Protestants do not really believe in Sola Scriptura

[des_scahill]

Perhaps so, but the same cannot be said for me.

Answer this then: Is your particular faith community one that preaches the “entry level” prayer “accepting Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior”?:

Can you give me an example of an entry level prayer? I think I know what you getting at, but lets be sure.

So far as preaching from the pulpit is concerned, our ‘altar call’ to use yet another bit of church jargon, is given at the end of the sermon and is just an invitation to come and ask us some more questions if you want to find out more about what we believe in.

Sermons tend mostly to be along the lines of - our pastor will tell us in advance that for the next 4 weeks he will be preaching from (say) Chapter 3 of Colossians, and the sermons will be more towards “what is being said in this chapter, and how do we apply this in our daily life in the 21st century”,

 

[KathleenElsie]

Can you give me an example of an entry level prayer? I think I know what you getting at, but lets be sure.

So far as preaching from the pulpit is concerned, our ‘altar call’ to use yet another bit of church jargon, is given at the end of the sermon and is just an invitation to come and ask us some more questions if you want to find out more about what we believe in.

Sermons tend mostly to be along the lines of - our pastor will tell us in advance that for the next 4 weeks he will be preaching from (say) Chapter 3 of Colossians, and the sermons will be more towards “what is being said in this chapter, and how do we apply this in our daily life in the 21st century”,

I believe it is called the “sinners prayer” and is used at the altar call. The times I have seen and heard it done was after the crowd became frenzied and people were quite emotional. This is the reason I believe that the Catholic Church has it correct in that they teach what they truly believe in RCIA and then bring those that believe into the fold (it is not based on human emotion of the moment)

 

[Church_Militant]

Can you give me an example of an entry level prayer? I think I know what you getting at, but lets be sure.

You are probably right.

Examples from the “intarweb”:

Can you genuinely say a prayer like the following? If you are sincere, God will immediately save you and give you everlasting life.

A guide to what to pray:

“Dear Father in Heaven, I realize that I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins [wrongdoings]. I am willing to turn from my sins and lead the life you want me to lead. I now ask Jesus Christ to come into my heart and I receive Him into my life as my personal Savior. I am willing, by God's grace, to follow and obey Christ as the Lord of my life.”

and then

Yes, I want to get saved!

If you arrived at this screen it means that you clicked yes are ready to get saved. We invite you to confirm your beliefs by praying the following prayer. You can pray out loud or silently in your heart to God:

“Dear God, I admit that I have sinned against you. I believe Jesus died and rose again from the dead to pay the penalty for my sins. With this prayer, I receive Jesus as my Savior and my Lord.  Please forgive me of all my sins in His name.  Thank you God for cleansing me of all my sin and giving me a brand new life, peace and eternal life through Messiah Jesus.  Please help me to live my life for you and to be faithful in learning to trust you and love you more each day.  Amen.

and then there’s

IF YOU WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN, PLEASE PRAY THIS PRAYER OF REPENTANCE

Dear Lord,
I know I have sinned and done wrong.
I am willing to turn away from those sins and do whatever you ask me to do.
I know that you died on the cross for me and I know that you were raised from the dead.
I ask you to come into my life today and take control.
Please forgive me of my sins and help me turn completely toward you.
I receive you as my Lord and Savior right now.
If I died today, I know I would go to heaven to be with you.
In Jesus' name,
Amen

Now, I appreciate that some of these say, “a prayer like this…”, but Des, you and I both know that there’s only one “sinner’s prayer” in the New Testament and it’s in Luke 18:13, where it says, “O God, be merciful to me a sinner.”

You can correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think that Our Lord or the apostles are recorded in the New Testament with any specific formulaic prayer like anything we see so often used today.

My thinking is that these things are more for the assurance of the “witness”, than for the person coming to Christ.

So far as preaching from the pulpit is concerned, our ‘altar call’ to use yet another bit of church jargon, is given at the end of the sermon and is just an invitation to come and ask us some more questions if you want to find out more about what we believe in.

A very good point. Thank you. This “altar call” thing also seems to be a modern invention that has become something of a tradition. I can see a modern formulaic development, and in some ways I can see a similarity to what we see from St. John the Baptist and the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

Still, is that “sinner’s prayer” included in that counseling to those who respond?

Sermons tend mostly to be along the lines of - our pastor will tell us in advance that for the next 4 weeks he will be preaching from (say) Chapter 3 of Colossians, and the sermons will be more towards “what is being said in this chapter, and how do we apply this in our daily life in the 21st century”,

Works pretty well for me.

This of course ties in directly with the n-C doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Actually though, there are so many varied definitions of what n-Cs mean by SS that it makes it hard to discuss.

 

[des_scahill]

I believe it is called the “sinners prayer” and is used at the altar call. The times I have seen and heard it done was after the crowd became frenzied and people were quite emotional. This is the reason I believe that the Catholic Church has it correct in that they teach what they truly believe in RCIA and then bring those that believe into the fold (it is not based on human emotion of the moment)

I know what you mean Kathleen, and I can assure you that I too cringe at some of the things I see.

Myabe if I talk non-theologically from a moment, it might be helpfull.

These are my own words, I’m not speaking on behalf of every single Protestant… by and large we see ‘discipleship’ as being a personal journey by the individual believer, which can lead them to all sorts of different ways of serving God.

But we also see a ‘disciple’ as falling somewhere along a spectrum. There’s 'baby’disciples at one end, and ‘pensioner’ disciples.at the other. As each of us travels along that spectrum we are continually challenged.
Its a battle on a number of fronts. We’ve got the world around us, spiritual enemies, false teachers feeding us what at times can be very subtle untruths which are a precursor to more overt approaches, We’ve our own 'old nature; refusing to acknowledge its been killed off.

And we’ve got God searching our hearts, trying our reins, to see if we still REALLY DO mean in our hearts what we say.we do. He confronts us continually with all sorts of little moral tests in our daily life, some of them quite insignificant on the surface but replete with implications.concerning the true state of our heart.

Perhaps my whole concept and experience of God is wrong. But it seems to me, that subject to always remaining true to his own nature, God will bend over backward to get you into heaven, and doesn’t really seem to focus much on creatively finding new ways to keep you out.

In fact I wonder whether He attaches that much importance to such things as whether or not I use unleavened bread when taking communion, or kneel rather than stand, but looks instead on the REAL motives in my heart for doing whatever it is I do.

So perhaps a ‘baby’ disciple can believe what others might see as 'bad"; theology here and there, but he’s still a ‘disciple’. And some disciples may remain a ‘baby’ for a very long time. Have you been a christian for fourty years? or have you been a christian for six months and repeated your experience 80 times.?

 

[larry_m]

Thankyou Guanophore for your Having the Spirit of our Savior by correcting our brother in his scathing words. May you always be open to the Spirits direction in such matters. It doesn’t matter if we have all truth. If we don’t convey it in the love of our Savior, we need to keep quiet. Lift each other up in our Savior. Thanks my brother.

 

[Nita]

But it seems to me, that subject to always remaining true to his own nature, God will bend over backward to get you into heaven, and doesn’t really seem to focus much on creatively finding new ways to keep you out.

In fact I wonder whether He attaches that much importance to such things as whether or not I use unleavened bread when taking communion, or kneel rather than stand, but looks instead on the REAL motives in my heart for doing whatever it is I do.

It’s our obedience (to those in legitimate authority) that God looks at.

It was disobedience that caused the fall; it required Our Lord’s obedience, even unto death, to make reparation for it. Obedience is very important to God. It’s interesting to do a word search on that topic (obey/disobey; obedience/disobedience).

Nita

 

[larry_m]

To Nita. It was disobedience to the Creator, not the church, that caused the fall. I would rather do what Peter said to do,'We ought to OBEY God, rather than man". Acts 5:29. By the way, according to the Catholic Church, wasn’t Peter the first “pope”? Not only are you going against Scripture but the “pope”. Your brother in our Savior, LarryM.

 

[Nita]

To Nita. It was disobedience to the Creator, not the church, that caused the fall. I would rather do what Peter said to do,'We ought to OBEY God, rather than man". Acts 5:29

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Your sister in Christ,
Nita

 

[PerryJ]

To Nita. It was disobedience to the Creator, not the church, that caused the fall. I would rather do what Peter said to do,'We ought to OBEY God, rather than man". Acts 5:29. By the way, according to the Catholic Church, wasn’t Peter the first “pope”? Not only are you going against Scripture but the “pope”. Your brother in our Savior, LarryM.

That is the error of your thought. You believe the church, or least the Catholic Church, is man made. It is not. One has to ignore the Bible, teachings from people that lived with the apostles and a lot of historical evidence to not believe the Catholic Church is not based upon Christ. The evidence is overwhelming.

Yet it is refuted by Sola Scriptura; which, a scared superstitious man made up to support an unbibilical theory. Not one person can show that the Bible even believes in Sola Scriptura. Not one person can find in the Bible where it defines what books should be part of Sola Scriptura. So if it was true you do not even know which books to read. Sola Scriptura has no evidence of any kind to support it yet it supposedly supercedes the Church. A Church with volumes of theological and historical support. Amazing.

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

It’s our obedience (to those in legitimate authority) that God looks at.

It was disobedience that caused the fall; it required Our Lord’s obedience, even unto death, to make reparation for it. Obedience is very important to God. It’s interesting to do a word search on that topic (obey/disobey; obedience/disobedience).

Nita

On the topic of obedience, the Gospel reading at morning Mass on Sat Aug 30th was Matthew 23:1-12.

"Addressing the people and His disciples, Jesus said, “The Scribes and Pharisees occupy the chair of Moses. You must therefore do what they tell you and listen to what they say; but do not be guided by what they do, since they do not practice what they preach.”

This teaching of Jesus is NOT addressed to the Scribes and Pharisees, but to His Church of the New Covenant. It is an excellent example of what St Augustine of Hippo alluded to when he taught that "God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New. A Tradition built on the knowledge of Scripture.

The early Church Fathers clearly read this teaching, hidden in the Old Testament as a prototype for authority in the established Church. So as Peter was the first Pope and recognised as such for the authority clearly given to him by Jesus, the successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome were regarded as sitting on the Chair of Peter. This is why the Truths proclaimed by the Magisterium are given Ex-Cathedra. Cathedrals are so-called because they hold the traditional chair occupied by the Bishop in communion with the Bishop of Rome. In fact the whole hierarchical structure of the Church is based on the chair of Moses as advised by his father in law Jethro. Read Exodus 18:20-26. The book of numbers relates how seriously God dealt with Miriam and Aaron (ch12) then later in Ch 16, the rebellion of Korah. Moses laid hands on Joshua and so the succession of authority was passed on right down to the Scribes and Pharisees. In fact, a Feast day of The Chair of Peter has been celebrated by the Church since the fourth century.

The earliest reference I can find to the chair of Peter is given by St Cyprian…“but a primacy is given to Peter, wherby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair.”

 

[des_scahill]

It’s our obedience (to those in legitimate authority) that God looks at.
Nita

I’d agree with you that ‘obedience’ is certainly an indicator that a person is a christian, but its not the only one. What about the fruits of the Spirit for example? These should be present also, or at least show signs of developing eg. you see a persons attitudes and motivations changing over time as they move along the spectrum of discipleship…

You can have “obedience” by someone, when all the time their inner heart attitudes are completely opposed. Prisoners in a gaol will obey the wardens, not because they love them and want to follow them, but simply because they have to.

Some ‘christians’ will say and do all the "right’ things and appear christian on the outside, but that doesn’t mean they are a ‘true’ disciple simply because they ‘obey’. Hypocrisy can take many forms.

 

[Nita]

I’d agree with you that ‘obedience’ is certainly an indicator that a person is a christian, but its not the only one. What about the fruits of the Spirit for example? These should be present also, or at least show signs of developing eg. you see a persons attitudes and motivations changing over time as they move along the spectrum of discipleship…

Definitely we are called to grow in love of God and neighbor, to receive and develop the fruits of the Spirit. But all of that actually falls under the category of “obedience” - obedience to Our Lord’s teaching and other teachings contained in Scripture which the Church says we are to heed.

You can have “obedience” by someone, when all the time their inner heart attitudes are completely opposed. Prisoners in a gaol will obey the wardens, not because they love them and want to follow them, but simply because they have to.

It is however still a *wise *decision to obey if they wish not to suffer the punishment for disobedience!

Some ‘christians’ will say and do all the "right’ things and appear christian on the outside, but that doesn’t mean they are a ‘true’ disciple simply because they ‘obey’. Hypocrisy can take many forms.

Yes, it’s possible to do good things for the wrong motives. But I think people sometimes have a false understanding of what constitutes hypocrisy - they connect it too much with “feelings”. They think doing the right thing, when you really feel like doing the opposite, is hypocrisy. Actually, it can be just the opposite – it can be heroic virtue!

An example:
I believe it’s God’s will that I attend Mass on Sunday, my Church teaches that it is a grave responsibility, and I want to do God’s will and obey the commands of His Church. Now, when Sunday mornings come around, I don’t feel like getting up; I don’t feel like praying; etc… If I make myself get up and go anyway, that is not being a hypocrite. Hypocrisy has more to do with acting contrary to what we truly believe, and/or know, to be right/good/best – rather than acting contrary to what we feel like doing.

God bless,
Nita

 

[justasking4]

You are probably right.

Examples from the “intarweb”: and then and then there’s Now, I appreciate that some of these say, “a prayer like this…”, but Des, you and I both know that there’s only one “sinner’s prayer” in the New Testament and it’s in Luke 18:13, where it says, “O God, be merciful to me a sinner.”

You can correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think that Our Lord or the apostles are recorded in the New Testament with any specific formulaic prayer like anything we see so often used today.

My thinking is that these things are more for the assurance of the “witness”, than for the person coming to Christ.
A very good point. Thank you. This “altar call” thing also seems to be a modern invention that has become something of a tradition. I can see a modern formulaic development, and in some ways I can see a similarity to what we see from St. John the Baptist and the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

Still, is that “sinner’s prayer” included in that counseling to those who respond?Works pretty well for me.

This of course ties in directly with the n-C doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Actually though, there are so many varied definitions of what n-Cs mean by SS that it makes it hard to discuss.

Do you have a couple of examples of some of the defintions of Sola Scriptura?

Are there any churches that use your definitions? If so, who?

 

[justasking4]

That is the error of your thought. You believe the church, or least the Catholic Church, is man made. It is not. One has to ignore the Bible, teachings from people that lived with the apostles and a lot of historical evidence to not believe the Catholic Church is not based upon Christ. The evidence is overwhelming.

Yet it is refuted by Sola Scriptura; which, a scared superstitious man made up to support an unbibilical theory. Not one person can show that the Bible even believes in Sola Scriptura. Not one person can find in the Bible where it defines what books should be part of Sola Scriptura. So if it was true you do not even know which books to read. Sola Scriptura has no evidence of any kind to support it yet it supposedly supercedes the Church. A Church with volumes of theological and historical support. Amazing.

What is your defintion of Sola Scriptura that demands within the defintion itself what books should be in the Scriptures? What church or denomination states this kind of thing?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

justasking4: What do you think happened when Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive sins?

 

[distracted]

To Nita. It was disobedience to the Creator, not the church, that caused the fall…

disobedience to the Church (Catholic) IS disobedience to God… Why do you think he founded an earthly Church? So we could ignore it and follow Satan?

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is from Aug 21 and is post #32 out of the hundreds now in this thread. I just thought I would remind the posters that some on the 21st defined the term. A;so if you are willing to look there are many more definitions within this thread.

So then, which of the two definitions in that (mercifully brief) article would you (and Mr. Hodge) accept and endorse.Ya don’t suppose that you could possibly find something similar without all that anti-Catholic rhetoric do you?

Why is it you have to come to the discussion with such when I am sure that there has to be someone out there who actually makes their case without all the a-C garbage?

This is essentially just like I find in so many n-C messages. They can’t seem to simply present the Gospel of Christ without the compare and contrast. I’m grateful to God that I don’t go to Mass and here that kind of stuff. IMO, either a teaching stands or falls based on its own merits, and not what the guy across the street or anyone else believes and teaches.

I have actually read Hodge’s diatribe before and bookmarked it for later refutation if I can find the time.

A.A. Hodge. definitions if you can get through the anti Catholic rhetoric.

 

[KathleenElsie]

What is your defintion of Sola Scriptura that demands within the defintion itself what books should be in the Scriptures? What church or denomination states this kind of thing?

This has been defined so many times so many ways by Protestants that I am not sure even they know the what they mean.

 

[distracted]

justasking4: What do you think happened when Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive sins?

not much… Jesus was just playing around…

(You know i am kidding, right? I am Catholic )

 

[Mea_Culpa]

This is from Aug 21 and is post #32 out of the hundreds now in this thread. I just thought I would remind the posters that some on the 21st defined the term. A;so if you are willing to look there are many more definitions within this thread.

This thread is so long that this is probably the fourth or fifth group of sola scripturists to come in and try to defend it. Funny thing is, they all say the same things. None of them have been able to show where sola scriptura is taught in Holy Scripture, though.