Protestants - divorce and remarriage

[Reuben_J]

Oh completely understand that IS THE Catholic position. Many if not most of us also question the “annulment” as not being a divorce for similar reasons concerning your other sacraments.

A child who is baptized doesn’t know the ramifications of their baptism…but “grace” is still bestowed…only as an adult are the “full blessings” of baptism realized because now understanding has occured.

Same with confirmation…an 8 year old child has no full understanding of the significance of the sacrament until later on in life…providing they continue in the tradition.

Marriage seems to be the same in some of your minds…there aren’t too many of us that enter into marriage realizing the full ramifications of marriage until a life lived in marriage is experienced. Since the bride and groom “marry one another” before God and the priest is a witness to it…there must come a time in the marriage when the full ramifications of marriage and all that it entails is finally understood…it would seem to me…and others…that even if there was some “impediment” of commitment at the time their vows were exchanged…if they were involved in the faith, a “sacramental” marriage would eventually be established as they grew in commitment and love toward one another…even if by intellectual ascent with no love present…and since it is God who joins them together thru their mutual commitment to one another as husband and wife…it “boggles” the mind how a marriage that brought forth children thru mutal commitment any “impediment” could be present to “invalidate” their marriage commitment since they “marry each other” before God…it would seem to me a sacramental marriage eventually “occurs” in Reality.

While “annulment” of a 30 year marriage sure appears to be “divorce” to those not privy to the in’s and out’s of Catholic understanding.

Do Catholics divorce and remarry? Of course…divorce among Catholics is no less than the national average…one’s faith tradition doesn’t seem to have any effect on divorce rates.

It is true that Sacraments give grace. There are times/situations however when a Sacrament is invalid.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

Do the Protestant denominations restrict remarriage after a divorce, or is one essentially permitted to “remarry” as often as one likes? Is there any annulment process? I know LDS have their temple unsealings, but I don’t think of that as a valid Christian sect.

The Lutheran view is that of three in a marriage, the couple, and Christ Jesus as the bridegroom in your marriage. Two flesh and souls become one in Christ Jesus and share on Spirit in Christ Jesus. My wife and I had to read allowed all the bridegroom Scriptures, and pretty much all of Ephesians and Galatians which are pivotal to keeping a Gospel perspective on marriage. There’s many other Scriptures as well but these stood out the most and offer the most marital resources in a single read.

To divorce is equal to divorcing God.

Only in instances were a spouse is at an all out war against the Church, adultery, physical abuse, jailed for a heinous crime, and etc… will a pastor nullify the marriage.

There’s no particular number restriction on remarriage, but we’d pray that the next marriage would be a God pleasing and enduring one, till death do you part. Pastors will refuse to perform marriages where they don’t feel a congregational member is upholding their responsibility within the institution of marriage. My Church required a long marriage counseling series of sessions before the pastor would move forward with the marriage. They’ll go over all the basic issues of seeing each other in union on their faith, family, future children, finances, aspirations in life, pet peeves and annoyances; and then work out the weak spots of concern before allowing a wedding to go through.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

One of my best friends is Catholic…welll…not a practicing Catholic anyway…he was raised Catholic. His sister IS very much into the church…after 25 years of marriage and 6 children, she decided she never had a “sacramental marriage” with her “not real husband”…so filed for an annullment. She put her brother, my friend, down as a contact and witness. He received some papers to fill out and attest to the “impediment” of her first marriage.

After a long conversation with him calling her on her…“story” she wanted him to cooberate he did so with much pressure frim his family…his sister had met another man she had falen in love with…she sought an annullment…my friend went ahead and agreed that there was an “impediment” to the first “marriage”…after much pressure from his Catholic family…after a large donation to the diocese from her parents the process of annulment went through without a hitch…she has since married the man of her dreams…he decided if she wanted to re-marry after 25 years of “not really married and six children”, he agreed to cooberate her story…annullnemt granted…she re-married…I don’t get it either…

I have a difficult time understanding how an adult couple, involved in the Catholic church to the extent of being RCIA instructors could have their marriage annulled. I guess it happens…Protestants go through the same mental gymnastics to justify their divorces and remarriages…just don’t have to pay the annullment fees or what have you to have it done…

Children are a marriage of the flesh and Holy Spirit and the act of sexual conduct is in itself an unglorified, but legitimate marriage between two persons. Dividing them apart, to include separating the children from biological parents, is also a separation of the Holy Spirit. I would hope that all circumstances were taken into account and a very deliberate decision was made based on the facts.

It’s too late now that another marriage is in place, and the most must be made of it, in as God pleasing a manor as possible. I’m surprised this was allowed to go through to begin with.

My wife’s ex-husband converted to Islam and became abusive, so we had no problem getting approval from my pastor to marry us, and adopting her daughter. But, not every case is so simple, or cut and dry, where nothing major is going on other than a couple growing board of one another.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

I certainly can’t speak for all Protestant groups, but before I entered I to full communion with the Catholic Church I was a member of the United Methodist Church. The UMC officially frowns on divorce and views it as a sort of necessary evil. But when it occurs, it is not considered an impediment to remarriage.

In practice, individual Methodists may divorce and remarry pretty much at-will. This disconnect with the Scriptural teaching on marriage is part of why my wife and I began looking for a different faith community, and we eventually became Catholics together. (And I say this with much love and respect for our Methodist brethren; we were both Baptized as Methodists and maintain a deep affinity for the UMC – I hope nobody takes offense!)

You got out at a good time, a huge Charismatic wave of influence is sweeping across UMC. They’re already in open communion with the ELCA that broke off from the Lutheran Church in the 1970’s. UMC, UCC, and ELCA may all merge at some point in the near future, making it the largest Christian denomination in the US. They’ll be ordaining non-celibate gay pastors within the decade if I had to guess; unless something really changes between now and then. It’s a shame, they have great hospitals and schools.

 

[ltwin]

You got out at a good time, a huge Charismatic wave of influence is sweeping across UMC. They’re already in open communion with the ELCA that broke off from the Lutheran Church in the 1970’s. UMC, UCC, and ELCA may all merge at some point in the near future, making it the largest Christian denomination in the US. They’ll be ordaining non-celibate gay pastors within the decade if I had to guess; unless something really changes between now and then. It’s a shame, they have great hospitals and schools.

Actually, the UMC is in a pretty good place right now. It has a large and growing membership in Africa, which is evangelical and conservative. As the membership in the US keeps declining, the Africans and evangelicals in the USA will likely be able to keep the UMC from going off a cliff.

 

[ltwin]

It is true that Sacraments give grace. There are times/situations however when a Sacrament is invalid.

What are these times and situations?

 

[jpaul1953]

Most Protestants do not have a “codified allulment” process. For most Protestants. one is married period…there is not that finely crafted distinction made that allows a marriage of years and decades to be annuled because one spouse decides at some time either during the ceremony they didn’t realize or know they were to be entering into a life long covenant relationship between them and their chosen spouse before God some years later and thus NOW have the means of leaving one’s chosen spouse and having the marriage “annuled” as Catholics do…in most Protestant circles I am acquainted…there are “knowing smiles” and “raised eyebrows” when we hear "Catholics don’t believe in divorce nor is divorce allowed’ when most of us have Catholic friends and family members who have “married” then “found” an impediment to that marriage when they wanted out of it and filed for an “annulment” and now free to “remarry”.

Most of us, IMO…at least in the circles I am acquainted view Catholic “annulment” processes as “divorce” no matter what it is called by the ecclesial community that publishes the 'annulment papers" and makes the “decree of annullment”.

Many of us realize errors in judgement are made for those who are young and tow people “grow out of the marriage” instead of “grow into” the marriage. We realize that sometimes the people in the marriage are no longer the same people a decade later…and find no need to…“play” word games and religious buzz words to “invalidate” a marriage…most of us believe that while divorce is wrong and should never happen…life does happen…people grow apart…violence and infidelity do occur…a marriage may end long before there is an eccleiastical pronouncement of “nullity” or a civil decree of “disoluttion”…divorce occurs. It is the decision of each person to make for themselves how they wish to proceed and it is God and them that must reconcile their differences toward “divorce”.

In more conservative traditions a divorced person…or a person of an “annulled marriage” may not hold offcie within the local body of believers…in most Mainline traditions, divorce is never celebrated…and remarriage is allowed because “life happens”. It happens, so there is no use denying “we don’t believe in divorce” so we’ll call it “annullment.” instead.

I realize THAT is not the Catholic “official position”…but when “life happens” for Catholics and a “marriage” is no longer considered “valid”…it is “annulled”…most Protestants do not view it as such…for most of us, a “decree of nullity” for a Catholic is the Catholic version of “divroce”…softened by calling it an “annulment” thereby adhering to the “letter of the law” of “no divorce allowed”.

Not an indictment of Catholic belief…just how many…if not most of us view the Catholic position, not withstanding how Catholics view it themselves.

Dear Publisher,

Do you know how many annulments are refused…many of them. Do you know what constitutes the right to a possible annulment. 1) invalid marriage stated as one accidentally marries a semi-close relative. 2) invalid marriage in as much as the individuals who are married were not of sound mind when they took their vows, either one. 3) invalid marriage because one or both married people refuse to have children, but it’s usually just one of them…Do you know what an annulment signifies…the right to remarry.

The Catholic Church permits divorce, the right of such given to the married couple. If one gets divorced either may not ever remarry or have conjugal relations with anyone else unless they permit Holy Mother Church her authority to annul or permanently end a marriage in question. If the annulment is not granted, you can stay divorced but any sexual relation causes one to commit a mortal sin which will send them to hell if one dies in that state. I hope this helps in your understanding of the Annulment and Divorce in our Church.

Respectfully

JPaul1953

 

[Reuben_J]

What are these times and situations?

For a Sacrament to be valid there must be valid form and intent. It is not if there is an element of fraud, coercion, and withholding vital information about previous marriage. The intention is also vital in that the couple should knowingly involve God in their marriage and not for the sake of getting the marriage certificate.

 

[Publisher]

Dear Publisher,

Do you know how many annulments are refused…many of them. Do you know what constitutes the right to a possible annulment. 1) invalid marriage stated as one accidentally marries a semi-close relative. 2) invalid marriage in as much as the individuals who are married were not of sound mind when they took their vows, either one. 3) invalid marriage because one or both married people refuse to have children, but it’s usually just one of them…Do you know what an annulment signifies…the right to remarry.

The Catholic Church permits divorce, the right of such given to the married couple. If one gets divorced either may not ever remarry or have conjugal relations with anyone else unless they permit Holy Mother Church her authority to annul or permanently end a marriage in question. If the annulment is not granted, you can stay divorced but any sexual relation causes one to commit a mortal sin which will send them to hell if one dies in that state. I hope this helps in your understanding of the Annulment and Divorce in our Church.

Respectfully

JPaul1953

Friend, I have no misunderstanding as to what Catholics mean by annullment, and I understand to a large extent the process one must go through to get the chuch to declare their marriage “annulled” so they may marry again.

The thread is “Protestants-divorce and remarriage”…the Protestant view is divorce is wrong. There is no process for annullment to asage conscience. Divorce is a part of life…so is remarriage. A Protestant may have their marriage disolved through secular courts…they see no need to get an “annullment”…In Protestant minds…a marriage of 30 years, with 4-5 children is a “marriage”…no piece of church issued paper is going to make the “marriage” go away…Catholics don’t believe in divorce…that’s why they call it 'annullment"…because they don’t believe in divorce…“walks like a duck…quacks like a duck…looks like a duck…lays eggs like a duck”…whether one calls it “annullment” or “divorce”…the outcome is the same…a disolution of the marriage…no matter how long the “marriage” lasted or how many children it produced.

On this we will always differ. “Divorce” or “annullment”…the marriage or “supposed marriage” still is disolved…or declared “null” as “not really ever happenng”. “Walks like a duck…”

 

[PRmerger]

What are these times and situations?

For example:

A priest uses Pepsi and Ritz crackers to confect the Eucharist.

A person is baptized using champagne.

A woman is ordained.

A man and woman are married when the woman is already married to someone else.

A person confesses a sin to which he is not repentant.

 

[PRmerger]

On this we will always differ. “Divorce” or “annullment”…the marriage or “supposed marriage” still is disolved…or declared “null” as “not really ever happenng”. “Walks like a duck…”

Not exactly, Publisher.

It is less like “not really ever happening” and more like, “no sacrament was ever confected.”

I once heard a priest talk about the Sacrament of Baptism, saying: if we could look into the soul and see what happens to it during Baptism, it would make nuclear fission look like child’s play.

Similarly, if we could look into the soul of a man and woman who receive the Sacrament of Matrimony, we would see a profound and sublime change. They become One.

However, sometimes it turns out that there was no profound and sublime change. No sacrament was confected.

That’s what an annulment discerns.

BTW: I notice an increasing animus in your posts of late. Not the Publisher I used to know and like. What has changed, friend?

 

[Sarah_23]

My grandfather was a Baptist preacher. He wouldn’t marry my mother and father because they had been in a previous marriage. It still bothers my father today. I am Presbyterian (not Calvinist). We don’t really discuss marriage a lot in my church. I’m not sure about other denominations but Baptists are really strict. Most Protestants I know have no problem with divorce and remarriage.

 

[VivienneJ]

My grandfather was a Baptist preacher. He wouldn’t marry my mother and father because they had been in a previous marriage. It still bothers my father today. I am Presbyterian (not Calvinist). We don’t really discuss marriage a lot in my church. I’m not sure about other denominations but Baptists are really strict. Most Protestants I know have no problem with divorce and remarriage.

And, by contrast (admittedly in South Africa) I know many divorced and remarried Baptists (wedding conducted in the Baptist church by the Baptist pastor).

 

[Sarah_23]

And, by contrast (admittedly in South Africa) I know many divorced and remarried Baptists (wedding conducted in the Baptist church by the Baptist pastor).

The Baptists I know are all Southern Baptist. I guess that’s the difference.

 

[benjohnson]

However, sometimes it turns out that there was no profound and sublime change.

Oddly enough, this is sort of what my OSAS friends say when one of their fellow members benign to sin - that they ‘never really took Jesus into their heart to begin with.’

That said… we silly Lutherans avoid the whole problem of having to annul a sacrament by declaring that we only have two sacraments. The good news is these two can never be found to be lacking: Baptism and Communion.

 

[robwar]

My grandfather was a Baptist preacher. He wouldn’t marry my mother and father because they had been in a previous marriage. It still bothers my father today. I am Presbyterian (not Calvinist). We don’t really discuss marriage a lot in my church. I’m not sure about other denominations but Baptists are really strict. Most Protestants I know have no problem with divorce and remarriage.

i think it depends on the Baptists since that is a wide and varied group and sometimes is just used a a broad catch all phrase. The more fundamental or conservative the Baptist group, the stricter they may seem towards divorce and remarriage. But again as some of the posters pointed out, some group would see a previous divorce before one became “born again” as not an impediment to remarriage within the church but that would not be the Catholic view which is that marriage is considered valid even if the person wasn’t Catholic. I would image the fact your grandfather refusing to marry your father and mother to be a big hurt.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

If your marriage is anulled, would you have to confess the sin of fornication?

To the OP, I was raised Church of Christ (not LDS) When my mother divorced my father, she was told not to come back to church.
I have a friend who is a Southern Baptist preacher. He will not marry a couple if one is baptized and the other isn’t. I don’t know how he feels about marrying previously married couples.

 

[PRmerger]

Oddly enough, this is sort of what my OSAS friends say when one of their fellow members benign to sin - that they ‘never really took Jesus into their heart to begin with.’

Interesting.

Once married always married* = OSAS.

PRmerger likes.

*until death, of course.

That said… we silly Lutherans avoid the whole problem of having to annul a sacrament by declaring that we only have two sacraments. The good news is these two can never be found to be lacking: Baptism and Communion.

What does your church say about divorce and re-marriage, ben? I am not familiar with the Lutheran position on this.

 

[benjohnson]

What does your church say about divorce and re-marriage, ben? I am not familiar with the Lutheran position on this.

At the beginning of the thread, I put up a link to our rather long 50 page document on the subject.

But, If I had to distill it to a sentence "Somewhat like Orthodox with a strong practical measures to make it rare: pre-marriage counselling, lots of pastoral care, and enough Law so that people repent. " The big difference with Catholics I think is that we view divorce as a singular sin to be repented and forgiven, not as a potential beginning of continuous unrepentant un-chastity.

 

[PRmerger]

At the beginning of the thread, I put up a link to our rather long 50 page document on the subject.

But, If I had to distill it to a sentence "Somewhat like Orthodox with a strong practical measures to make it rare: pre-marriage counselling, lots of pastoral care, and enough Law so that people repent. " The big difference with Catholics I think is that we view divorce as a singular sin to be repented and forgiven, not as a potential beginning of continuous unrepentant un-chastity.

While I don’t have time to read the 50 page document, if you could distill the Lutheran position, how would you respond to this question: what, then, do Lutherans make of Jesus’ words in Matthew regarding divorce and re-marriage being adultery?