Protestants DENY Tradition?

[KjetilK]

You were attempting to use the fact that Anglican and Lutherans having married priests as evidence of not following tradition.

My remark is that Eastern Rite Catholics have married priests.

But haven’t you been taught the Jubilarian version of logic, that definitions only include those you want it to include?

 

[JonNC]

And all that demanding for a definition by another CAF member . Try squeezing your definition into a thread title question.

That would be the purpose of the opening post.
That said, do you accept my definition?

Jon

 

[Jubilarian]

Sigh…

Celibate priests are a discipline not a doctrine from tradition according to your own communion:

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-are-eastern-rite-married-men-allowed-to-be-ordained-priests

You are confused. A tradition of great importance can exist without it being a doctrine. Ordination into the priesthood and celibacy ( the exclusion of marriage) is a tradition. The fact that Eatern Rite Catholics that were already married were granted the ability to become priest does not eliminate the tradition in question.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-a-celibate-priesthood

 

[adf417]

to Chong #175

1st may I respectfully ask you not put your comments within my quote. It makes post #175 look like I am the one saying what you are saying.

There maybe historical events that are carried from one generation to the other orally. Though, the validity of that information is as good as the memory of the transmitter, if personal biases makes the content change then the message loses originality.

very Catholic sir!

1Tim 2:11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

What does this have to do with your comment “though they [sources outside of written scripture] are limited and their reference is of subordinate nature”?

The OT was a preparation of the NT. The NT would have focused ONLY on Jesus and nothing else. But it is expanded to include the 1st apostles of Jesus as the people entrusted with the Good News by Jesus himself.

Now you are drawing a distinction in the completeness of God’s word between what is, the OT, and what will be, the NT, and that the Word of God was not complete until the NT was written. This would mean that the Word of God, all of scripture, (specifically the NT) was not complete until some time after the OT or God purposely did not give the Jews all they needed for salvation.

You said “If the presence of events that are not recorded in Scripture thus authenticates the authority of Traditions, then it would be taking things too far.” Either we did not need the NT and the Traditions that gave it to us went too far or we did need the NT and the Traditions that gave it to us authenticate God’s message. Either way these sources came from “outside of scripture”.

Peace!!!

 

[benjohnson]

You are confused. A tradition of great importance can exist without it being a doctrine. Ordination into the priesthood and celibacy ( the exclusion of marriage) is a tradition. The fact that Eatern Rite Catholics that were already married were granted the ability to become priest does not eliminate the tradition in question.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-a-celibate-priesthood

Indeed I am often confused. But I do have the ability to read. From your own link:

"The discipline was lived out in different ways, depending on where you were in the Church. "

and another

“Partly, celibacy is retained because of the native tendency not to change disciplines without a really good reason.”

Bolded for clarity.

Priestly celibacy isn’t Tradition - it’s a custom and discipline of your communion at this time in history. Nothing wrong with it and it’s probably beneficial, but for those churches that don’t practice it, it’s not an indication of abandoning tradition unless you logically count your own churches.

 

[JonNC]

You are confused. A tradition of great importance can exist without it being a doctrine. Ordination into the priesthood and celibacy ( the exclusion of marriage) is a tradition. The fact that Eatern Rite Catholics that were already married were granted the ability to become priest does not eliminate the tradition in question.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-a-celibate-priesthood

You are the first Catholic I’ve heard refer to a sacrament, in this case ordination, as a tradition.
It seems to me that a sacrament would be doctrine, but I could be wrong.

Jon

 

[clem456]

You are the first Catholic I’ve heard refer to a sacrament, in this case ordination, as a tradition.
It seems to me that a sacrament would be doctrine, but I could be wrong.

Jon

A sacrament is a sign of a mysterious reality. By mystery we don’t mean strange or spooky. Mysterion means something of God that is not fully seen. It expresses truth. It’s not *a statement of *doctrine or a discipline, although elements of both of those are involved in supporting the sacramental nature.

774 The Greek word mysterion was translated into Latin by two terms: mysterium and sacramentum. In later usage the term sacramentum emphasizes the visible sign of the hidden reality of salvation which was indicated by the term mysterium. In this sense, Christ himself is the mystery of salvation: "For there is no other mystery of God, except Christ."196 The saving work of his holy and sanctifying humanity is the sacrament of salvation, which is revealed and active in the Church’s sacraments (which the Eastern Churches also call “the holy mysteries”). The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body. The Church, then, both contains and communicates the invisible grace she signifies. It is in this analogical sense, that the Church is called a “sacrament.”

 

[KjetilK]

Priestly celibacy isn’t Tradition - it’s a custom and discipline of your communion at this time in history. Nothing wrong with it and it’s probably beneficial, but for those churches that don’t practice it, it’s not an indication of abandoning tradition unless you logically count your own churches.

You are the first Catholic I’ve heard refer to a sacrament, in this case ordination, as a tradition.
It seems to me that a sacrament would be doctrine, but I could be wrong.

It seems to me that Jubilarian doesn’t understand his own Church’s distinction between Tradition (with a capital T, which mostly involves doctrine) and traditions (or disciplines). And the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t claim that Tradition is to be understood confessionally - as ‘Roman Catholic traditions’ - but as the faith that has been taught everywhere, always and by all.

And I wouldn’t say that a sacrament is a doctrine in itself, but that the teaching on it is doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks for the coarifications, Clem and Father K.

Jon

 

[Jubilarian]

It seems to me that Jubilarian doesn’t understand his own Church’s distinction between Tradition (with a capital T, which mostly involves doctrine) and traditions (or disciplines). And the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t claim that Tradition is to be understood confessionally - as ‘Roman Catholic traditions’ - but as the faith that has been taught everywhere, always and by all.

And I wouldn’t say that a sacrament is a doctrine in itself, but that the teaching on it is doctrine.

What you don’t understand is that I have referenced both types of tradition depending on the conversation. Celibacy is a tradition with a small t , nevertheless there are small t traditions that Protestants do not adhere to as well as doctrinal Tradiions.

 

[clem456]

What you don’t understand is that I have referenced both types of tradition depending on the conversation. Celibacy is a tradition with a small t , nevertheless there are small t traditions that Protestants do not adhere to as well as doctrinal Tradiions.

Celibacy is also a vocation. A person is called to it “for the sake of the kingdom”.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb72.htm

Those who in life choose continence for the kingdom of heaven do so, not because it is inexpedient to marry or because of a supposed negative value of marriage, but in view of the particular value connected with this choice and which must be discovered and welcomed personally as one’s own vocation.

The Church has recognized this value in regard to the priesthood.
It seems to me it is proper to recognize that celibacy is more than a tradition, although traditions are associated with it.

 

[Jubilarian]

You are the first Catholic I’ve heard refer to a sacrament, in this case ordination, as a tradition.
It seems to me that a sacrament would be doctrine, but I could be wrong.

Jon

Far from the first. Be careful not to over each . catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-a-celibate-priesthood

 

[benjohnson]

Celibacy is a tradition with a small t

I’m happy you figured that out.

 

[Jubilarian]

Celibacy is also a vocation. A person is called to it “for the sake of the kingdom”.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb72.htm

The Church has recognized this value in regard to the priesthood.
It seems to me it is proper to recognize that celibacy is more than a tradition, although traditions are associated with it.

Please read the following and see that celibacy before ordination is referred to as a tradition, in a serious way I might add.

 

[Jubilarian]

I’m happy you figured that out.

You are confusing an issue I apologized much earlier for, and that is that is that I was questioning ALL types of tradition . Yes, some are doctrinal and some are not. I did mistakenly mix the two together in a couple conversations.

 

[KjetilK]

What you don’t understand is that I have referenced both types of tradition depending on the conversation.

Yes, by constantly changing tactics and conflating them.

Celibacy is a tradition with a small t , nevertheless there are small t traditions that Protestants do not adhere to as well as doctrinal Tradiions.

Such as? Remember that you cannot put ‘Protestants’ into one group. You should treat each particular Church on its own. That way you would actually compare one Church with one Church.

 

[Jubilarian]

Indeed I am often confused. But I do have the ability to read. From your own link:

"The discipline was lived out in different ways, depending on where you were in the Church. "

and another

“Partly, celibacy is retained because of the native tendency not to change disciplines without a really good reason.”

Bolded for clarity.

Priestly celibacy isn’t Tradition - it’s a custom and discipline of your communion at this time in history. Nothing wrong with it and it’s probably beneficial, but for those churches that don’t practice it, it’s not an indication of abandoning tradition unless you logically count your own churches.

It is a tradition, a non doctrinal one. I have to wonder if you read my link.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It is a tradition, a non doctrinal one. I have to wonder if you read my link.

Are saying Tradition or tradition?

Have you read Cardinal Congar’s book: The Meaning of Tradition?

 

[Jubilarian]

Yes, by constantly changing tactics and conflating them.

I made an apology much earlier in the thread for any confusion I may have caused between the two. Let go.

Such as? Remember that you cannot put ‘Protestants’ into one group. You should treat each particular Church on its own. That way you would actually compare one Church with one Church.

Start a campaign to ban the word “Protestant” entirely. Why has the word lost its usage?

 

[Jubilarian]

Are saying Tradition or tradition?

Have you read Cardinal Congar’s book: The Meaning of Tradition?

In this case tradition.