Protestants do not really believe in Sola Scriptura

[KingsKid46]

[/BThe Bible is the very Word of God. I cannot understand why people get so upset and write off those of us who stand on the Word of God.
The Bible is Gods love letter to all of mankind. In it we find the heart and mind of God. ]

 

[larry_m]

The Council of Trent decided & proved that the Protestant Reformation did not stick to Scripture only. Case in point. The true Sabbath of the Bible. The Protestants gave a most convincing argument of Sola Scriptura. Alot of the Catholic delegates were convinced of giving up tradition & sticking with Scripture. The heads of the Church needed an argument to stop the Protestants headway. In stepped the Archbishop of Reggio. He contended, by argument of the Protestants keeping Sunday instead of Saturday as the Sabbath, that they did not stick to the Scripture only. Even in the Protestants statement of faith, The Augsburg Confession of Faith, 1530, that the “Lords day” had been appointed by “the Church” only. At least the Catholic Church has been honest enough to declare that she changed the Sabbath to Sunday. it is in many of her writings including the catechism. Google, Romes Challenge: Why do Protestants Keep Sunday & see for yourself. I am a Protestant. I submit to all Protestants to be as honest as the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

I Corinthians 1:26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

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[joessoft]

[/BThe Bible is the very Word of God. I cannot understand why people get so upset and write off those of us who stand on the Word of God.
The Bible is Gods love letter to all of mankind. In it we find the heart and mind of God. ]

Brother:

“Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14)

I saw your post and decided to reply. Many in the Catholic Church have come into the light and they too know Jesus not just about Jesus alone. This crew for the most part that types here are hung up on “traditions” and will until the day they die, unless God grants a miracle, will live to prove their theory is correct and to heck with the bible.

Philippians 2:1-4 “If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being** of the same mind**, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose, Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.”

The Bible is Gods living Word and yes, the bible say, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us ( Jesus is The Word that was there in the beginning and who is coming back again ) yet, like the “religious” leaders of Jesus day mocked Jesus expect to be mocked as you proclaim His word.

It’s not required any one go to “church” the bible says…

Hebrews 10:24-25 “And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

Church as they see it is some “sabbath” day one is bound to keep… but Church in reality is a seven day a week venture. The bible sees church in a very clear perspective when it states, “where two or more are gathered in my name there I am with them.”

Jesus came to set the captives free from “religion and the bondage” of the law among other things…

To those who are in Him (The Word of Life)1 Corinthians 1:9 “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus-Christ-our-Lord.”

1 John 1:1-3 “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life—and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.”

1 John 1:5-7 “And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Acts 2:42 “Everyone was filled with awe… all believers had everything in common… they praised God… everyday their numbers grew as people were saved!”

The inspired writer of Hebrews first exhorts us to “hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering” (10:23). To help us know what he is saying to us and apply it to our lives in these modern times, let us read this language of the New Testament in speech such as we use:

“Let us, without ever wavering, keep on holding to the hope that we profess”. The New English Bible renders this verse: “Let us be firm and unswerving in the confession of our hope.”

The phrase “let us hold fast” literally means “to hold in a firm grasp, to have in full and secure possession, the confession and the promises which we have openly and solemnly avowed to God.” In the process of our becoming Christians, we confessed that we believed in our hearts that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. We were baptized into him and arose to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3-4). The apostle admonishes us to be steady, firm, unmoved and unwavering in our faithfulness to this great acknowledgment and all that it implies.

Also note is sets aside no ONE SPECIFIC DAY, church as some refer to fellowship of the believers is 7 days a week

DO NOT FORSAKE THE ASSEMBLY

The Authorized, or King James Translation, of verse 25 reads: “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…” This is quite clear enough for all to see. There is no blur nor dimness in this language, but the original speech of the New Testament, and more modern translations, make the truth of this passage more easily understood, more sharply defined and more unmistakably distinct.

Catholics who have accepted Jesus Christ are our Brother & Sisters in Christ yet:

Paul issues a strong charge: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly…” (2 Thess. 3:6).

Those not in line with the Apostles teachings in The Bible that were inspired by God and encapsulate His Son, the Word who became flesh lived with them and dwells among us as our Resurrected Lord & Savior.

Because of our work habits, Sunday or Saturday or what ever day is free where you can gather together with other believers is “CHURCH”. period.

1Thes 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

We are to assemble for the good of each other.

We are to comfort each other.

This means to encourage one another and give relief to a brother in distress and have compassion on each other.

ALL these things can bring comfort to the believer and we should do anything else that can cause comfort to a brother or sister in the Lord and that includes a LONG LIST of comforting things I will not go into.

We are to edify and that is to teach each other. EACH ONE of God’s children has a gift or gifts of the Spirit and we should USE them. YOU know something I don’t know, or perhaps YOUR understand of a scripture or of an error in God’s house may be more clearer or keener than mine. SPEAK IT

We are to meet TOGETHER to teach and comfort and provoke EACH OTHER. This job does NOT fall on ONE MAN ONLY, be he minister, priest or rabbi.

In the letter to the Thessalonians Paul is speaking to the CHURCH, the whole assembly, not to JUST church leaders.

1Thes 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

1Thes 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

In the flesh we edify each other to benefit the soul, which I believe is our conscience. But worship in the spirit is perfect worship because the spirit is born again in perfection.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him

In fine, ideally, we should have constant Fellowship 7 days a week.

Despite we should make “church” as people call it a daily part of our lives… some like to assert that the Sabbath is on Saturday, YET, we are told that Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath
(Luke 6:5)
and that HE moved the gathering time to the First Day of the Week
(Luke 24:1; John 20:19),
which was taken up and followed by the Apostles
(Acts 20:7; I Corinthians 16:1-2).

Thus, Sunday or the New Sabbath has become the day when Believers gather, most out of fear of “sinning” as they are not free from the law of sin or death yet… they remain bound by tradition while some out of convenience go only on Sunday as work and family take precedent.

"Believe not every spirit (soul-person), but try the spirits to see whether they (really) are of God–because many false prophets are gone out into the world (I John 4:1). So, how are you going to recognize them? By their fruits or results (Matthew 7:15-20)! And some will be made plain by the teachings that they try to promote (Colossians 2:9, 18-19; I Thessalonians 4:3-8; II Thessalonians 2:1-12; II Timothy 2:18; I John 4:2-6). So, seek Fellowship–but be cautious!

What are fruits, Good Works…nope. Jesus said, He is the Vine and we are the branches and the fruit we are accountable for is the unsaved. You will know my disciples by their fruit Jesus said…

God Bless you brother and those seeking in this forum.

 

[joessoft]

Posts like this that take up space, fail to remain on topic, and do not move the discussion forward are a violation of the forum rules. If you wish to continue participating, consider choosing a thread that has a topic relevant to what you wish to post, so you will not clutter up this one with irrelevant posts.

Thank you,

we will not be posting here again.

God Bless…

PS:
Sola Scriptura
Despite we should make “church” as people call it a daily part of our lives… some like to assert that the Sabbath is on Saturday, YET, we are told that Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath
(Luke 6:5)
and that HE moved the gathering time to the First Day of the Week
(Luke 24:1; John 20:19),
which was taken up and followed by the Apostles
(Acts 20:7; I Corinthians 16:1-2).

Thus, Sunday or the New Sabbath has become the day when Believers gather, most out of fear of “sinning” as they are not free from the law of sin or death yet… they remain bound by tradition while some out of convenience go only on Sunday as work and family take precedent.

 

[Des]

(Edited)

It’s not required any one go to “church” the bible says…

Hebrews 10:24-25 “And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

It said ‘And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some’.
Meaning some are in the habit of forsaking assembling together. It is actually telling the faithful not to do that. See how easily you just distorted the Word of God? (Edited)

This crew for the most part that types here are hung up on “traditions” and will until the day they die, unless God grants a miracle, will live to prove their theory is correct and to heck with the bible.

After reading this I’m certain you were a poorly catechized Catholic.

 

[joessoft]

(Edited)

It said 'And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some’.
Meaning some are in the habit of forsaking assembling together. It is actually telling the faithful not to do that. See how easily you just distorted the Word of God? (Edited)

After reading this I’m certain you were a poorly catechized Catholic.

Thank you… I appreciate your comments as they reflect what we state in several posts above.

Jesus had the same problem with the “Lay” of his day…

Pharisees

"Pharisees" belonged to a** lay movement** or party that defined righteousness as observing every detail of traditional rules designed to serve as a “hedge” or “fence” around the commandments. If one kept the traditions, he would not then transgress the law itself. The Pharisees were relatively small in number, but had great influence in First Century Judaism. They believed in angels and in the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age, in contrast to the Sadducees. As strict observers of the traditional, oral law they are somewhat akin to modern-day Hasidic Jews.
High Priests

High priests were powerful figures in First Century Jerusalem. The high priests (there were several in Jesus’ day who had short tenure) had a vested interested in the religious status quo, and probably gained financially from moneychanging and sales of sacrifices in the temple. Since in Jesus’ day the high priest was appointed by Herod, and served at the pleasure of the Roman Governor, the high priests were often closely aligned with Roman interests.
Sadducees

"Sadducees" were a group closely identified with the priestly aristocracy. They rejected the oral law or “traditions of the elders” held by the Pharisees, and held rather to the Torah itself. They denied the resurrection, and perhaps angels or spirits.

Most of Jesus’ conflicts were with the Pharisees rather than the Sadducees.

Jesus greatest opponent was not the greatest sinners of His day but the religious establishment.

Jesus agreed with much of their teaching, yet He also disagreed with much of their teaching, especially with the oral traditions, which laid a heavy burden upon the people. The leaders were like religious dictators and not spiritual guides. Jesus was not against their desire to keep the Law, for Jesus kept the Law of Moses. In fact, Jesus was the only Person who could ever completely keep the Law, since He was perfect and blameless. Jesus did not come to annul the Law, rather He came to fulfill the Law. Jesus internalized the Law. He concentrated on the inward condition of the heart, the attitude, and motivation, not on external practices and apparent outward conformity to the Law. He taught that the whole Law is to love God supremely and to love your neighbour as yourself (Matthew 7:12).

Although the majority of Pharisees hated Jesus and were hypocritical, there were a few who were sincere and who sought to know the truth, such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea (John 3; 7:50-53; 19: 38-42). There were likely many more who came to believe in Jesus and became an important part of the early church, like the Apostle Paul.

Why did the Religious leaders hate Jesus?

1. It was because of Jealousy. The Pharisees were considered authorities in religion, and all the people would listen to them teach, but now that Jesus had come on the scene, the people were flocking to Him and listening to Him teach about God, true righteousness, and holy living. They were jealous of Jesus’ popularity.
2. They were full of Anger toward Jesus. Much of Jesus’ teaching, such as in the Sermon on the Mount, was contrary to what the religious leaders taught the people, especially concerning the oral traditions, which were sayings of old, famous rabbis. These sayings had come to be considered as inspired and authoritative, but Jesus showed them to be erroneous and contrary to God. Six times He said the words, “you have heard that it was said . . . ,” and He goes on to say the very things that the religious leaders had taught, then He shows His authority over them, by saying, “but I say to you.” (Matthew 5:21-44). For example, in Jesus’ teaching about love, He said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies . . . " (Matthew 5:43-44). In other words, Jesus was openly saying to the crowds that what they had been taught by their religious leaders was wrong! Not only this, but Jesus also openly condemned their behaviour and hypocrisy. You can imagine how this would make the self-righteous men angry.
3. They were Prejudice. Jesus did not come from a family of rabbi’s, nor did He study under a famous rabbi. He wasn’t even from the religious centre of Jerusalem, rather, He was a common, poor, working class Galilean whom they did not think had the credentials, eloquence, or education to teach the Law. They probably even made fun of His Galilean accent. Jesus also sat and visited with people of whom the Pharisees did not approve, such as tax collectors and other “sinners.” The meaning of the word “Pharisee” is “separated”, since they separated themselves from people they considered to be unholy and sinful. Because of all these prejudices, the religious leaders thought Jesus had no right or authority to be a teacher. How wrong they were! Jesus alone is the all authoritative Word of God.
4. They hated Jesus because of their Disbelief in Him and His claims (John 12:37). This was the main reason for their hatred of Jesus. Jesus had clearly claimed to be the promised Messiah, the Son of God, and One with God, but their hearts were hard and cold and they did not believe Him. Many times they accused Him of blasphemy. Of course, again, they were wrong, for all of Jesus’ claims were true.

An especially strong denunciation of the Pharisees is recorded in Matthew chapter 23, when Jesus was in Jerusalem just a few days before His arrest and crucifixion. Surely Jesus’ strong words to them prompted them to act even faster to find a way to kill Him. Many times Jesus exclaimed, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” (vv. 13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29) and then He went on to describe the nature of their hypocrisy, exposing their inward sin and lawlessness (Matt.23:28). As Jesus said to them, “you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.” (Matthew 23:27). Jesus also likened them to a cup which is lovely and clean on the outside, but is disgustingly dirty inside, “full of extortion and self-indulgence” (Matthew 23:25).

Jesus taught that true righteousness comes from within and then it would be naturally reflected on the outside, but the Pharisees, were only concerned with outward appearances that would impress other people. They succeeded in impressing people, but they did not impress God. When Jesus exposed them and openly denounced and rebuked them, it would have come as a shock and an eye-opener to the general population who looked to the Pharisees for spiritual guidance. At the same time, it infuriated and embarrassed the self-righteous Pharisees. Jesus repeatedly called them “blind guides” (Matt. 23:16, 24, 26) since they were leading the people astray.

Some areas of conflict included the Sabbath observance, Temple worship, prayer, fasting, and purity. Jesus taught that to do good and show mercy is more important than observing external religious duties as He illustrated in the parable of the Good Samaritan. The religious Sadducee would not help the injured man lest he become ceremonially unclean. Jesus clearly showed how they were wrong. When Jesus cleansed the Temple, He spoke volumes against the religious establiment. Also, regarding the Sabbath, Jesus brought new and radical teachings. He taught that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and that He was the Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). The rules regarding the Sabbath that the religious leaders imposed upon the people were excruciating! They often accused Jesus and His disciples of breaking the Sabbath laws such as when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, but Jesus answered that it was right to do good and show mercy, especially on the Sabbath (Luke 6:9).

The Pharisees also accused His disciples of not keeping the traditions of ceremonial washing. Here again, Jesus called them hypocrites and denounced their strict observance of vain traditions, saying, “you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. . . . making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” (Mark 7:9, 13). Concerning ceremonial cleanliness and defilement, Jesus taught that it is “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man” (Mark 7:20).

Another conflict was regarding prayer. Jesus exposed the hypocritical Pharisees, who dressed in a certain pious way and prayed in a certain way so as to look righteous and be seen and approved of by men. They did the same thing with fasting. Jesus taught that it is not the long, repetitious prayers or the method or positions of prayer that matters to God; it is the heart-felt, sincere prayer that matters.

When Jesus spoke to these false religious leaders, it was true that He was angry with them for their sin, for God hates sin, but loves the sinner. Religion should reflect God’s love and mercy, but these leaders had corrupted the true worship of God. Jesus spoke to them with painful sorrow and shortly after His encounter with them, He wept over Jerusalem because of their disbelief, saying, “How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Matthew 23:37). The hardness of their heart’s and their spiritual blindness grieved our Lord Jesus.

The religious leaders had put many burdens on the people; many unnecessary burdens that had taken the joy out of serving God. Does your religion burden you? Has it become stale and stagnant? Are you merely going through the motions of religion? Do you lack joy in serving God? Do you want a personal relationship with your God? Jesus came to give us just that, and to bring us truth and joy and to lightened our burdens. He said, “Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30).

 

[des_scahill]

I did not mean to avoid anything. Sorry -
You are absolutely right though. All the denominational diferences do boil down to this single issue - Authority. And it is that basic issue that ultimately led me back to the Catholic Church.

I don’t mean to distract from the point you are making here, but just how do all these people derive their “personal loyalty to Christ”. Is it not from the Bible?
Doesn’t every person you speak of here accept the Bible as the innerrant and inspired Word of God? Yet by what authority can they know this? How can they Know that THIS book is really THE book.
Thus the question must be asked:
And How did they come by this Glorious Bible? Through the working of the Catholic Church at the end of the 4th Century and down through the all centuries to today.
This Authority - By which we KNOW that the Bible is True and Sacred is at the very heart of Christianity.
As for the various denominations getting along, and seeing “denominational differences” as secondary, what else can they do? I mean the foundation of the Protestant Reformation is a splitting from the Church and subsequent splitting of the splits. The acceptance of ALL Denominations is a simple and necessary tenet if they are going to accept ANY denomination apart from The One Church with the Fullness of Truth.

If one wishes to be a disciple of Christ, outside of the Bible, and outside the structures and commands of Christ in that bible, as well as ignoring the historical growth of the Church for the first 1000 years, then the idea what you say here might be true. However, if one wishes to bind oneself to Christ through the Gospels contained in the Holy Bible, then one must be ready to understand and defend:
The Authority of the bible,
The History of the Bible and the Books therin
The development of Christianity from Pentacost to today - including the writings of various Church leaders in the first centuries, before the “Bible” was compiled and canonized.

For the Catholic it is simple.
The Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God.
We know this because we know where it came from and how it got here.
We know that “The Church” Precedes The Bible and that Christ Gave His Authority to the Church.
WE Know this because the Bible tells us that He did.

God the Father Gave us His Son Jesus the Christ
Jesus the Christ Gave us His One Church, Protected by Him and Guided by the Holy Spirit.
Christ’s One Church, as authorized in the Gospels (and there was only one at the time), working in council and under the guidance of The Holy Spirit, gave us the Holy Bible as it exists today.

The Bible is subject to the Church just as the Church is subject to Chirst. Therefore the Chain of Authority is established without any breaks or weak links.

Personally I will condemn no one for whichever faith path they are on. Only God has that right. But when it comes to discussing “Authority” for Scripture, I have yet to see any group that can match pedigree or track record of the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit working through the offices of the magisterium.

Hope this answers your question better.

Peace
James

Where in all of this is there any reference to the living Holy Spirit as a source of authority?

Because we are dealing with ‘spiritual’ things, not all matters are going to fit comfortably within anyones humanly conceived intellectual framework no matter how hard we might try.

Is there an official catholic position on what protestants refer to as the ‘inner witness’ of the Holy Spirit to individual believers ( which is a shorthand Protestant church jargon reference to the whole of Romans Chapter 8 plus other scriptures relating to the indwelling holy spirit within believers).

God bless

Des

 

[yuslee]

Why are there thousands of Independent Protestant communities each with a different interpretation of one part of the Bible or another? Where do they go for the final and true interpretation?

This is always the question in my mind.
This unanswerable question makes me believe in the ONE HOLY AND APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH!

 

[KathleenElsie]

Still no chapter and verse that says the Bible alone is “the way”.

He is The Way, and He is The Word that became flesh and lived among us. Catholics believe this. Christ lives on in our traditions as well as the Bible.

So I assume you will state I am leaving with tail between legs because I only stand on The Bible that I believe is the ONLY source man needs to know the Past, Present and Future of how we became, when Jesus came, Dies then rose again, and how in the final chapter Jesus is returning. So be it.

I also believe there are fields of soul who need to hear the Good News… the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few… and debates like this to “prove” ones right and all else see through broken bifocals takes away from our main mission… Reach the Lost.

In Titus Chapter 3 we are admonished to:

“Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile.” With the thousands of interpretations in the independent communities out there this is good advice. In the universal Catholic Church it is not person interpretation but the universal Catholic one.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2) so that I could have the privilege of working in the fields… Yep isn’t it wonderful to see that God is in us when we do his work. But it does not mention Sola Scriptura which is the title of this thread.

Turn to NO ONE BUT Jesus today. He will, by His Spirit, show you the way. No proselytizing please.

God Bless and I hope I see y’all on the other side. As I pray for you also.

((g))

 

[KathleenElsie]

Thank you,

we will not be posting here again.

God Bless…

PS:
Sola Scriptura
Despite we should make “church” as people call it a daily part of our lives… some like to assert that the Sabbath is on Saturday, YET, we are told that Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath
(Luke 6:5)
and that HE moved the gathering time to the First Day of the Week
(Luke 24:1; John 20:19),
which was taken up and followed by the Apostles
(Acts 20:7; I Corinthians 16:1-2).

Thus, Sunday or the New Sabbath has become the day when Believers gather, most out of fear of “sinning” as they are not free from the law of sin or death yet… they remain bound by tradition while some out of convenience go only on Sunday as work and family take precedent.

WE?

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is always the question in my mind.
This unanswerable question makes me believe in the ONE HOLY AND APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH!

AMEN and AMEN

 

[des_scahill]

Sorry James, I realised I hadn’t addressed your questions below:

don’t mean to distract from the point you are making here, but just how do all these people derive their “personal loyalty to Christ”. Is it not from the Bible?
Doesn’t every person you speak of here accept the Bible as the innerrant and inspired Word of God? Yet by what authority can they know this? How can they Know that THIS book is really THE book.

What you’ve done in your argument above is first to restrict the derivation of personal loyalty to Christ solely to sacred scripture. (that of course leaves no room for any supernatural spiritual elements so far as an individual believer is concerned) and then proceed from that definition…

What we are really talking about here is the individual’s degree of personal discipleship to Christ.

The underlying motivations for a high degree of personal discipleship/commitment can and sometimes do extend beyond ‘what is written’ and embrace subjective experience. And I’m not talking here about subjective experiences that re-interpret or redefine doctrinal truths.

If you’ve been miraculously delivered from extremely dangerous situations as a missionary, your scriptural ‘head knowledge’ starts having an new and very real personal heartfelt dimension to it.

You (quite subjectively) know full well that only an act of God has saved your life, so that tends to increase your personal ‘loyalty’ level a notch or two. Not always of course, but sometimes.

Even at other levels of discipleship, if when you pray, those prayers seem to get answered, then over time you may find within yourself a very real but totally subjective sense of a personal ‘trust’ in Christ that never conflicts with your existing. theological foundations, but does deepen your personal commitment to Christ.

Now, if prayers don’t get answered then rather than ‘give-up’, a ‘disciple’ may well start examining the sacred writings privately at home during the week as his time and circumstances permit, to see if these can help his understanding of why some of his prayers get answered and some don’t. Maybe talk to his pastor or priest and other believers whom he perceives as being more mature than he himself is. If you exhaust all the obvious earthly alternatives available to you and get no-where, you can always pray a bit more and ask God Himself to help you understand.

Would following such a process leave him open to an accusation of ‘private interpretation’ by Roman Catholics? I mean, what ‘authority’ has he got to even decide on such a process to follow in the first place, other than a very subjective desire to increase his understanding of God.

It seems overly restrictive to me, to tightly define the basis for a disciples personal loyalty and commitment to Christ as being restricted solely to sacred writings , then use that definition to arrive at a foregone conclusion.

It completely leaves out of the picture the personal impact of supernatural interventions by God in their daily life that the individual may have experienced.

There are certainly a number of these described in Acts.

Chapter 5 has the story of Ananias and his wife Sapphira. If I ever encountered a similar but not necessarily identical situation in a church service today, I’d be inclined to take it as a solid and very ‘authorative’ indication from God that I needed to get my personal discipleship act together real fast.

But according to your definition of an ‘acceptable’ basis for deriving ‘personal loyalty’ to Christ I’d be completely out of line to let such an event influence the depth of any existing personal commitment I might have.

I know thats an overly dramatic example, I’m just using it to illustrate my point that Acts of God both small and large can be a factor in forming and deepening our ‘personal loyalty’ to Christ.

Blessings

Des

.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
I did not mean to avoid anything. Sorry -
You are absolutely right though. All the denominational diferences do boil down to this single issue - Authority. And it is that basic issue that ultimately led me back to the Catholic Church.

I bolded a section above that does deal with the Holy Spirit as the Authority and Guide of the Church.

Because we are dealing with ‘spiritual’ things, not all matters are going to fit comfortably within anyones humanly conceived intellectual framework no matter how hard we might try.

Very true. The best we can do is try to achieve the most comfortable understanding we can using whatever intellectual gifts God has given to us. Beyond that it is best that we leave it in God’s hands.

Is there an official catholic position on what protestants refer to as the ‘inner witness’ of the Holy Spirit to individual believers ( which is a shorthand Protestant church jargon reference to the whole of Romans Chapter 8 plus other scriptures relating to the indwelling holy spirit within believers).

I apologize that I do not have time to review Romans this morning and make comment.
I believe the best course for any of us in discerning the Churches position on a given matter is to begin by reviewing the catechism. There is a wonderful site here that I use often. It allows for searching by keywords.
For my own understanding of this:
The Holy Spirit dwells, and is active, in every true believer. Of course so does the unholy spirit. (like the “good” angel and “bad angel” on a cartoon character’s shoulder whispering in his ears)
We do our best to follow the True and Rightious Holy Spirit, but it is not always easy to know when it is really the holy spirit and not the unholy spirit that is tempting us through deceit. This is where the Church, containing the fullness of Truth, and the Sum total of 2000 years of the Holy Spirit working through her, comes in.
When we have questions of what is right or wrong, we can go, not only to the bible, but to the very source of God’s power on earth - The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Remember that Jesus did not tell the brethren to take disputes to “Scripture”, but to take it to “The Church”, (See Mt 18 : 15-18.)
By taking it to the Church and submitting, not to our own judgement, but to the collective judgement of the Authority Christ Himself set over us, we are binding ourselves more fully to Him and, through this binding, we are strengthening the Holy Spirit within us in unity with all Holy believers.

By Submitting our personal will to that of the Church we are obeying Jesus command to His Jewish listeners in Mt 23 : 1-3 to submit to those in authority. Jesus commands that they follow what the Jewish leaders tell them to do for they sit on the seat of Moses, that is they have that power from God.
Now, having said all of this, we are faced with our “conscience”. The Catechism deals with this as well. (2000 years experience remember) Type conscience into the seach engine at the site above and you will see that the Church recognizes the need and value of the conscience in faith formation. We are to do nothing against our “Conscience”. What we should do is study so that we have a properly formed conscience. (the catechism explains it better than I can).

God bless

Des

God’s Blessings on you as well my friend.

Peace
James

 

[Des]

Thank you… I appreciate your comments as they reflect what we state in several posts above.

Jesus had the same problem with the “Lay” of his day…

Pharisees

"Pharisees" belonged to a** lay movement** or party that defined righteousness as observing every detail of traditional rules designed to serve as a “hedge” or “fence” around the commandments. If one kept the traditions, he would not then transgress the law itself. The Pharisees were relatively small in number, but had great influence in First Century Judaism. They believed in angels and in the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age, in contrast to the Sadducees. As strict observers of the traditional, oral law they are somewhat akin to modern-day Hasidic Jews.
High Priests

High priests were powerful figures in First Century Jerusalem. The high priests (there were several in Jesus’ day who had short tenure) had a vested interested in the religious status quo, and probably gained financially from moneychanging and sales of sacrifices in the temple. Since in Jesus’ day the high priest was appointed by Herod, and served at the pleasure of the Roman Governor, the high priests were often closely aligned with Roman interests.
Sadducees

"Sadducees" were a group closely identified with the priestly aristocracy. They rejected the oral law or “traditions of the elders” held by the Pharisees, and held rather to the Torah itself. They denied the resurrection, and perhaps angels or spirits.

Most of Jesus’ conflicts were with the Pharisees rather than the Sadducees.

Jesus greatest opponent was not the greatest sinners of His day but the religious establishment.

Jesus agreed with much of their teaching, yet He also disagreed with much of their teaching, especially with the oral traditions, which laid a heavy burden upon the people. The leaders were like religious dictators and not spiritual guides. Jesus was not against their desire to keep the Law, for Jesus kept the Law of Moses. In fact, Jesus was the only Person who could ever completely keep the Law, since He was perfect and blameless. Jesus did not come to annul the Law, rather He came to fulfill the Law. Jesus internalized the Law. He concentrated on the inward condition of the heart, the attitude, and motivation, not on external practices and apparent outward conformity to the Law. He taught that the whole Law is to love God supremely and to love your neighbour as yourself (Matthew 7:12).

Although the majority of Pharisees hated Jesus and were hypocritical, there were a few who were sincere and who sought to know the truth, such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea (John 3; 7:50-53; 19: 38-42). There were likely many more who came to believe in Jesus and became an important part of the early church, like the Apostle Paul.

Why did the Religious leaders hate Jesus?

1. It was because of Jealousy. The Pharisees were considered authorities in religion, and all the people would listen to them teach, but now that Jesus had come on the scene, the people were flocking to Him and listening to Him teach about God, true righteousness, and holy living. They were jealous of Jesus’ popularity.
2. They were full of Anger toward Jesus. Much of Jesus’ teaching, such as in the Sermon on the Mount, was contrary to what the religious leaders taught the people, especially concerning the oral traditions, which were sayings of old, famous rabbis. These sayings had come to be considered as inspired and authoritative, but Jesus showed them to be erroneous and contrary to God. Six times He said the words, “you have heard that it was said . . . ,” and He goes on to say the very things that the religious leaders had taught, then He shows His authority over them, by saying, “but I say to you.” (Matthew 5:21-44). For example, in Jesus’ teaching about love, He said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies . . . " (Matthew 5:43-44). In other words, Jesus was openly saying to the crowds that what they had been taught by their religious leaders was wrong! Not only this, but Jesus also openly condemned their behaviour and hypocrisy. You can imagine how this would make the self-righteous men angry.
3. They were Prejudice. Jesus did not come from a family of rabbi’s, nor did He study under a famous rabbi. He wasn’t even from the religious centre of Jerusalem, rather, He was a common, poor, working class Galilean whom they did not think had the credentials, eloquence, or education to teach the Law. They probably even made fun of His Galilean accent. Jesus also sat and visited with people of whom the Pharisees did not approve, such as tax collectors and other “sinners.” The meaning of the word “Pharisee” is “separated”, since they separated themselves from people they considered to be unholy and sinful. Because of all these prejudices, the religious leaders thought Jesus had no right or authority to be a teacher. How wrong they were! Jesus alone is the all authoritative Word of God.
4. They hated Jesus because of their Disbelief in Him and His claims (John 12:37). This was the main reason for their hatred of Jesus. Jesus had clearly claimed to be the promised Messiah, the Son of God, and One with God, but their hearts were hard and cold and they did not believe Him. Many times they accused Him of blasphemy. Of course, again, they were wrong, for all of Jesus’ claims were true.

An especially strong denunciation of the Pharisees is recorded in Matthew chapter 23, when Jesus was in Jerusalem just a few days before His arrest and crucifixion. Surely Jesus’ strong words to them prompted them to act even faster to find a way to kill Him. Many times Jesus exclaimed, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” (vv. 13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29) and then He went on to describe the nature of their hypocrisy, exposing their inward sin and lawlessness (Matt.23:28). As Jesus said to them, “you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.” (Matthew 23:27). Jesus also likened them to a cup which is lovely and clean on the outside, but is disgustingly dirty inside, “full of extortion and self-indulgence” (Matthew 23:25).

Jesus taught that true righteousness comes from within and then it would be naturally reflected on the outside, but the Pharisees, were only concerned with outward appearances that would impress other people. They succeeded in impressing people, but they did not impress God. When Jesus exposed them and openly denounced and rebuked them, it would have come as a shock and an eye-opener to the general population who looked to the Pharisees for spiritual guidance. At the same time, it infuriated and embarrassed the self-righteous Pharisees. Jesus repeatedly called them “blind guides” (Matt. 23:16, 24, 26) since they were leading the people astray.

Some areas of conflict included the Sabbath observance, Temple worship, prayer, fasting, and purity. Jesus taught that to do good and show mercy is more important than observing external religious duties as He illustrated in the parable of the Good Samaritan. The religious Sadducee would not help the injured man lest he become ceremonially unclean. Jesus clearly showed how they were wrong. When Jesus cleansed the Temple, He spoke volumes against the religious establiment. Also, regarding the Sabbath, Jesus brought new and radical teachings. He taught that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath and that He was the Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). The rules regarding the Sabbath that the religious leaders imposed upon the people were excruciating! They often accused Jesus and His disciples of breaking the Sabbath laws such as when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, but Jesus answered that it was right to do good and show mercy, especially on the Sabbath (Luke 6:9).

The Pharisees also accused His disciples of not keeping the traditions of ceremonial washing. Here again, Jesus called them hypocrites and denounced their strict observance of vain traditions, saying, “you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. . . . making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” (Mark 7:9, 13). Concerning ceremonial cleanliness and defilement, Jesus taught that it is “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man” (Mark 7:20).

Another conflict was regarding prayer. Jesus exposed the hypocritical Pharisees, who dressed in a certain pious way and prayed in a certain way so as to look righteous and be seen and approved of by men. They did the same thing with fasting. Jesus taught that it is not the long, repetitious prayers or the method or positions of prayer that matters to God; it is the heart-felt, sincere prayer that matters.

When Jesus spoke to these false religious leaders, it was true that He was angry with them for their sin, for God hates sin, but loves the sinner. Religion should reflect God’s love and mercy, but these leaders had corrupted the true worship of God. Jesus spoke to them with painful sorrow and shortly after His encounter with them, He wept over Jerusalem because of their disbelief, saying, “How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Matthew 23:37). The hardness of their heart’s and their spiritual blindness grieved our Lord Jesus.

The religious leaders had put many burdens on the people; many unnecessary burdens that had taken the joy out of serving God. Does your religion burden you? Has it become stale and stagnant? Are you merely going through the motions of religion? Do you lack joy in serving God? Do you want a personal relationship with your God? Jesus came to give us just that, and to bring us truth and joy and to lightened our burdens. He said, “Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30).

joessoft, I’ve been warned about being uncharitable so I say this nicely in that you really should be leaving the links to which you are copying your information as that is copyright infringement.

Does your religion burden you?

May I ask what burdens you feel the Catholic religion is holding against us?

 

[JRKH]

Sorry James, I realised I hadn’t addressed your questions below:

don’t mean to distract from the point you are making here, but just how do all these people derive their “personal loyalty to Christ”. Is it not from the Bible?Doesn’t every person you speak of here accept the Bible as the inerrant and inspired Word of God? Yet by what authority can they know this? How can they Know that THIS book is really THE book.

You are perfectly right here. My statement was based upon the most common way in which people come to know Christ and work to develop their knowledge and relationship with Him. I did not mean to limit anyone so I apologize if I left that impression.

What we are really talking about here is the individual’s degree of personal discipleship to Christ.

The underlying motivations for a high degree of personal discipleship/commitment can and sometimes do extend beyond ‘what is written’ and embrace subjective experience. And I’m not talking here about subjective experiences that re-interpret or redefine doctrinal truths.

Well Put. I agree wholeheartedly with this.

If you’ve been miraculously delivered from extremely dangerous situations as a missionary, your scriptural ‘head knowledge’ starts having an new and very real personal heartfelt dimension to it.
You (quite subjectively) know full well that only an act of God has saved your life, so that tends to increase your personal ‘loyalty’ level a notch or two. Not always of course, but sometimes.
Even at other levels of discipleship, if when you pray, those prayers seem to get answered, then over time you may find within yourself a very real but totally subjective sense of a personal ‘trust’ in Christ that never conflicts with your existing. theological foundations, but does deepen your personal commitment to Christ.

This can be true in many ways and events, with the bottom line being that we continually learn to lean more and more on our dear Lord.

Now, if prayers don’t get answered then rather than ‘give-up’, a ‘disciple’ may well start examining the sacred writings privately at home during the week as his time and circumstances permit, to see if these can help his understanding of why some of his prayers get answered and some don’t. Maybe talk to his pastor or priest and other believers whom he perceives as being more mature than he himself is. If you exhaust all the obvious earthly alternatives available to you and get no-where, you can always pray a bit more and ask God Himself to help you understand.

Would following such a process leave him open to an accusation of ‘private interpretation’ by Roman Catholics? I mean, what ‘authority’ has he got to even decide on such a process to follow in the first place, other than a very subjective desire to increase his understanding of God.

No. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Church recognizes and paramount importance of the “conscience” in spiritual development. In the circumstance above the person is showing a clear desire to understand God’s Will. Not for his own glorification, but rather to make himself a better disciple.
The example that you give above is a good one that I think most everyone goes through at some time or another.

It seems overly restrictive to me, to tightly define the basis for a disciples personal loyalty and commitment to Christ as being restricted solely to sacred writings , then use that definition to arrive at a foregone conclusion.

The Church couldn’t agree with you more. When people try to restrict God to some written text, they automatically limit their ability to understand Him. Look at all the learned men in Jerusalem who interpreted “Scripture” wrong. That is why Jesus founded a Church upon Men and upon the Holy Spirit and not on a “Book”

It completely leaves out of the picture the personal impact of supernatural interventions by God in their daily life that the individual may have experienced.

There are certainly a number of these described in Acts.

Chapter 5 has the story of Ananias and his wife Sapphira. If I ever encountered a similar but not necessarily identical situation in a church service today, I’d be inclined to take it as a solid and very ‘authorative’ indication from God that I needed to get my personal discipleship act together real fast.

But according to your definition of an ‘acceptable’ basis for deriving ‘personal loyalty’ to Christ I’d be completely out of line to let such an event influence the depth of any existing personal commitment I might have.

I know that’s an overly dramatic example, I’m just using it to illustrate my point that Acts of God both small and large can be a factor in forming and deepening our ‘personal loyalty’ to Christ.

I guess that somehow or other we are not understanding each other. I do not try to limit God to the Bible or anything else. There are others here who try to declare that the Bible reigns supreme and I try to explain that this is putting the cart before the horse. That Christ founded a new covenant – a Church – upon People, imperfect but Holy and dedicated people. He promised that Church and us His Spirit and His protection.
Men within the Church, Guided by the Spirit, bound together the Book called the Bible as a part of the fullness of the faith. Others took that book and ripped it from it’s foundation, changed it and tried to put it in the place of the church and the authority that Christ gave to the Church.

Blessings

Des

God Bless and Keep you

Peace
James

 

[justasking4]

Why are there thousands of Independent Protestant communities each with a different interpretation of one part of the Bible or another? Where do they go for the final and true interpretation?

That’s a good question. It also applies to the Catholic church. Do you know that the Catholic has offically interpreted less than 20 verses of the Scriptures? This means that Catholics are in the same position as protestants on this issue.

Where do you go to get the final and true interpretation of a specific passage of Scripture?

 

[joessoft]

joessoft, I’ve been warned about being uncharitable so I say this nicely in that you really should be leaving the links to which you are copying your information as that is copyright infringement.

May I ask what burdens you feel the Catholic religion is holding against us?

Let me get down to basics… I’d give my testimony… where I came from, how I met Christ, but you’d urinate on it

You sound like your off topic bubba… or does that only apply to factual responses. I head nothing about “The Sabbath” snafu that was reeking the minds of the “in crowd” and specially annointed crew here… despite biblical authority for…

and finally, I am NOT a people pleaser… you can try to be. Jesus was NOT a people pleaser and told the wannabe control freaq’s of his day where to go… despite the fact He loves them and is not willing that any should perish.

On you Threat of being uncharitable… as my friend Green Beret Don Bendell ( donbendell.com ) say:

A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do… you want me in the flesh, you got me… I am saved, not perfected and can revert to a place once you make the trip you’d cry for your mommy…

Now get a life and do not respond to any of my drivel - drivel in your mind… and if the owners of this place want to delete the posts we have made - go for it… small minds small… oh well…

Get a life

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[jb80]

I hate jumping into the middle of a long conversation like this (16 pages is probably actually past the middle), but I just had to add my 2 cents worth.

This topic has been a very interesting read, but one problem I’ve seen that hasn’t been mentioned (and if it has I apologize) is a lot of these verses mention the “Word of God”. And these verses have been used to mean Scripture only. My question is why does “Word of God” only refer to the Written Word? Are we trying to fit God’s entire Word into what’s between 2 covers? Of course not, and I don’t think anyone would especially since the Bible doesn’t do this. The Word of God isn’t lmited to what we read as we see in Romans 10:17:

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

As Paul says, faith doesn’t just come by reading the Word of God, it comes from “hearing” the Word.

Also, I find it really interesting that John starts out his Gospel by informing us that Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh.

John 1:1, 14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

But then, interestingly enough, John ends his Gospel by telling us that everything Jesus (The Word) did isn’t recorded in his letter (which even more interestingly, contains things the other Gospel’s don’t).

John 21:25

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

So if everything the Word did isn’t recorded in The Bible, why are we trying to limit the Word of God to just the Bible?

Once again, sorry for jumping in. Just some food for thought

God Bless!

 

[JRKH]

I hate jumping into the middle of a long conversation like this (16 pages is probably actually past the middle), but I just had to add my 2 cents worth.

This topic has been a very interesting read, but one problem I’ve seen that hasn’t been mentioned (and if it has I apologize) is a lot of these verses mention the “Word of God”. And these verses have been used to mean Scripture only. My question is why does “Word of God” only refer to the Written Word? Are we trying to fit God’s entire Word into what’s between 2 covers? Of course not, and I don’t think anyone would especially since the Bible doesn’t do this. The Word of God isn’t lmited to what we read as we see in Romans 10:17:

As Paul says, faith doesn’t just come by reading the Word of God, it comes from “hearing” the Word.

Also, I find it really interesting that John starts out his Gospel by informing us that Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh.

John 1:1, 14

But then, interestingly enough, John ends his Gospel by telling us that everything Jesus (The Word) did isn’t recorded in his letter (which even more interestingly, contains things the other Gospel’s don’t).

John 21:25

So if everything the Word did isn’t recorded in The Bible, why are we trying to limit the Word of God to just the Bible?

Once again, sorry for jumping in. Just some food for thought

God Bless!

No need to apologize - Jump in with what you have on the topic.
You have hit on one of the central problems with SS. The tendency to try to confine God, as you say, between the covers of a book.
Jesus, The Word, can never be defined, or contained within the limited languages of humans. That is why He preached to, founded The Church upon, and sent forth into the world, a group of Men to establish the Kingdom of God. He did not write a book, but rather promised a Spirit to Lead us to all Truth.
Too many people talk of the Bible and The Word that is Jesus as if they are interchangable. It is a common and sad mistake.

Peace
James