Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[Curious_Hobbit]

Thanks, CH. I know that you were asking someone of faith. But there are answers to your question from very well-known cultural historians (I did not come up with this answer myself).

But, additionally, how can you, with any intellectual maturity and sophistication, include “bestiality” in a list with these other adult human consensual acts? I consider this nothing but a smear tactic.

I never meant to imply that all who practice contraception, masturbation, or homosexuals are pretty much just as bad as people who practice bestiality. I listed them together because from the Christian view of sex, they all deviate from the formula of marriage that is one man + one woman = one child. The point I was trying to get at with my response to you was that someone who holds to the Christian faith, and was considering your view of the early Christians having the purity of sex/ purity of spirit dualism- they would have to rethink all other sexual acts and not just the birth control issue.

 

[benedictus2]

No my children are a blessing a blessing that you are obligated to love and care for. I guess you failed to read where I said that God has BLESSED me with 5 children

But isn’t it that if they are blessings then we want more blessings? Nobody wants to limit blessings, only burdens.

.No my children are never a burden to me, You seem to take things out of context. I’m 49 years with 5 children, I don’t want more, I can’t healthwise handle more,

Healthwise well that is a different matter. If your health will not be able to handle it then there is NFP.

I can’t financially handle more. I fullfilled my obligation to God.

Financial concerns are not as good an excuse. God provides. If he gives you more children, He will provide for you. It may be difficult, but not impossible.

It is actually good for children to go wanting for things so long as they have love. It shapes their character and teaches them to value what is important.

So a person in their 80’s should still strive to have children. According to you we should never stop until we die

No, according to me one should let God decide.

A person in her eighties will not have children anymore so that is a ludicrous statement. As for men, well if they are in their eighties, what are they doing cavorting around with women half their age?

May be God said I have given you enough children. You don’t know he didn’t.

But He didn’t or else you will not be practicing ABC.

Thats your opinion. How do you know God don’t want me to have anymore children. Are you God?

Nope. By the simple reason that you are still practicing ABC. Stop practicing ABC and if you don’t have any more children then you know that God has decided not to give you anymore.

When my parents could not have anymore than 10, then for sure, God has said, enough, that will be all I will give you.

I hope you are not saying I’m a proponent of Euthanasia?

I am saying that it goes by the same rational. We human beings decide who will live and who will die.

How do you know he hasn’t given me however many children he wanted to already?

As I said above, becuase you are practicing ABC. If you are so sure that that is all the number of children that He will give you, then you would not need ABC would you.

Then explain why there are so many starving children in this world if God will provide for them?

That is a mystery. Jesus said that the poor will always be with us.

One reason could be so that we can get out of ourselves and look at the others.

When parents artificially control the number of chidlren they have so that they can give them every material good possible, I think that is not a good thing. Look at the kids these days. They are so self-obsessed having been raised in material prosperity that narcicisism is the mode of the day.

Materially pampered chidren grown up spoilt brats.

See you just confirmed my point. God gave me all he wanted to give me.

No I didn’t. I said if He decided to give you ten He will provide for the ten. You said you have 5 and stopped His hand at 5. If you are sure that 5 is all He wants to give you, you will do away with ABC right now. But you are not sure, are you? That is why you continue ABC.

.

Are you kidding me with this statement.

No quite serious. It means you are God of your life not Him.

There you go again putting words in my mouth.

No I am not putting words into your mouth. I am showing you how your practicing translates in terms or allowing God to be God or not.

You are in practice saying that with regards your sexuality, God is not Lord.

.You are really starting to get on my last nerve with your assumptions of me.

It is not an assumption. That is what using ABC means, that God is not the Lord.

.The want to do what God commanded them and that was to be fruitful and mulitply. If you deny them you are playing God.

When you are sick and can’t handle children, you do this by abstaining from sex. But once you are well again, NFP should be dropped.

And women have become pregnant while using or on contraception

Yes, because nothing is impossible to God but that is more like a miracle rather than the norm.

And what is the usual response in these cases? Abortion. If they can’t prevent it with ABC they sure will with abortion.

See how a mindset that is pro contraception easily leads to abortion?

.

There you go assuming. I never said I use a condom, I never said my wife had tubal ligiation and I never said I had a vasectomy. You just shown how much you know about me with your false accusations. You are really reaching my very last nerve.

And if you read what I wrote, I never said you did either. That was a general comment about ABC.

 

[larkin31]

He denied flatly what you are claiming he said. I said to him that if he thought having children was selfish it would be a pity, It is so for you as well. Do I deny It? What I deny is your broad brush. I wasn’t trying to shame anyone. I find your statments odd and strange not routed in reality.

Right back at you.

 

[larkin31]

I never meant to imply that all who practice contraception, masturbation, or homosexuals are pretty much just as bad as people who practice bestiality. I listed them together because from the Christian view of sex, they all deviate from the formula of marriage that is one man + one woman = one child. The point I was trying to get at with my response to you was that someone who holds to the Christian faith, and was considering your view of the early Christians having the purity of sex/ purity of spirit dualism- they would have to rethink all other sexual acts and not just the birth control issue.

ok

Yes, they would. Nothing wrong with examining our value systems, even religious ones. Our understanding of the cosmos, of our world, of our bodies is a whole lot different now. Even Jesus said that it was time for a rethinking of his faith’s values and practices. So much so, that it got him killed.

 

[benedictus2]

ok

Yes, they would. Nothing wrong with examining our value systems, even religious ones. Our understanding of the cosmos, of our world, of our bodies is a whole lot different now. Even Jesus said that it was time for a rethinking of his faith’s values and practices. So much so, that it got him killed.

You are misrepresenting Scripture.

That was not what He said and that is not what got Him killed.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Its simple sex in marriage is ideal and Protestants tend to view most acts as fine within marriage whether they are procreative or not.Masturbation as another outlet can be healthy if done in moderation by single people and those in marriage in the view of more progressive Protestants.

Catholics are unrealistic couples must have the power to control when they have children this is the modern age every child is a blessing but is an economic concern, especially among the poor in third world nations.

You don’t allow contraception and don’t allow alternative means of release with a partner or alone, its cruel and against human nature.

My main defense is Christ didn’t say anothing about this in His ministry and unless He did its a gray area, I would make the case in marriage its fine to control reproduction for economic reasons or for the health of one of the partners (why my father had his Vasectomy when he was a Catholic) to spare my mother who had issues if she carried more children. To expect them not to make love as a loving couple is vicious of anyone to expect.

 

[adrift]

Its simple sex in marriage is ideal and Protestants tend to view most acts as fine within marriage whether they are procreative or not.Masturbation as another outlet can be healthy if done in moderation by single people and those in marriage in the view of more progressive Protestants.

Catholics are unrealistic couples must have the power to control when they have children this is the modern age every child is a blessing but is an economic concern, especially among the poor in third world nations.

You don’t allow contraception and don’t allow alternative means of release with a partner or alone, its cruel and against human nature.

My main defense is Christ didn’t say anothing about this in His ministry and unless He did its a gray area, I would make the case in marriage its fine to control reproduction for economic reasons or for the health of one of the partners (why my father had his Vasectomy when he was a Catholic) to spare my mother who had issues if she carried more children. To expect them not to make love as a loving couple is vicious of anyone to expect.

Do you consider Paul vicious?

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

My main defense is Christ didn’t say anothing about this in His ministry and unless He did its a gray area,

Abortion and euthanasia have economic benefits and Christ didn’t say anything about these issues, are they fine? Did Christ say anything about homosexuality? Did Christ say that God is 3 persons in 1? Christ didn’t say anything about which books should be in the bible, he didn’t even reference all the books of the OT that you probably accept. Did Christ say anything about sola scriptura?

 

[larkin31]

Do you consider Paul vicious?

no, neurotic about sex and gender. he is a rather classic case.

 

[adrift]

no, neurotic about sex and gender. he is a rather classic case.

Trolling again?

 

[larkin31]

Trolling again?

I am very sincere. Why would you accuse me of this? Have you nothing else to say on the subject, rather than on me?

 

[rev_kevin]

You cannot read the hearts of anyone. You are very judgmental. My spouse and I were told that after our baby was still born that we should wait for the body to become strong enough to carry another child. Do you realize how your rant is so hollow. There are those who have been told by doctors that they should not try another pregnancy because of various reasons. Their heart broke because they wanted other children. You in your judgment know their hearts? I am sorry for you. I hope prayer will soften your heart.

What in the world are you talking about? My post has nothing to do with a baby being still born. Sure there are couples that are told the shouldn’t try another pregnancy and I feel for them. If you would bother to read my posts you will see that if a couple can’t have a child the normal ways they can have a child through artifical conctraception. But the CC don’t see it that way. If they can’t have a child period then adoption is a option according to Catholics here of the CAF.

 

[rev_kevin]

God’s command does not change until He says so.

So again, where in the Bible did He change the command?

Where in the Bible did God change the command?

But who decides whether it is a blessing or not? No you. God decides whether he He will bless you or not. You do not say to God: No I do not want your blessing and then do everything in your power to thwart his will.

You let God be God. A priest once wrote that sin means refusing to let God be God. Contraception is that : refusing to let God be God.
**
** God is the one who decides whether you will have 2 or 20, NOT YOU.

When you decide, that means you are usurping God’s throne.
There is no question. The plain and simple fact is God said to populate the earth and only He has a right to say when there are enough people. When He decides that there are already enough, then He will stop giving us children Himself.

We do not decide whether there are already too much. Your way is idolatr y. I/Me/Myself will decide. That is the way of the world not God’s way.

Who says? You? That is not for you to decide. Only God decides that. Our role, is plain and simple.: to follow His command. How many people there should be on this earth is up to Him.

**When you keep copulating and no more children ensue, then that is a sure sign that God has said that is enough. Until then, you have no right to decide who will and will not be born. ** Only God. Anything else is the height of pride. Anything else means Jesus is not really Lord even though you like to claim so.

So because go forth and multiply is not written in stone we can change that? Well then how about the command to love your neighbour? That one is not written in stone either, does that mean we can change that one too?
What I showed you was that your argument against “go forth and multiply” is similar to saying it’s okay to hate because God did not forbid us from hating since all he said was love your neighbour.
Exactly! Yes, yes, yes. :extrahappy::extrahappy:He did not say how many children you should have because He Himself will decide that for you. When He stops giving you children, that is when He tells you that that is how many children you should have.

Finally, you get it.:extrahappy:

None. I was going to be married but the engagement was called off because at the last minute I thought that if I got married I would be saying No to God. So I entered a convent and discerned whether He wanted me to be a nun. But that was not for me either. Now I just work and dedicate myself to the Lord and I tell HIm I am His and to use me however He pleases.

But I value a big family because I came from one. As I said earlier I came from a family of 10 and I am the eight. When my mother and father got married, by the world’s standard, they should only have had one child since that was the most they would have been able to afford. They were very poor and my mother and father would go to Mass everyday just praying and trusting in God.

As I said before, God will not be outdone in generosity. If they had contracepted and went by the reasons of the world, there would only be my eldest sister. And yet here we all are. My brothers and sisters are so very generous in their care for the poor that they give even when they sometimes don’t have any themselves.

My younger sister educates young chidrren about Christ.

While some children would thank their parents for the material things that their parents provided, the one thing that I treasure most is my Catholic Faith. I am overwhelmed with gratitude to God for my mother’s steadfast faith that she passed on to us. Nothing could compare to this gift.

Oh I see now. You critize those who have had children and decided not to have more but you yourself are denying yourself the gift and blessings of God by not having any children because you refuse to be married and therefore you are not helping in multiplying the earth as commanded by God. Is it God’s plan for you not to have children? If so then how in the world can you sit there and say that its not God’s plan for me or anyone with 2 or 5 children wasn’t God’s plan for us? You decided not to have children but if a couple alread has children and don’t want more you say their wrong. Once again how do you know that its not God’s plan for couples not to have more children? You don’t know what God wants from every single couple. You don’t know that if they have 2 children that that is all he wanted them to have. You don’t know that God don’t want them to use contraception so they don’t have more children but he wants them to enjoy and love eachother through sexual relations. If God wants them to have children then nothing will stand in his way and I mean nothing. Remember nothing is impossible with God. You say my was is idolatry but you can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that its not God plan for me or for anyother couple not to have more children. Sure how many people on this earth is up to him and how do you know he hasn’t already. Do you have a direct line to God that he will tell you what he is going to do. I have no right to say who and who will not be born, you have decided that you will not have children therefore you have decided who will and who will not be born. I can’t believe you have the gull to sit there and critize people because they don’t have 10, 20, 30 children when you don’t even have one.

 

[rev_kevin]

So you are disregarding the Tradition that Jesus Christ HImself followed.

This is how Jesus would have understood it. So that means you are going against Jesus’ understanding.

I said “I don’t put too much into tradition.” But you said “I don’t trust God enough.”

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

I said “I don’t put too much into tradition.” But you said “I don’t trust God enough.”

Do you have a method by which you discern what tradition should stay and what should go?

Also, I still don’t see how you can get around the fact that Jesus was a Jew and Jews have always understood Onan being killed for spilling seed and that passage being a condemnation of birth control.

 

[larkin31]

…Also, I still don’t see how you can get around the fact that Jesus was a Jew and Jews have always understood Onan being killed for spilling seed and that passage being a condemnation of birth control.

You need to read more about the history of Jewish teachings on birth control and the morality of sex without reproductive potential. The Jewish tradition is more flexible AND more complicated than how you have put it here. And presently today, as is true of Christianity today (and ACTUAL practice among Catholics today), the response to modern sexual morality over birth control is quite varied.

 

[larkin31]

Do you have a method by which you discern what tradition should stay and what should go?

For me, it is my conscience. Some religious ideas are wise AND just. Many of them, in fact.

 

[mark_a]

You need to read more about the history of Jewish teachings on birth control and the morality of sex without reproductive potential.

Can you give us a good link?

 

[larkin31]

Can you give us a good link?

try a simple google search for Jewish birth control history

I read three Jewish links and wiki before I responded, but you can read more or fewer as you please

 

[kingal86]

Second, NFP is a form of birth control. While it doesn’t use a barrier it’s not open to life either.

That’s always bugged me as well actually: why latex barriers or pills preventing ovulation are sinful, but attempting to determine which days a women is not fertile is not sinful. I guess the Catholic counter-argument is there is still a chance of pregnancy, but then there’s a 1-3% chance of pregnancy when the Pill or condoms are used as well.

I also do not really understand the insistence that the creative act is always completed inside the woman (believe it or not, a few men find that can be difficult from time to time - although I guess the opposite problem is more common).