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Calliso
Guest
Yes but I still donlt think that means he micromanages our lives.
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mark_a
Guest
Ok. But if, for whatever reason, even just for refutation, you are interested in the Catholic teaching these links do a good job with a nutshell version.
On contraception: rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html
Where Protestantism abondoned 1900 years of Christian teaching:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f
Best wishes.
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adrift
Guest
The doctor felt we should wait a little before attempting another preganancy.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
6 I say this by way of concession, not of command. 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. 8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion. (1Corinthians (RSV) 7)
Will you accept St. Paul’s teaching? It is obvious that Benedictus2 has. Your retort is an Ad Hominem abuse. St. Paul taught the Church plenty the way a family should respond to each other, without having one of his own. In fact according to 1 Cor. 7, he encouraged celibacy over marriage, something protestants have chosen to ignore.
It is obvious that you are not going to accept this or any other teaching of Christ to His Church because it does not align with your own will, this is truth Kevin.
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benedictus2
Guest
So you are saying St Paul should not preach about fidelity to spouse and sexual practices just because he was not married.
Reality check. What I am preaching is not my own teaching but God’s. You are saying that God cannot teach you about having children.
As I said before, idolatry of the self. Plain and simple.
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benedictus2
Guest
Surely you are not really that dense. Who ever makes a decision not to get married just so to avoid children?
You are so losing it that is why you are coming with this conclusions.Nope. It was God’s decision not to give me a husband. If he wanted me to have children He would have given me a husband since I was about to get married But His word came that I was meant only for Himself. Yes, He does choose people for that purpose. Just like St Paul.
You remember your argument from way back when you said that St Paul said that if you cannot help yourself then you should get married? You are therefore saying that you only got married because you can’t help yourself, that if you do not get married you will fall into sin.
Well helllooo, how then was I supposed to have the chldren that you think would qualify me to speak about being open to God if I were not to do that.
You are sounding more illogical as each post passes.
Oh no, I don’t blame Him for my decision since it was my choice to follow His will.
When I was about to get married, I was at prayer and was praying that I will be able to do His will and that I will love this man through all the bad times as well as the good. And as I prayed He came to me in vision and said: “But Cory, I have reserved you for Myself”. Now some people will think I was hallucinating and just imagining thing but that spiritual experience is as clear to me today as the night it happened. That is why I thought He might be calling me to the religious life. Or maybe He was telling me that this guy was all wrong for me. But since no other guy came along, then I supposed that that was His way of confirming that experience.
Most guys find me too religious so can’t handle it.
Yes, and you are refusing further blessings. As I said before, if you are so sure that that is all the number of children that God wanted for you, you would not have resorted to contraception.
This all boils down to who is the God of your life? You or Him. Contraception says that the person is god.
A family may not be His way of blessing me but He has blessed me enough that I may be able to help others. Not having chidren of my own, I am able to help those who do. And I have been and continue to blessed indeed.
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benedictus2
Guest
Like I said, just because one is not married does not disqualify one from preaching God’s word as regards children.
It is all over the Bible.
Otherwise, you are saying that Paul is not qualified to preach about marital fidelity and the married state because he was not married.
God’s word stands on its own. That you persist in interpreting it the way it suits you means that you have decided that you will be the arbiter of what is good and what is evil not God. So we keep ending up in idolatry of the self.
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benedictus2
Guest
Oh yes He does if we let Him. He is intimately involved in the creation of each human being.
And it is not about breaking through latex. God can do that.
The issue here is about denial of God’s authority over you, over your procreative faculties.
That is what this is all about. Either God has sole authority over your body and its procreative abilities or you declare that you are god and so have the authority over your body.
Anyone who practice ABC and claims that Jesus Christ is Lord lies every time they have sex. Obviously, Jesus Christ is not Lord.
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Curious_Hobbit
Guest
The reason why I dismiss the other traditions in one sentence is because I’m aware that Jewish teaching is not identical to Christian teaching on this. I brought up the Jews because an earlier poster (not you or rev kev) said that they would look to how the Jews understand Onan in the original Hebrew and not protestant reformers from the 16th century A.D. onward. Despite all of the exceptions to birth control for the Jews, they all recognize that Onan was killed for wasting his seed on the ground. The different denominations of Judaism will emphasize various principles that allow certain types of birth control or in certain situations. Some Jewish sects only prohibit condoms and the withdrawal because that is specifically wasting seed. Many of them are fine with the pill because it’s not seen as wasting seed. Some Jews go further and prohibit vasectomies and other things, but they all acknowledge that Onan was killed for wasting his seed on the ground, not for avoiding levirate obligations. All Christians who don’t see birth control as immoral say that Onan was not killed for spilling his seed, but this view doesn’t match up with thousands of years of interpretation.
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Curious_Hobbit
Guest
When thinking about this issue I use my brain. Here are some things that my brain has a hard time reconciling your point of view with:
All interpretation of Genesis prior to 1930 AD has concluded that Onan was killed for wasting his seed on the ground.
Deuteronomy 25 says that public humiliation is the punishment for avoiding levirate marriages, not death
Onan’s brother Shelah also avoided levirate marriage with Tamar and he was not killed like Onan.
The hebrew word used to describe Onan’s “wasting/ spilling seed” is “shacath”. This word means to corrupt, destroy, devistate, etc. There are several places in the OT that speak of emission of seed and this is the only passage that uses the word “shacath”. The word “shacath” is even used as a synonym for kill, destroy in other places in the bible like Gen. 6:17, 9:15 and Judges 20:21.
These are just a few things that cause cognitive dissonance in my brain (when I use my brain) when trying to accept your position.
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Calliso
Guest
Eh while I am sure God could chose to micromanage our lives I am still not convince that he normally does. Sure I could for instance see him purposely at times interfering for instance with an infertile couple and making them get pregnant. But in general I think an infertile couple doesn;t get pregnant because they are infertile. Not because God is deliberately withholding children from them. Now I think God can and does sometimes gives us “signs” that basically point us in the direction he wants us to go in our lives. I think for instance he wanted me to get married. I wasn;t even looking to get married and then met and fell in love with my current husband. He wasn;t looking to get married either. Of course I accept that this might not have had to do anything with God and could have been chance, I tend to believe God was involved somehow though. Anyway I never thought I was God when I used abc I knew he could get around it if he so chose or just plain badluck and chance could happen and I got pregnant. Of course isn;t using nfp and deliberately making sure you only have sex during the most infertile times kinda the same thing? I mean isn;t a person basicaly trying to withhold their fertility and all from Gods control then too?
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larkin31
Guest
But you are not accurate in your generalizations, and not all Jews teach what you say. And not “all Christians” who say what you write believe what you write of them.
Your point is, apparently, that original interpretations are the only legitimate interpretations. I, certainly, differ with you in that regard. Significant numbers of Jews and Christians share my view that original interpretations are not the only valid interpretations. But, as we already know, I have tended to be much more ecumenical about issues of sexual morality and sexual practices.
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rev_kevin
Guest
According to Deuteronomy 25 If the brother-in-law does not want to marry his sister-in law then he will suffer public humiliation.
According to Genesis 38:8 “Judah said unto O’-nan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her and raise up seed to thy brother.” Now according to this passage O’-nan married Ta’-mar. Now the law in Deuteronomy 25 says if the man DOES NOT want to MARRY his sister-in-law, then the sister-in-law shall go to the elders at the city gate, and say, 'My brother-in-law REFUSES to carry on his brother’s name in Israel; he will not do the duty of a brother-in-law to me; whereupon the elders of his city shall summon him, and speak to him, and if he maintains his position, and says, I DO NOT want to MARRY her, his sister-in-law shall lgo up to him and pull his samkdes off his feet, and spit in his face and solemnly declare, so shall it be called in Israel the house for which the sandal was pulled off."
Now lets look at Genesis 38:9 “But O’nan, knowing that the family would not be his, wasted his semen on the ground WHENEVER he had intercourse with his brother’s widow, so as not to give his brother a family. What he did was so displeasing to the Lord that he killed him too.”
Ok with all that said, according to Genesis 38: 8 Judah said to O’nan to marry Ta’mar. It is assumed he did because Ta’mar did not go to the elders of the city and tell them he would not marry her. So its safe to say O’nan married Ta’mar.
Levirate law says, If he REFUSES TO MARRY HER or if the man like not to take his brothers wife (KJV) she shall publically humiliate him.
O’nan was not publically humiliated because he married Ta’mar so this law would not apply to O’nan. Its only if he REFUSED TO MARRY HER.
So if this law does not apply to O’nan his punishment for not giving his brother a child could be death.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Ok I stand to be corrected, thank you. Paul does say it is better to remain unmarried. I will appologize to benedictus 2.
Now it is also written by Paul a few verses before your verses this, " The husband should not deprive his wife of sexual intimacy, which is her right as a married woman, nor should the wife deprive her husband…do not deprive each other of sexual relations."
No where does it say to have children in these verses. It does not say not to use contraception when you have sexual intimacy with your spouse. And in the same way it don’t say too use contraception. So that would be up to the married couple to use or not to use.
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rev_kevin
Guest
Benedictus 2
You have my sincer appology for the comment I said about you not being married and not having children. Irish_Polock reminded me of what Paul said.
Once again I’m sorry. :imsorry:
You have my sincer appology for the comment I said about you not being married and not having children. Irish_Polock reminded me of what Paul said.
Once again I’m sorry. :imsorry:
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mark_a
Guest
This statement illustrates the difference between current typical Protestant teaching (or non-teaching, really) and Catholic teaching about marriage.
Could be. I don’t know how much of this thread you’ve read, but Catholic use of nfp for selfish reason is sinful.
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mark_a
Guest
Hello!?!?!? Anyone out there?
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1234
Guest
Leave it, Mark.
You’re beating a dead horse.
You’re beating a dead horse.
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stormy99
Guest
**Abort teenagers? I think sending them to Alaska til they turn 21 would do the trick…
stormy**
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1234
Guest
One of the advantages of raising dogs is that you can sell them or give them away…
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