Protestants do not really believe in Sola Scriptura

[joessoft]

Isaiah 53
New American Standard Bible

1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

 

[JRKH]

Jesus is The Rock, not any man and that can be proven in The Bible… He is our only sure foundation.

(Snip)
May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.

Joe,
With all courtesy and good wishes.
If you wish to participate in the discussion as presented in the OP, please do so. I appreciate you zeal, but simply piling on large doses of Scripture is not proving the Authority of the Bible, or the validity of the belief in Sola Scriptura.

Peace
James

 

[joessoft]

Joe,
With all courtesy and good wishes.
If you wish to participate in the discussion as presented in the OP, please do so. I appreciate you zeal, but simply piling on large doses of Scripture is not proving the Authority of the Bible, or the validity of the belief in Sola Scriptura.

Peace
James

Thank you, The Bible speaks for itself… all of life answers lies there within. It will answer any ones questions about Jesus Christ, His Father or The Holy Spirit.,

There is nothing out side of His word that is not speculation.

In fine I am on topic and can prove by using scripture there is nothing out side His word that really matters… after all…

Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

What is Sola scriptura

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, “by scripture alone”) is the assertion that the Bible as God’s written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter (“Scripture interprets Scripture”), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

Now would you like me to say the Mass in Latin ((g)) I still can though I am whats known as a Protestant now… ( mans label ).

In fine,
You may ban me ( shut me up ) any time you so choose.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you, The Bible speaks for itself… all of life answers lies there within. It will answer any ones questions about Jesus Christ, His Father or The Holy Spirit.,

There is nothing out side of His word that is not speculation.

I know of no passage in the Bible which says the Bible speaks for itself.
Therefore your statement that The Bible speaks for itself is, in istelf a speculation.

In fine I am on topic and can prove by using scripture there is nothing out side His word that really matters… after all…

I am sure you can. Any book or series of books that are asembled from a certain viewpoint will stand together and be self supporting. The Bible Proving itself to be right proves nothing really. I can prove any given Book to be true if I only use that Book.
how do you prove the bible’s authority outside of the Bible, that is the question.

What is Sola scriptura

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, “by scripture alone”) is the assertion that the Bible as God’s written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter (“Scripture interprets Scripture”), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

Yes, This is the same definition that I posted some number of posts earlier in this thread.
There have been a number of posts that have shown that this belief is flawed. Perhaps you would like to review those posts and, if you have anything to add, you could post your specific views on the points made rather than simply quoting large portions of the Bible.
You might wish to start with the question of where, in which chapter and verse is Sola Scriptura Taught Where does it say that all you need is the Bible. For without this, “Self-Authenticating” falls dead, and the rest is moot.

Now would you like me to say the Mass in Latin ((g)) I still can though I am whats known as a Protestant now… ( mans label ).

That’s OK. I believe you. I Love the Latin Mass.

In fine,
You may ban me ( shut me up ) any time you so choose.

Why would you think I’m trying to ban you?
I have no such authority, or desire. I simply hope you will fully participate in the discussion rather than simply spout Bible passages as though the people here had never heard of the Book or opened it or read it. The people here are, for the most part, Christians like yourself. We have differences yes, but we come from similar heritages. We will treat you as an intelligent, Loving, Knowledgable and sincere Christian if you will treat us in the same way.

I look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut .

Peace
James

 

[joessoft]

I know of no passage in the Bible which says the Bible speaks for itself.
Therefore your statement that The Bible speaks for itself is, in istelf a speculation.

I am sure you can. Any book or series of books that are asembled from a certain viewpoint will stand together and be self supporting. The Bible Proving itself to be right proves nothing really. I can prove any given Book to be true if I only use that Book.
how do you prove the bible’s authority outside of the Bible, that is the question.

Yes, This is the same definition that I posted some number of posts earlier in this thread.
There have been a number of posts that have shown that this belief is flawed. Perhaps you would like to review those posts and, if you have anything to add, you could post your specific views on the points made rather than simply quoting large portions of the Bible.
You might wish to start with the question of where, in which chapter and verse is Sola Scriptura Taught Where does it say that all you need is the Bible. For without this, “Self-Authenticating” falls dead, and the rest is moot.

That’s OK. I believe you. I Love the Latin Mass.

Why would you think I’m trying to ban you?
I have no such authority, or desire. I simply hope you will fully participate in the discussion rather than simply spout Bible passages as though the people here had never heard of the Book or opened it or read it. The people here are, for the most part, Christians like yourself. We have differences yes, but we come from similar heritages. We will treat you as an intelligent, Loving, Knowledgable and sincere Christian if you will treat us in the same way.

I look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut .

Peace
James

That is because to some it seems , The Bible is the “LIVING” Word… ( It’s Alive - He Has Risen ) and to others it’s mere inanimate print.

**You said:

how do you prove the bible’s authority outside of the Bible, that is the question.**

1. By His Creation – You will know by His creation that He Is.
2. by Faith, Faith comes by hearing and hearing from The Word of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory for a season.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6

Of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Ecclesiastes 12:12b

But these are written,** that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;** and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Psalms 19:1 (NIV)

But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? Job 12:7-9 (NIV)

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

“Ask it will be given to you
Seek you will find
Knock it will be opened to you”

• Jesus
  Matt. 7:7

The self-witness of Scripture must not only be the first consideration in the argument; it must be the final and decisive consideration as faith comes by hearing His “LIVING” word.

When I ministered - there was NOTHING I COULD DO ON MY OWN and I knew it well… to “convince” any one the Bible is The Gospel (Truth, Way and Life) -

Only when I let go and let God through Christ and his Holy Spirit did any one hear… His Word ( not me or mine ) when Jesus comes through you, the Devils power is broken, ears are open as He commanded and Eyes finally truly see all that matters in life…reconciliation with Father God through Jesus Christ.

I need not Prove His Word is Alive one needs to PROVE it’s not and have been trying to since Christ came into the world…

 

[Roy5]

’BIG TENT’ APPEALS TO ME

 1. Personally, I like the 'big tent' approach to Christianity. When someone disagrees with me or another member of our Bible class, the response is: "I can't agree, but I find your views interesting.'  This whole notion that we can't check out the Bible ourselves and disagree with one another - or disagree with the Church - troubles me. Does anyone really believe that Christ will condemn us for honestly believing differently from another Christian? For centuries, even within the Church, various doctrines were taught or newly declared. Read Abelard's Sic et Non in which he points out these contraditions within the Church. Doesn't anyone really believe that our good and merciful God will punish honest differences of opinion? Of course not! When Jesus was asked how to eternal life (Luke 10) he said nothing about dogma or joining a church, but told the lawyer to love God and his neighbor.

   2. Just a note re the number of books in the Bible. Not that it makes all that much difference. The 'Protestant' Old Testament follows the Hebrew scripture as used in synagogues today. As I recall, St. Jerome went along with the same number - 39 in the OT, 27 in the NT. There is an argument on both sides, but to claim that only one side is right is silly and unnecessary.

   3. I heard someone say recently that most religions divide between those that see God as a God of wrath and those who see God as a God of love. I prefer the latter and don't worry at all if my brothers and sisters adhere to different interpretations of Christianity as long as they don't piously condemn me for my 'big tent' viewpoint.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

No, not all protestants believe in “Scripture Alone”, but they should! Catholics DO NOT believe in scripture alone, but REALLY SHOULD!
Where in scripture is the authorization for a catechism? It’s not there! We’ve be given all we need, catholics and denominations just will not accept this simple commandment.

Where is the commandment to allow instruments? Not there!
Where’s the authorization to allow, women to serve in the service; isn’t there!
Where does the Bible tell us there are still miracles? Not there!
Where do we find the approval to worship on Saturday instead of Sunday? Not there!
Where do we find the commandment that priests should be celibate? (what a joke) it isn’t there!

Where is sola scriptura taught? Not there!

 

[joessoft]

You said: God as a God of love

That is God. For God so loved the World… For God is not willing that any should perish…

yet he gave us a structure and asked we willingly submit to His plan.

He also stated in no uncertain terms some will hear and some will not… but it’s not our job to discern who will or wont. Our job is simple,
have Faith, Trust in Him, preach the Word, in season and out of season… heal the sick, raise the dead.

The spiritually sick are many and those dead as they are not in Christ ( do not believe ) wait for some one who will tell them The Good News.

You can be a Harvard Theology Prof. … yet,

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; KJB I Corinthians 1:27

He’s not impressed. ((lol))

Yes love is the bottom line… and the blood streaming message through out the old and new testaments … until He returns, as you state we can only hope for perfect love in us and around us

Gos Bless

 

[Mea_Culpa]

That is because to some it seems , The Bible is the “LIVING” Word… ( It’s Alive - He Has Risen ) and to others it’s mere inanimate print.

**You said:

how do you prove the bible’s authority outside of the Bible, that is the question.**

1. By His Creation – You will know by His creation that He Is.
2. by Faith, Faith comes by hearing and hearing from The Word of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory for a season.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6

Of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Ecclesiastes 12:12b

But these are written,** that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;** and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Psalms 19:1 (NIV)

But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? Job 12:7-9 (NIV)

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

“Ask it will be given to you
Seek you will find
Knock it will be opened to you”

• Jesus
  Matt. 7:7

The self-witness of Scripture must not only be the first consideration in the argument; it must be the final and decisive consideration as faith comes by hearing His “LIVING” word.

When I ministered - there was NOTHING I COULD DO ON MY OWN and I knew it well… to “convince” any one the Bible is The Gospel (Truth, Way and Life) -

Only when I let go and let God through Christ and his Holy Spirit did any one hear… His Word ( not me or mine ) when Jesus comes through you, the Devils power is broken, ears are open as He commanded and Eyes finally truly see all that matters in life…reconciliation with Father God through Jesus Christ.

I need not Prove His Word is Alive one needs to PROVE it’s not and have been trying to since Christ came into the world…

Nice collection of Bible quotes. Not one of them says the Bible is the sole rule of faith and morals. Not one of them says the Bible is self-interpreting. So what is the point?

 

[JRKH]

That is because to some it seems , The Bible is the “LIVING” Word… ( It’s Alive - He Has Risen ) and to others it’s mere inanimate print.

Christ is the Living Word. Christ never wrote anything, nor is there any record of Him commanding anything to be written.

**You said:

how do you prove the bible’s authority outside of the Bible, that is the question.**

1. By His Creation – You will know by His creation that He Is.

His Creation Proves His existance. It does not Prove the Bible, or that The Bible is the Sole Rule of Faith

1. by Faith, Faith comes by hearing and hearing from The Word of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory for a season.

Notice that the Word of God Became Flesh (not a book). That we may Hear the Word and The Word of God shall be written upon Our Hearts (Not a book). Nothing in the Above Proves the Authority of the Bible.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

“All Scripture” in Pauls time consisted of the OT writings. Nothing written by Christians was, as yet, considered Sacred Scripture. Therefore this statement applies to the OT only.

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6

Of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Ecclesiastes 12:12b

Again this applies to OT writings.

But these are written,** that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;** and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

The verse before this admits that not everything that Jesus said or did is recorded, therefore by it’s own admission the Bible is incomplete insofar as recording everything that Jesus told the Apostles.

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Psalms 19:1 (NIV)

But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? Job 12:7-9 (NIV)

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

Again, Creation Proves God, it does not Prove “The Bible”

“Ask it will be given to you
Seek you will find
Knock it will be opened to you”

• Jesus
  Matt. 7:7

Agreed. But it still doesn’t “Prove” the authority of TheBible.

The self-witness of Scripture must not only be the first consideration in the argument; it must be the final and decisive consideration as faith comes by hearing His “LIVING” word.

Once again, you declare that we must Hear and the Word must be Living. The Bible is neither, unless one can be convinced in some way of the Authority of the Bible.

When I ministered - there was NOTHING I COULD DO ON MY OWN and I knew it well… to “convince” any one the Bible is The Gospel (Truth, Way and Life) -
Only when I let go and let God through Christ and his Holy Spirit did any one hear… His Word ( not me or mine ) when Jesus comes through you, the Devils power is broken, ears are open as He commanded and Eyes finally truly see all that matters in life…reconciliation with Father God through Jesus Christ.

I need not Prove His Word is Alive one needs to PROVE it’s not and have been trying to since Christ came into the world…

The only way that the collection of books contained in the bible can be shown to be authoritative,outside of quoting bible texts, is through history. It is through the Historically tracable Catholic Church, which Christ Himself founded, and to whom He gave His Authority and Protection that we have the Bible today.
When one disconnects the Bible from this base, and truth, that all sorts of problems arise. Like someone removing 7 books from the Bible that had been part of the canon for a millenia.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

’BIG TENT’ APPEALS TO ME

 1. Personally, I like the 'big tent' approach to Christianity. When someone disagrees with me or another member of our Bible class, the response is: "I can't agree, but I find your views interesting.'  This whole notion that we can't check out the Bible ourselves and disagree with one another - or disagree with the Church - troubles me. Does anyone really believe that Christ will condemn us for honestly believing differently from another Christian? For centuries, even within the Church, various doctrines were taught or newly declared. Read Abelard's Sic et Non in which he points out these contraditions within the Church. Doesn't anyone really believe that our good and merciful God will punish honest differences of opinion? Of course not! When Jesus was asked how to eternal life (Luke 10) he said nothing about dogma or joining a church, but told the lawyer to love God and his neighbor.

   2. Just a note re the number of books in the Bible. Not that it makes all that much difference. The 'Protestant' Old Testament follows the Hebrew scripture as used in synagogues today. As I recall, St. Jerome went along with the same number - 39 in the OT, 27 in the NT. There is an argument on both sides, but to claim that only one side is right is silly and unnecessary.

   3. I heard someone say recently that most religions divide between those that see God as a God of wrath and those who see God as a God of love. I prefer the latter and don't worry at all if my brothers and sisters adhere to different interpretations of Christianity as long as they don't piously condemn me for my 'big tent' viewpoint.

I have no real problem with anything you’ve written.
The only reason the “number of books” comes up is because people declare that the Bible is complete, inerrant, and self supporting, yet the number of books vary. The title is the same, but the number of books varies. It makes it really hard to convince someone of the inviolability of the Bible.

Peace
James

 

[joessoft]

Nice collection of Bible quotes. Not one of them says the Bible is the sole rule of faith and morals. Not one of them says the Bible is self-interpreting. So what is the point?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

The point is. it’s by Faith, not by sight after you have met Jesus Christ face to face… the Bible goes from a book of print type and
transforms into a Living Word… but only YOU as an individual can make it happen… YOU have to ask Jesus to forgive your sins and ask Him to come into your life… but Jesus and his word is so simple many stumble over that “rock”…

Lets look at His death. While hanging on the cross 2 men worthy of death hung near him. One begged for all he could think of… his personal and selfish well being, while the other recognized who his Savior was hanging by him and acknowledged Jesus was Lord, to the glory of God the Father… and Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise ( The man confessed he deserved death -( was a sinner) - and acknowledged Jesus as Lord - (a John 3. example of salvation.). did he go through any long periods of what some have called "indoctrination? nope. In my heart I believe Jesus was laying down one of His final principles for all mankind to see, His Law of Simplicity… that, as he professed would
be a stumbling block for man.

Today may be your day, have you asked Him to show you whats really real? You don’t need any fancy words or bible quotes flowing from your mouth or pen for Him to hear you… just a heart felt need for the Truth… Seek and you will find Him and your eyes will be opened …

Go off by yourself … in a quiet place and just speak to Him from your heart… He will answer… you will know the truth and the truth will set you free…

 

[joessoft]

I Corinthians 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

I Corinthians 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

**This is St. Paul proclaiming that God has used the weak and powerless to preach his message, like the 12 apostles were fishermen and tax collectors, not great emperors or scholars. This is a great quote -

BUT

What does it have to do with sola scriptura?

Also

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

No Catholic would argue that the Bible is God-breathed, and is profitable for all it says it is.

BUT

it doesn’t say only (sola) the Bible is profitable for these things. And it doesn’t say the Bible is self-interpreting.

You still haven’t provided ONE SINGLE Biblical passage that teaches sola scriptura.

That’s because the Bible doesn’t teach sola scriptura.

Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church, the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church, you will find the fullness of the Truth - Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. If you aren’t satisfied with a false doctrine and part of the truth, come home to the Catholic Church!**

 

[joessoft]

**You said: the Bible is incomplete insofar as recording everything that Jesus told the Apostles.
**

According to who? any one, maybe, who does not believe the creator of heaven and earth could not assemble what he wanted as a testament(s) of Him, His Son and His Spirit, His creation. If he wanted any thing else in there it would be there.

By faith, All we need to know is there.

I Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Some how man wants to always build a tower at babel, or other. that goes beyond seeking truth but proving a point of ones IQ.

When you have walked in the Spiritual Realm, all that is for naught. Believe or Don’t believe. It’s very black and white, there are no gray areas.

“That no flesh should glory in his presence,”

What is this Spiritual Realm you speak of Joe?

I’d elaborate, but rereading above I assume you already know, been there and done that.

I Been there Done that!

May God open your “spiritual eyes and ears” to hear and see His will be done, not mine nor yours.

Amen

 

[joessoft]

**This is St. Paul proclaiming that God has used the weak and powerless to preach his message, like the 12 apostles were fishermen and tax collectors, not great emperors or scholars. This is a great quote -

BUT

What does it have to do with sola scriptura?

Also

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

No Catholic would argue that the Bible is God-breathed, and is profitable for all it says it is.

BUT

it doesn’t say only (sola) the Bible is profitable for these things. And it doesn’t say the Bible is self-interpreting.

You still haven’t provided ONE SINGLE Biblical passage that teaches sola scriptura.

That’s because the Bible doesn’t teach sola scriptura.

Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church, the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church, you will find the fullness of the Truth - Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. If you aren’t satisfied with a false doctrine and part of the truth, come home to the Catholic Church!**

**Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church, the Catholic Church. **

Grin… Jesus is The Church and all Christians who believe are His Body… show me “catholic” in the bible…

You need to prove your correct it appears…

I grew up Irish Catholic my friend, and knew “about” Jesus… then one day, all alone ( long story) no one around, I met Jesus my Savior face to face… and now know Him …

I knew he was real that night… and I can say this with certainty, He lit my Holy Ghost fire… haha… I was actually asked to leave an Assembly of God Church for bringing too many new people in who were accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior… but that
was all in Gods plan as doors began to open quicker than I could walk through them… You see the wise and rich in that church liked things “the way they were” … and this influx of “oh my God” salivations was making them uneasy… The pastor left as well…
((g))

some day I will share that story… God willing.

 

[JRKH]

**You said: the Bible is incomplete insofar as recording everything that Jesus told the Apostles.
**

**According to who? ** any one, maybe, who does not believe the creator of heaven and earth could not assemble what he wanted as a testament(s) of Him, His Son and His Spirit, His creation. If he wanted any thing else in there it would be there.

According to the Author of the Gospel according to John Chapter 20 vs 30:
Jesus Performed many other signs as well - not recorded here - in the presence of His disciples…

Do you deny the Word of the Bible?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

**Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church, the Catholic Church. **

Grin… Jesus is The Church and all Christians who believe are His Body… show me “catholic” in the bible…

You need to prove your correct it appears…

It is not The Catholic Church that requires everything to be in hte Bible. Therefore we do not feel the need to Find everything in the Bible. But since you feel the need to find everything in the Bible, Find the term “Scripture Alone” as in that is all you need.

I grew up Irish Catholic my friend, and knew “about” Jesus… then one day, all alone ( long story) no one around, I met Jesus my Savior face to face… and now know Him …

I am glad that you had a revelation that has Brought you closer to Christ. Praise be to God. However, this has nothing to do with whether the principle of SS is valid or not.

I knew he was real that night… and I can say this with certainty, He lit my Holy Ghost fire… haha… I was actually asked to leave an Assembly of God Church for bringing too many new people in who were accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior… but that
was all in Gods plan as doors began to open quicker than I could walk through them… You see the wise and rich in that church liked things “the way they were” … and this influx of “oh my God” salivations was making them uneasy… The pastor left as well…
((g))

some day I will share that story… God willing.

Your story might make a inspirational start to a new thread.
for now we’ll try to stay focused on the topic of Sola Scriptura.

Peace
James

 

[Mea_Culpa]

**Jesus didn’t write a book, he founded a Church, the Catholic Church. **

Grin… Jesus is The Church and all Christians who believe are His Body… show me “catholic” in the bible…

You need to prove your correct it appears…

I grew up Irish Catholic my friend, and knew “about” Jesus… then one day, all alone ( long story) no one around, I met Jesus my Savior face to face… and now know Him …

Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. Read John 6. Where in the Bible does it say to ask Jesus into your heart as your personal saviour? (It doesn’t) You had the fullness of the Truth and you exchanged it for a lie.

I knew he was real that night… and I can say this with certainty, He lit my Holy Ghost fire… haha… I was actually asked to leave an Assembly of God Church for bringing too many new people in who were accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior… but that
was all in Gods plan as doors began to open quicker than I could walk through them… You see the wise and rich in that church liked things “the way they were” … and this influx of “oh my God” salivations was making them uneasy… The pastor left as well…
((g))

some day I will share that story… God willing.

What does this have to do with sola scriptura? Your personal testimony does not prove that sola scriptura is taught in the Bible.

Sola scriptura is unscriptural.

If the Bible is self-interpreting, where in the Bible is the list of books that should make up the Bible? That was determined by various Councils of the Catholic Church. What gave them the authority to do that? The fact that Christ founded the Catholic Church and then sent the Holy Spirit.

 "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.  But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, "Where are you going?"  But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts.  Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.  And when he comes, he will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in me; of righteousness, because I go to to the Father, and you will see me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.  He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.  All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

John 16:4-15

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t mention the word ‘commandments’ ( as in 10 of )" . The point I’m making is that there are lots of things that are perfectly clear to any reasonably minded person from a natural reading of the text.

And my counterpoint is that there are lots of things that seem perfectly clear in many different ways to many different people. The commandments are one example. What seems “reasonably minded” to you may not be to the next person.

What I’m objecting to is the Catholic stance that no-one else can express even these basic ideas to anyone else because they lack the catholic perception of 'authority".

This is not a "Catholic stance’. Catholicism does not attempt in any way to inhibit the religious expressions of other people.

Well, I’m sorry, but it seems pretty clear to me that Jesus wants ME to tell people the gospel I believe in - and He seems to have arranged for that to be spelt out in 1st Corinthians.15, so I don’t mess it up.

Why are you sorry? In ancient Israel, there was no judge in the land, and what did the people do? Each one did what was right in his own eyes. This is what people do when there is no unified leadership. It is human nature.

What I can say, is that I became a christian in the first place pretty much just through reading a protestant bible. It seemed quite clear to me at the time what I had to do to ‘become’ a disciple of Christ, and equally clear to me that ‘remaining’ a disciple is another issue altogether. And yes, over time as I matured I made the effort to investigate what the early church believed, and yes I checked the greek texts and made myself aware of some of the issues surrounding various translations etc etc etc.

Glad to year you are willing to grow in your faith.

What catholics of today seem to be saying to me

Well, I know there are a lot of Catholics that don’t understand their faith. Maybe you are getting misinformation? Or, maybe what they “seem to be saying” to you is skewed? What we understand goes through our own personal filters, and things are not always what they seem.

is that I should completely ignore the brain and reasoning powers God gave me, the help He’s given me by ensuring reliable translations of the sacred texts have been preserved for me to read myself, ignore the principle of constantly checking up on things despite the fact that I’m given numerous warnings in the New Testament about false teachers, prophets and brethren within the church and the need to do just that, plus my own life experience and ever deepening personal relationship with Christ since becoming a christian -

When in fact, the Church actually teaches the opposite of all these statements…

and immediately stop telling people about what they need to believe in to become a disciple of Christ - all because I lack what Catholics define as ‘authority’.

Everyone is expected to be ready to give an account for the hope that is within.

Authority is not defined by Catholics, but by God. You are not part of the teaching authority that Jesus created for His Church.

Is that a fair summation on my part?

It is probably a fair representation of the skewed information and perceptions that you presently have. It is not a fair summation of what the Church teaches.

I certainly haven’t encountered that sort of response amongst the godly Catholics I know, where I live.

I am glad that there are some Catholics in your life that correctly understand what the Church teaches!