Mea Culpa;4170579]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How can it be infallible when we know it has erred?
Mea Culpa
When has the Catholic Church erred in teaching faith and morals?
In the case of Joan of Arc, Galieo and the inquisitions for starters.
Quote:justasking4
The promise to lead into the truth was not made to any church but to the immediate disciples.
Mea Culpa
Would those be the disciples that went on to build the Catholic Church?
They went to preach the gospel which resulted in the church being built on their teachings.
Quote:justasking4
Not so. Inerrancy is derived from the nature of the Scriptures themselves which have as their source God Himself. All that the church can do is to proclaim thi. It cannot make them inerrant.
Mea Culpa
Do you think the Bible fell out of the sky one day? The canon of the Bible was proclaimed by several Catholic Church councils. We know that what these Church councils proclaimed as the canon of scripture is correct because the Catholic Church is infallible when it teaches faith and morals.
The canon of the Scriptures was not determined correct because the Catholic church is infallible when it teaches faith and morals.
Otherwise, how would you know what books should make up the Bible?
There were a number of tests that helped to determine which books should make up the NT.
It doesn’t say what books should be in the Bible in the Bible itself. It is only because of the authority of the Catholic Church that we have the Bible in the first place. It is a product of Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
Its far more than just saying the church says it is.
Quote:justasking4
Again this is not true for 2 reasons:
1- Jesus never promised this
2- false would come in and decieve.
Mea Culpa
- Your one-liner responses are more like heckling than a serious response. I posted several passages from scripture where Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into all truth, bring to remembrance all that he said, that the gates of Hades would not prevail against it, etc.
I know He said these things but these things do not support the idea the church can never err. Just look at the history of the Catholic church and you will see what i mean.
- What does “false would come in and decieve (sic)” supposed to mean?
False teachers would come into the church itself and decieve many. This is already happening.
When Jesus said that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church, was he lying?
To prevail does not mean it would never err. Again we can look at church history and be sickened by the evil done be the church.
When he said the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth, was he lying?
You missunderstand what this means.
Of course false teachers will come and and preach falsehood - you should know this better than any one since that is what you are doing. But that doesn’t mean that the Church will accept and teach that falsehood. Some will be led astray, but the Church itself is protected by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said so, and I believe Him. Apparently, you don’t.
Just look at some of the writings on Mary for example. Read the Glories of Mary and see the things that are written about her.
Quote:justasking4
No. I mean the marian doctrines, purgatory, and indulgences to name a few that violate 2 John 9
2 John 9: Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son.
Mea Culpa
You left out 2 John 12: “Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.”
Apparently, there are things besides what is written down that constitute the “doctrine of Christ” - at least John says so. Jesus in the Gospel of John promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church “into all truth.” That is what Sacred Tradition is all about - the Holy Spirit leading the Church into the fullness of the Truth.
This still does not change the fact your church has not followed 2 John 9. The examples i used were never taught by Jesus or His apostles.
Quote:justasking4
What is the subject of 2 Timothy 3:16-17?
Mea Culpa
The subject of the sentence is Scripture. It still doesn’t say only scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness - there is no “sola” there.
True but it is showing that it is Scripture has this power to do these things. Nowhere in the Scriptures is it ever said traditions or the teachings of men can do this.
I don’t know what this one-liner response is supposed to prove?
It is to show that when interpreting Scripture we must always interpret with the context or we will missinterpret it.
Quote:justasking4
Its also the primary authority in Protestant churches.
Mea Culpa
protestant churches do not have Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church, they have separated themselves from the fullness of the truth, so all they have to rely on is their own mis-interpretations of Holy Scripture.
What exactly is Sacred Tradition? Is there a list somewhere that tells you what it is so you know the difference between Scripture and Sacred Tradition?
The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim scripture as their authority - would you say they have interpreted it correctly?
In most cases no.
There are 30,000 different protestant sects, all with varying interpretations of scripture.
The protestant sects i’m aware of do agree on a number of important doctrines.
Even in the Catholic church you have a number of different interpretations of various doctrines and practices.
This is what happens when you reject the Church that Jesus Christ founded.
Have you ever compared the NT church structure with the Catholic church? What you find is that they are not the same thing in structure or doctrines.
This is not what God wants. He is a God of peace, not of Chaos. Everyone doing and believing whatever they want based on their own misreading of scripture is what sola scriptura leads to. Sola scriptura is a lie. Those who believe in it have traded the truth of God for a lie.
No doubt there are problems with Sola Scriptura applications. However, there are just as serious problems with many doctrines and practices in the Catholic church.