decides whether he He will bless you or not. You do not say to God: No I do not want your blessing and then do everything in your power to thwart his will.

You let God be God. A priest once wrote that sin means refusing to let God be God. Contraception is that : refusing to let God be God.
**
** God is the one who decides whether you will have 2 or 20, NOT YOU.

When you decide, that means you are usurping God’s throne.

I asked you to show me and all you do is answer a question with a question. Can you please answer the question.

There is no question. The plain and simple fact is God said to populate the earth and only He has a right to say when there are enough people. When He decides that there are already enough, then He will stop giving us children Himself.

We do not decide whether there are already too much. Your way is idolatr y. I/Me/Myself will decide. That is the way of the world not God’s way.

The earth is already populated, now we need to maintain it. But this don’t mean by having 20 Childred.

Who says? You? That is not for you to decide. Only God decides that. Our role, is plain and simple.: to follow His command. How many people there should be on this earth is up to Him.

**When you keep copulating and no more children ensue, then that is a sure sign that God has said that is enough. Until then, you have no right to decide who will and will not be born. ** Only God. Anything else is the height of pride. Anything else means Jesus is not really Lord even though you like to claim so.

God gave is the 10 commandments to define what is acceptable and not acceptable to Him. They also define consequences for obedience and disobedience. And they will not change. Its written in stone.

So because go forth and multiply is not written in stone we can change that? Well then how about the command to love your neighbour? That one is not written in stone either, does that mean we can change that one too?

Ok love is the opposite of hate but the way you put it seemed like you were saying that I am saying its ok to hate which it is not.

What I showed you was that your argument against “go forth and multiply” is similar to saying it’s okay to hate because God did not forbid us from hating since all he said was love your neighbour.

But when God said go and multiply did he say how many chilren you should have? NO.

**Exactly! Yes, yes, yes. :extrahappy::extrahappy:**He did not say how many children you should have because He Himself will decide that for you. When He stops giving you children, that is when He tells you that that is how many children you should have.

Finally, you get it.:extrahappy:

You never answered this question. How many children do you have?

None. I was going to be married but the engagement was called off because at the last minute I thought that if I got married I would be saying No to God. So I entered a convent and discerned whether He wanted me to be a nun. But that was not for me either. Now I just work and dedicate myself to the Lord and I tell HIm I am His and to use me however He pleases.

But I value a big family because I came from one. As I said earlier I came from a family of 10 and I am the eight. When my mother and father got married, by the world’s standard, they should only have had one child since that was the most they would have been able to afford. They were very poor and my mother and father would go to Mass everyday just praying and trusting in God.

As I said before, God will not be outdone in generosity. If they had contracepted and went by the reasons of the world, there would only be my eldest sister. And yet here we all are. My brothers and sisters are so very generous in their care for the poor that they give even when they sometimes don’t have any themselves.

My younger sister educates young chidrren about Christ.

While some children would thank their parents for the material things that their parents provided, the one thing that I treasure most is my Catholic Faith. I am overwhelmed with gratitude to God for my mother’s steadfast faith that she passed on to us. Nothing could compare to this gift.

 

[benedictus2]

What grave dangers of the womans health are you talking about.
There are a lot of medication that cause grave dangers to anyone’s health, do you not take them or would you not take them?

Definitely not. If anyone thought Thalidomide would cause what it would cause would anyone have taken them?

But the analogy is not the same. We take medication to cure an illness not to become even more ill.

If a woman has her tubes tied what grave dangers are there from that.

You are so completely not making any sense. I am not saying that tubal ligation is a grave danger. I am saying that tubal ligation and vasectomy are the worst because apart from saying no to God by not letting Him be God, you are doing that to the extent of even mutilating yourself to do so.

NFP is used for the same reason so don’t give me that load of stuff. YOU practice NFP so you won’t have a child plain and simple. YOU DON"T WANT A CHILD!

Rubbish. Some may practice NFP for that reason but that is not the same as ABC and that is not the reason that the Church prescribes it for.

No one is told to practice NFP as a run of the mill contraception.

I asked you before, how come you are not practicing NFP if it is the same as ABC?

If its the same then it would be my and my spouses choice on what method to use.

Ha! Exactly! Exactly! Exactly! :extrahappy::extrahappy: So therefore it is not the same and you acknowledge that! Slum dunk!

NOW, NOW here you go, I don’t trust God now. It’s just lip service. You have no idea how much I trust God. I trusted him every time I went into a buring structure that he would bring me and my fellow firefighters out alive.

Well then how come you do not trust Him enough to decide how many children He wants to give you? Please answer that.

With your explanation, you have in effect said that having children is worse than going into a burning building. So much for saying that children are a blessing.

DO NOT EVER PUT TO QUESTION MY TRUST IN GOD UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR A FACT!

I know for a fact** because you supplied the fact by saying that you practice artificial birth control.** That is a sign that you do not trust God enough. You do not trust Him enough on that aspect of your life.

You are really pushing and grabbing for straws if you have to result to this kind of tactics.

No, I am pushing you into the light so you cannot hide behind your rationalizations as hard as you may try.

I for one have never questioned you on your trust in God why because I’m a better person than that.

Questioning someone’s trust in God does not mean one is a bad person. There is a reason why I questioned it and you supplied that reason.

If someone had said the same thing to me, I would have said yes you are right, I do not trust God enough.