Protestants DENY Tradition?

[Jubilarian]

That is just a non-answer.

But Baptist, Presbyterians, modern Evangelicals, and Pentecostals don’t “follow the principles of the Reformation.” They act in direct contradiction to it.

Yes, you did. And it is just another one of your ever changing ad hoc definitions that you keep changing as you paint yourself into the corner.

What is your problem? These definitions ARE NOT created by me. Are you capable of doing even a cursory search on the internet of the word “Protestant?”

The definition is from an internet dictionary , and is in line with other sources on the internet.

The only one in a corner is you, as you continue to act as if I’m the sole source of information about this issue.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I understand that YOU define yourselves that way.

Just like we define ourselves our way… Why would anyone other than ourselves determine what we should be named?

Did Luther take the name of Augustinian as a means of dismissing Augustine? Why do Lutherans take offense at the name “Lutheran” when Franciscans and Dominicans do not take offense at being called by the names of their founders?

Does that tell us something?

It tells us that some people have very little knowledge of history. The name Lutheran was coined by a Catholic: Eck. They originally called themselves Evangelical. Come on bro, that’s like Protestantism 101…

 

[Jubilarian]

Just like we define ourselves our way… Why would anyone other than ourselves determine what we should be named?

You mean titles have no relevance? With such logic, we should abandon a myriad of terms that describe what people are.

It tells us that some people have very little knowledge of history. The name Lutheran was coined by a Catholic: Eck. They originally called themselves Evangelical. Come on bro, that’s like Protestantism 101…

So. The name “Christian” was not coined by Christ, should you reject it. A Lutheran is not following the ideals set forth by Luther ? Did Luther not “Protest” many teachings of the CC?

I noticed you used the word “Protestantism” to expound on the historical point that Lutherans originally called themselves evangelical. Even you can help saying that Lutherans fall under the Protestant banner. Seriously dude.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just like we define ourselves our way… Why would anyone other than ourselves determine what we should be named?

Microsoft would have an issue with Apple claiming that it is really Microsoft even if Bill Gates did not start Apple.

It tells us that some people have very little knowledge of history. The name Lutheran was coined by a Catholic: Eck. They originally called themselves Evangelical. Come on bro, that’s like Protestantism 101…

Understood. And yet, the group which aligns itself most closely with Martin Luther had embraced the name and made it official.

ELutheranCA
LutheranCMS
WELutheranS

etc.

They didn’t have to do this…it was a conscious choice. So, apparently there was either no real offense taken or else they took pride in being 'Luther-an".

Either way, they certainly aren’t Catholic any more than the Greek Orthodox are Catholic.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Microsoft would have an issue with Apple claiming that it is really Microsoft even if Bill Gates did not start Apple.

Is Apple a member of Microsoft in an imperfect union with Bill Gates?

I thought you played chess

Understood. And yet, the group which aligns itself most closely with Martin Luther had embraced the name and made it official.

ELutheranCA
LutheranCMS
WELutheranS

etc.

They didn’t have to do this…it was a conscious choice. So, apparently there was either no real offense taken or else they took pride in being 'Luther-an".

Either way, they certainly aren’t Catholic any more than the Greek Orthodox are Catholic.

Does that mean that we still get to define what it means?

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070914042245/uncyclopedia/images/6/69/CircularReasoning.gif

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does that mean that we still get to define what it means?

Does the Catholic Church still get to define what it means to be in full communion with the Pope? I think so.

Can any group which claims to be the Catholic Church do so regardless of whether it agrees with historically Catholic doctrines or accepts the pope as the head of the Church or not?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Does the Catholic Church still get to define what it means to be in full communion with the Pope? I think so.

Can any group which claims to be the Catholic Church do so regardless of whether it agrees with historically Catholic doctrines or accepts the pope as the head of the Church or not?

Jump subject’s much?

Neither you or me get to tell a Lutheran what it means to be a Lutheran.

There is no need to jump subject in order to present something different that can turn the conversation into something that can be construed as a new correct argument.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Neither you or me get to tell a Lutheran what it means to be a Lutheran.

Agreed.

Catholics are, however, able to tell a Lutheran who claims to be a member of the Catholic Church that well, no, there is a bit more to being Catholic than simply asserting one’s membership.

 

[Jubilarian]

Neither you or me get to tell a Lutheran what it means to be a Lutheran.

Did Luther get to to Lutherans what it means to be a Lutheran(Evangelical not belonging to the CC)? Luther did just that and broke from the CC. If there is such animus towards connectivity between Luther’s teachings and being a Luthereran, I suggest a massive campaign to change the name Lutheran to “Non Protestant Catholic”. Even though technically, that would be flawed.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You mean titles have no relevance? With such logic, we should abandon a myriad of terms that describe what people are.

So. The name “Christian” was not coined by Christ, should you reject it. A Lutheran is not following the ideals set forth by Luther ? Did Luther not “Protest” many teachings of the CC?

I noticed you used the word “Protestantism” to expound on the historical point that Lutherans originally called themselves evangelical. Even you can help saying that Lutherans fall under the Protestant banner. Seriously dude.

To make an appeal to logic and ignore it’s very first law just destroys any argument that follows. You have single handedly managed to achieve this repeatedly.

You have also been corrected, repeatedly, in your historical misconceptions and the lack of specifics in your broadly themed argumentations. Making having a fruitful and charitable discussion with you, difficult.

If your are Catholic, then you should be well aware of the actual position of the Magisterium in regards to other Non-Catholics. Need I remind you that for Church teachings to be authoritative, there is no need for them to be infallible. In other words, a Catholic that is unable to follow the Church’s position becomes, as in your own definition, a Protestant.

Take some time and read Dominus Iesus, go to the USCCB and read on the ecumenical dialogues and visit the page of your Bishop’s diocese and inform yourself of the Authority you are bound to obey. Before you become that which you are so eager to criticize.

 

[Jubilarian]

To make an appeal to logic and ignore it’s very first law just destroys any argument that follows. You have single handedly managed to achieve this repeatedly.

You have also been corrected, repeatedly, in your historical misconceptions and the lack of specifics in your broadly themed argumentations. Making having a fruitful and charitable discussion with you, difficult.

If your are Catholic, then you should be well aware of the actual position of the Magisterium in regards to other Non-Catholics. Need I remind you that for Church teachings to be authoritative, there is no need for them to be infallible. In other words, a Catholic that is unable to follow the Church’s position becomes, as in your own definition, a Protestant.

Take some time and read Dominus Iesus, go to the USCCB and read on the ecumenical dialogues and visit the page of your Bishop’s diocese and inform yourself of the Authority you are bound to obey. Before you become that which you are so eager to criticize.

Writing the word “repeatedly” doesn’t bolster your position any further. Are all the source materials I presented “broad themed” with no concept of the unique definition you choose to apply? I could fill this page ten times over with encyclopedias of religion that refer to Lutherans 's as Protestant. If you doubt me, prove otherwise.

And you can prove otherwise in your next response by posting a decent source that says the following exact words," LUTHERANS ARE NOT PROTESTANT". Can you do that? If you can’t do that, don’t bother to reply, because then I will know you are hung up on an in-house hair splitting game that gives you some form of solace.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Take some time and read Dominus Iesus,

Dominus Iesus tells us:

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Dominus Iesus tells us:

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

Don’t leave highlight out, bro’:
**
those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.**

**65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66 **

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Writing the word “repeatedly” doesn’t bolster your position any further. Are all the source materials I presented “broad themed” with no concept of the unique definition you choose to apply? I could fill this page ten times over with encyclopedias of religion that refer to Lutherans 's as Protestant. If you doubt me, prove otherwise.

And you can prove otherwise in your next response by posting a decent source that says the following exact words," LUTHERANS ARE NOT PROTESTANT". Can you do that? If you can’t do that, don’t bother to reply, because then I will know you are hung up on an in-house hair splitting game that gives you some form of solace.

Read and get back to us bro’, and if you have read all those documents then please read them again.

Peace out.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ya gotta stop generalizing Jubilarian. Only fundamentalists reject tradition. Mainline Lutherans and Anglicans do not.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Of course Sola Scriptura is the Protestant mantra and they deny that tradition is as equally authoritative as the bible . What traditions are they following that are required to maintain their view of the “bible alone?” Contradictory?

Let’s revisit this again.

What is the Catholic definition of tradition in all its different forms?

What do you mean by starting the sentence with “Of course”?

What is the definition of Sola Scriptura?

What do you mean by Protestant?

What do you mean by mantra?

Who is “they”?

What are some sources where this “they” denies that tradition (small “t”) is equally authoritative as the Bible?

What do you mean by “bible” (Which Canon?)

If you posit that the deny tradition and then assert that this “they” are following and required to maintain this “their” view of the “bible alone”?

Did you just appeal to logic a few posts ago?

:whacky:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Don’t leave highlight out, bro’:
**
those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.**

**65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66 **

Yes, I am aware of those portions since I chose to include them rather than snipping them out and using ellipses.

 

[Jubilarian]

Read and get back to us bro’, and if you have read all those documents then please read them again.

Peace out.

Oh, the old ‘switch it back to me diversionary tactic.’

You couldn’t do what I asked you to do and bailed out of my request. Yes, Lutherans are Protestant. Thank you.

 

[JonNC]

Oh, the old ‘switch it back to me diversionary tactic.’

You couldn’t do what I asked you to do and bailed out of my request. Yes, Lutherans are Protestant. Thank you.

Ok. What do you think that means?

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Oh, the old ‘switch it back to me diversionary tactic.’

You couldn’t do what I asked you to do and bailed out of my request. Yes, Lutherans are Protestant. Thank you.

Lol, “El ladrón juzga por su condición”.

Just helping you out bro’.

BTW, I readdressed your OP in order to clear out misunderstandings.

And yeah, you are welcome.

:tiphat: