Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[2nd_Adam]

So, I will end this post by quoting your words, “Each Person on the Spiritual journey must ‘work out their salvation with fear and trembling.’ They must, ‘Run the Good race’ and leave the rest to God.”

Thank you, kind friend,
Anna

Context is everything in handling the Word of God. The proper context is all of Scirpture revelation.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Phil 2:12-13

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. - Phil 1

 

[2nd_Adam]

Saul was out to destroy more Christians… and then what happened?

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. - Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

Since you have mentiored Baptist as well as Charles Spurgeon… I leave you wisdom from CH Spurgeon the Baptist: Please read his work in defense of Calvinism.

spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon

 

[JRKH]

James:

This is actually a very helpful and comforting response. I can see that from a Catholic perspective, this might be a futile discussion. Perhaps it is, James.

I started this Thread, because another Protestant insisted this idea of predestined salvation (outlined at Monergism.com) is rooted in the Protestant Reformation; and true Reformed Theology espouses predestined salvation of the elect.

On Monergism.com, there is a link to the ***1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith ***(“Particular Baptists.”)

I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches. Even though I have already left the Baptist Church, the roots in Monergism are very disturbing.

General Baptists and Particular Baptists disagreed on several key doctrines and predestination was one of them.

General Baptist were so named, because they believed in a general atonement----Christ died for all people; whoever believes in Christ could be saved—they emphasized the ability of humans to respond freely to God’s grace. They also believed it was possible for one to fall from grace or lose his salvation.

Particular Baptists appeared about a generation later than General Baptists. They believed in particular atonement----that Christ died only for a particular group, the elect—God plays a sovereign role in the salvation of the elect. John Calvin had a great influence on this group. They believed “once saved, always saved.”

The “predestination” issue is one of many, as I look at the cause and effect of the Protestant Reformation.

I suppose the main questions I am asking, as I study are: “What has the Protestant Reformation accomplished?” and “What are the repercussions of Protestantism at this point in history?”

I realize as I write this, that all of these differences and debates within Protestantism must appear, to Catholics, to be absolute chaos. At the moment, it feels like chaos.

I do envy the fact that your faith is settled. Some days, I feel like I am drowning in the “sea of Protestant voices.”

So, to make a long story, “somewhat” shorter, I think you make very insightful points.

So, I will end this post by quoting your words, “Each Person on the Spiritual journey must ‘work out their salvation with fear and trembling.’ They must, ‘Run the Good race’ and leave the rest to God.”

Thank you, kind friend,
Anna

Anna,
I am glad that my words were of comfort to you. I praise teh holy Spirit for giving them to me.

I can only suggest that you should come out of the “sea of Protestant voices”, at least as far as predestination is concerned.
Why should we concern yourself with such matters?
How does it effect our walk?
Would it Change how you Live?
To me, such things only serve to confuse and befuddle, just as you say above, for no real reason.

Christ was a pragmatist in the sense that He taught us HOW to respond to God. He taught us HOW to Pray and Gave us the Great commandments of Love. He told us to Repent, Believe, be Baptized and then go and DO things like Love our Neighbor.

Yes it is good in Catholicism to have such things settled. I thank God daily that I am Catholic. My House is built upon The Rock.

Peace
James

 

[2nd_Adam]

Anna,
I am glad that my words were of comfort to you. I praise teh holy Spirit for giving them to me.

I can only suggest that you should come out of the “sea of Protestant voices”, at least as far as predestination is concerned.
Why should we concern yourself with such matters?
How does it effect our walk?
Would it Change how you Live?
To me, such things only serve to confuse and befuddle, just as you say above, for no real reason.

Christ was a pragmatist in the sense that He taught us HOW to respond to God. He taught us HOW to Pray and Gave us the Great commandments of Love. He told us to Repent, Believe, be Baptized and then go and DO things like Love our Neighbor.

Yes it is good in Catholicism to have such things settled. I thank God daily that I am Catholic. My House is built upon The Rock.

Peace
James

Here is an answer to your questions above according to the Word of God. It is not safe nor wise to gloss over Scripture.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. - Paul

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. - Paul

But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

• Jesus the Christ

 

[Anna_Scott]

The best context on predestination is the entire Bible. However, here are several passages on predestination that I would appreciate your comment.

Context is very important, however, this is not the forum for a discussion of the entire Bible.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8-26-30

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Epheisans 1:3-14

2nd Adam:

I know there are many Scriptures that speak of predestined salvation of the elect. There are also passages, that tell us that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe him, as in John 6:64: But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

John 6:40 (ESV): 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:63-65: 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." **(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) **65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

In Romans 11, we find in referring to the Jews, “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?”

**Romans 11:13-16: ** 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

We also find in Romans 11:32: “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”

Romans 11:28-32: 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Adam, the point is, you and I could argue Scriptures all day and never come to an agreement. This is made clearly evident by the many beliefs in the Protestant Sector.

I have read the Bible cover-to-cover. That does not make me an authority. However, I can say that in considering the Bible as a whole, and the tradition of Christianity; I believe we are all created with “free will,” either to choose Christ or reject Christ. That does not diminish the call or work of the Holy Spirit. It simply means that it is very unlikely that we are all “puppets” created for God’s amusement.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
I am glad that my words were of comfort to you. I praise teh holy Spirit for giving them to me.

I can only suggest that you should come out of the “sea of Protestant voices”, at least as far as predestination is concerned.
Why should we concern yourself with such matters?
How does it effect our walk?
Would it Change how you Live?
To me, such things only serve to confuse and befuddle, just as you say above, for no real reason.

Christ was a pragmatist in the sense that He taught us HOW to respond to God. He taught us HOW to Pray and Gave us the Great commandments of Love. He told us to Repent, Believe, be Baptized and then go and DO things like Love our Neighbor.

Yes it is good in Catholicism to have such things settled. I thank God daily that I am Catholic. My House is built upon The Rock.

Peace
James

Thank you James. I appreciate your words so very much.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

that being said i will answer at least some of your questions.

are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?

 

[mmmcounts]

So, my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Sector, what do you believe about salvation?

In its shortest form, Lordship Salvation.
theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?

Predestination for salvation is clearly written in the Bible (Romans 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5, 11). If you don’t like the idea of double predestination, I completely understand where you’re coming from. I may not completely agree with you, but I can see where you’re coming from.

Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?

You need to familiarize yourself with something called compatibilism. The either/or setup of your title assumes a position of incompatibilism. Monergism is a great thing to explore, but your first step should have been compatibilism and incompatibilism. Monergism will naturally cause you to think in terms of hard determinism if you aren’t familiar with compatibilism.

Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

Sounds about right. I’m curious about your use of quotation marks, though.

Is our acceptance of Christ not a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?

Monergism does not rob humanity of free will because- again- we do something called compatibilism. I know that’s what you’re getting at, and compatibilism is the thing that you need to explore.
More to the point, though, we love God because He first loved us. It’s not coincidental; it’s causative.

Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

In my personal experience, very much so. There’s a longer story behind that, but I’ll just leave it as a strong yes.

Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

Absolutely. Research compatibilism.
theopedia.com/Compatibilism

And if you’re not familiar with Open Theism…
theopedia.com/Open_theism

Check your own story logic against that of Open Theism and see how well it matches up. I know you’ll feel really good about denying people assurance of salvation, but I don’t know about the rest of it.

[SIGN]So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom. 11:5-6[/SIGN]

 

[JRKH]

Here is an answer to your questions above according to the Word of God. It is not safe nor wise to gloss over Scripture.

I really didn’ t ask a question but rather expressed my view on the subject of “Predestination”

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. - Paul

No doubt that Scripture is God breathed and profitable as stated above.
However the concept of “Predestination” gives me NO profit. It neither aids me in teaching, nor in reproof or correction of another; It does not help me to train in rightiousness. Therefore I see no practical benefit in dwelling on someting that does not equipt me to be competent and equipped for every good work.
I have my hands full just living day by day in the Grace of God.

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. - Paul

But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

• Jesus the Christ

No argument here either and if others find practical benefit from such speculation that is fine.
Personally I can think of no - not one - practical application of “Pre-destination” or the basic “depravity of man” to either evangelization or to living our lives in Christ.
Perhaps such speculations ARE correct, but from my viewpoint (the human viewpoint) I must struggle to maintain my faith, to Live the Gospel, and to reflect Christ into the world. I do this by relying wholly on God.

Peace
James

 

[2nd_Adam]

If anybody wants to give me Scripture proofs to support an idea of free will, I would be most grateful. I believe our free will was lost in the garden… humanity’s will being inslaved to sin. We are born in bondage to our sin nature. Even when we are saved, our will is inclined to righteousness, bondservants of Christ (Rom 6) but not nessarily free from outside influence (Spirit or flesh - Rom 8).

John 8:34

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

 

[JRKH]

If anybody wants to give me Scripture proofs to support an idea of free will, I would be most grateful. I believe our free will was lost in the garden… humanity’s will being inslaved to sin. We are born in bondage to our sin nature. Even when we are saved, our will is inclined to righteousness, bondservants of Christ (Rom 6) but not nessarily free from outside influence (Spirit or flesh - Rom 8).

John 8:34

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

I’m sure this will go on and on but

From John the Baptist to Jesus to Paul, the exhortation is
“Repent”, “Be Baptized,” “Sin no More”…
These require actions on our part. An excersize ot our “Free Will” to either accept or reject God’s Grace.
Those who hold to the doctrine of “Total Depravity” and “Predestination” of Salvation and the Doctrine of the “Elect” take this “Co-operation” away from the equation. Personally I don’t know precisely How God goes about the work of Saving as many as He can.
I DO know this.
When I perofrm some act directed toward God, such as praying, resisting sin, or perofrming a work of charity, I feel that it is me, acting in co-operation with God’s Grace, that is at work. I recognize as well that this is an imperfect situation in that, in order to be "perfect as (my) Heaveny Father is perfect) I need to further subject my will to His Will so that every action of mine is done to the Glory of His name and the Promotion of the Kingdom.

How much of this is on me and how much is on God and how all of this is intertwined and what each and every specific definition is and how each and every individual understnads any of this is anyones guess. (whew)

I guess I’ll just have to keep on struggling along as best I can and wait upon th emercy of God.

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

**

Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation? **

I believe in God’s timeless eternity and omniscience, and I do not believe that God’s knowledge and will can be separated. Therefore, I think that we are certainly predestined for salvation, and I believe that one can say that God chooses to permit certain people to be damned by their own will (this on the assumption that some people are damned, which I believe to be possible, perhaps even highly likely, but not certain). However, it is important to maintain “asymmetry” between election to life and reprobation. God’s choice to save, and God’s implementation of this choice by offering prevenient grace, are both prior to any choice on our part that could lead to our salvation. God’s choice to permit certain people to be damned, however, is logically (obviously not temporally) subsequent to the stubborn persistence of such people in sin.

Of course it’s hard to explain how this could work without falling into contradiction. One interesting attempt is that of Fr. William Most. I am not entirely convinced by Fr. Most, but I’m not sure that I know of a better solution. The important point, however, is that this is an abstruse philosophical difficulty and should not (contrary to the claims of Calvinists) affect directly the Church’s proclamation of the doctrines of grace.
**

Do you believe God is not

an "equal opportunity Savior? **I see no particular reason to think that God cares that much about equality, except in the sense that all those whom God created with the same nature (all humans, for instance) have an equal degree of ontological dignity (they are at the same “level” on the Great Chain of Being, to use one traditional metaphor). However, Scripture, tradition, and reason agree in telling us that God is gracious and loves what He has made and does not desire the death of the wicked. So I am not sure about “equal opportunity,” but I do believe (as surely as I believe in God’s existence) that God genuinely desires the salvation of all and that if any are damned it is because of their own choice.

Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?

No, but we must distinguish. Human beings are incapable of taking the slightest step toward God without God’s “prevenient” grace–i.e., God’s grace going before our wills and moving us toward God. Humans then have the freedom to cooperate with that prevenient grace or to refuse it. There is some reason to think that in some cases God directly infuses sanctifying grace into the soul (the baptism of infants could be one such example, although arguably even an unbaptized infant has prevenient grace working on them), but this doesn’t seem to be the normal way in which God deals with the adult human will. Once a human being is regenerated, they are certainly capable of cooperating with God. But this is never 50/50 or even 99/1 or 99.99999/0.00001. God’s action is always the *total *cause of our salvation, while our response (enabled by God’s grace in the first place) is a partial concurrent cause.

In other words, the fundamental mistake made by “monergists” is to assume that God’s will and human cooperation mutually displace one another.
**

Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

**

No–the will of sinful human beings will always reject God apart from God’s prevenient grace which leads human beings toward regeneration.
**

Is our acceptance of Christ not

a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?**It is neither, as I said above. It is a unilateral move on God’s part to which we respond (enabled by prevenient grace) with a partial and imperfect cooperation.

Do you believe God has always shown more mercy to one people than to another?

I’m not sure that’s a question that we can meaningfully answer. I don’t think that God’s mercy is quantifiable. I believe that God moves all human beings through prevenient grace and that all human beings have the genuine chance to respond and be saved. I do not think that I can go beyond that. Clearly God allows us to be placed in very different circumstances and have very different (and incommensurable) advantages and disadvantages. I don’t think we can demand that a just God would necessarily find some way to even this out and give everyone a “level playing field,” although I think that we can confidently trust that a merciful God will take our disadvantages into account and never condemn us unless we insist (given every opportunity to do otherwise) on condemning ourselves.

Do you believe God’s pre-temporal choice to save one person over another is not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will?

I don’t think God “saves one person over another.” God doesn’t have a limited number of slots available (this does not contradict the idea that there is a fixed number of the elect in God’s providence–the point is that God could always choose for there to be more elect, if only by creating more people). One person’s salvation doesn’t entail another person’s damnation.

As I said, I do not believe that God’s choice to save a particular person is based on foreknowledge, but obviously God’s choice to allow a person to be damned *is *based on God’s foreknowledge of that person’s stubborn resistance to grace.

Are the “elect” chosen by God, based upon God’s “sovereign good pleasure,” alone?

Yes.

Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

No. See my remarks above on prevenient grace.

**Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

**

Yes, but free will is very difficult to define and there are a number of philosophical accounts of just what free will is and how it works.

Edwin

 

[NotTooSmart]

Hello:
The term “monergism” is quite new to me. I am not one.

The one point I really don’t get is when this is somhow regarded as a test of orthodoxy.

For example I have been told by Calvinists that I don’t believe in “Faith Alone” because I am not a Calvinist. (I have been told by these folks also that I don’t believe in “Bible Alone” because I support the Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. I just don’t get this.

Besides if monergism or Calvinism is a test of orthodoxy, then you have just made my favorite early Protestant, John Wesley, unorthodox. Them is fighting words to me.

**So, my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Sector, what do you believe about salvation?

Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?
**
Predestination with respect to salvation is in the Bible. I do not claim to understand it. I do not believe in predestination to damnation. Instead I believe damnation is a consequence of continuing to refuse Jesus.
Anna Scott;5695110:

Do you believe God is not

an "equal opportunity Savior?

I am not sure what you are asking. But probably not. I would speculate that Americans in the 21st century have greater opportunities for salvation than those living in Saudi Arabia.

Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?

Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

I believe God always initiates the process and that the process would be impossible unless initiated by God.

Is our acceptance of Christ not

a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?

When I read the book of Acts, it seems to me that the apostles always demand a response from the audience that they are preaching the gospel to. However, it is a response to what God has initiated.

Do you believe God has always shown more mercy to one people than to another?

My goodness. I would like to believe no, but then I think of how much more opportunity I have to respond to the gospel than those in Saudi Arabia. And one poster here pointed out the difference between Israel and the Amalekites.

Do you believe God’s pre-temporal choice to save one person over another is not

based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will?

Are the “elect” chosen by God, based upon God’s “sovereign good pleasure,” alone?

I really don’t know.

Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

I don’t get this one myself. My understanding is that they are concurrent with each other.

Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

Hmm…nobody had a gun to my head when I received Jesus Christ.

 

[Anna_Scott]

mmmcounts: Thank you for taking time to respond to this Thread.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott
So, my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Sector, what do you believe about salvation?

In its shortest form, Lordship Salvation.
theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

Appreciate the reference, and I welcome any quotes you want to provide from this source that pertain to our topic.

Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?

Predestination for salvation is clearly written in the Bible (Romans 8:29-30, Eph. 1:5, 11). If you don’t like the idea of double predestination, I completely understand where you’re coming from. I may not completely agree with you, but I can see where you’re coming from.

There are, indeed, many passages in the Bible that refer to Predestination.

Does the reference to predestination mean that God knows who will, and who will not answer His call? Or, does the reference to predestination mean that God chooses who he will enable or “regenerate” to answer His call, removing man’s “free will” in salvation?

**Romans 11:32: does say, **“For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” ---------This does appear that God is affecting “free will” by “consigning all to disobedience.”

Do you believe this means our “free will,” in the salvation process, has been removed for all time?

Monergism.com claims: “God is not an equal opportunity Savior. Indeed, from Abraham on, God has always shown more mercy to one people than to another.”

“This pretemporal choice was not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will

, for there is no person which fits that description. This decision was based upon God’s sovereign good pleasure alone.”

John 6:64-65: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe."** (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)** 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The statement, “Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe,” seems to directly contradict Monergism’s assertion that God’s “pretemporal choice was not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will”

Monergism, also, asserts that God’s call is "irresistible.

John 12:31-33 (ESV): 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32** And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.**" 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

If the call of God is “irresistible” (as Monergism asserts,) and Christ promises He will draw all people to Himself, wouldn’t it follow that all men will be saved due to the "irresistible call of Christ?

Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?

You need to familiarize yourself with something called compatibilism. The either/or setup of your title assumes a position of incompatibilism. Monergism is a great thing to explore, but your first step should have been compatibilism and incompatibilism. Monergism will naturally cause you to think in terms of hard determinism if you aren’t familiar with compatibilism.

Monergism espouses a hard determinism. You are welcome to state how you believe these other ideas or theologies pertain to our topic.

Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

Sounds about right. I’m curious about your use of quotation marks, though.

The quotation marks refer to the wording of the predestination assertions at Monergism.com: “God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37), draws His chosen ones to Christ.”

Is our acceptance of Christ not a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?

Monergism does not rob humanity of free will because- again- we do something called compatibilism. I know that’s what you’re getting at, and compatibilism is the thing that you need to explore.
More to the point, though, we love God because He first loved us. It’s not coincidental; it’s causative.

Monergism claims that man has no “free will” in salvation. Monergism.com states, “This pretemporal choice was not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will, for there is no person which fits that description."

Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

In my personal experience, very much so. There’s a longer story behind that, but I’ll just leave it as a strong yes.

Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

Absolutely. Research compatibilism.
theopedia.com/Compatibilism

And if you’re not familiar with Open Theism…
theopedia.com/Open_theism

I welcome any quotes, you wish to provide, in relation to our topic.

Check your own story logic against that of Open Theism and see how well it matches up.

What part of “my story” to you find illogical?

I know you’ll feel really good about denying people assurance of salvation, but I don’t know about the rest of it.

You may not speak for how I feel. I would not wish that anyone lose their salvation.

Thank you,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I believe in God’s timeless eternity and omniscience, and I do not believe that God’s knowledge and will can be separated. Therefore, I think that we are certainly predestined for salvation, and I believe that one can say that God chooses to permit certain people to be damned by their own will (this on the assumption that some people are damned, which I believe to be possible, perhaps even highly likely, but not certain). However, it is important to maintain “asymmetry” between election to life and reprobation. God’s choice to save, and God’s implementation of this choice by offering prevenient grace, are both prior to any choice on our part that could lead to our salvation. God’s choice to permit certain people to be damned, however, is logically (obviously not temporally) subsequent to the stubborn persistence of such people in sin.

Of course it’s hard to explain how this could work without falling into contradiction. One interesting attempt is that of Fr. William Most. I am not entirely convinced by Fr. Most, but I’m not sure that I know of a better solution. The important point, however, is that this is an abstruse philosophical difficulty and should not (contrary to the claims of Calvinists) affect directly the Church’s proclamation of the doctrines of grace.

I see no particular reason to think that God cares that much about equality, except in the sense that all those whom God created with the same nature (all humans, for instance) have an equal degree of ontological dignity (they are at the same “level” on the Great Chain of Being, to use one traditional metaphor). However, Scripture, tradition, and reason agree in telling us that God is gracious and loves what He has made and does not desire the death of the wicked. So I am not sure about “equal opportunity,” but I do believe (as surely as I believe in God’s existence) that God genuinely desires the salvation of all and that if any are damned it is because of their own choice.

No, but we must distinguish. Human beings are incapable of taking the slightest step toward God without God’s “prevenient” grace–i.e., God’s grace going before our wills and moving us toward God. Humans then have the freedom to cooperate with that prevenient grace or to refuse it. There is some reason to think that in some cases God directly infuses sanctifying grace into the soul (the baptism of infants could be one such example, although arguably even an unbaptized infant has prevenient grace working on them), but this doesn’t seem to be the normal way in which God deals with the adult human will. Once a human being is regenerated, they are certainly capable of cooperating with God. But this is never 50/50 or even 99/1 or 99.99999/0.00001. God’s action is always the *total *cause of our salvation, while our response (enabled by God’s grace in the first place) is a partial concurrent cause.

In other words, the fundamental mistake made by “monergists” is to assume that God’s will and human cooperation mutually displace one another.

No–the will of sinful human beings will always reject God apart from God’s prevenient grace which leads human beings toward regeneration.

It is neither, as I said above. It is a unilateral move on God’s part to which we respond (enabled by prevenient grace) with a partial and imperfect cooperation.
I’m not sure that’s a question that we can meaningfully answer. I don’t think that God’s mercy is quantifiable. I believe that God moves all human beings through prevenient grace and that all human beings have the genuine chance to respond and be saved. I do not think that I can go beyond that. Clearly God allows us to be placed in very different circumstances and have very different (and incommensurable) advantages and disadvantages. I don’t think we can demand that a just God would necessarily find some way to even this out and give everyone a “level playing field,” although I think that we can confidently trust that a merciful God will take our disadvantages into account and never condemn us unless we insist (given every opportunity to do otherwise) on condemning ourselves.

I don’t think God “saves one person over another.” God doesn’t have a limited number of slots available (this does not contradict the idea that there is a fixed number of the elect in God’s providence–the point is that God could always choose for there to be more elect, if only by creating more people). One person’s salvation doesn’t entail another person’s damnation.

As I said, I do not believe that God’s choice to save a particular person is based on foreknowledge, but obviously God’s choice to allow a person to be damned *is *based on God’s foreknowledge of that person’s stubborn resistance to grace.

. . . Yes, but free will is very difficult to define and there are a number of philosophical accounts of just what free will is and how it works. Edwin

**Edwin: **Your background, as a Church Historian, and your insight brings much to the discussion.

You speak of “prevenient grace.” If I understand correctly: Monergism claims that God’s call is “irresistible,” once “regeneration” takes place (at least that is what the folks at Monergism.com claim)----which contradicts the idea of “prevenient grace,” which is grace that enables us to respond to God’s call; and at the same time, allows us “free will” in our response. Please correct me if I do not have this quite right.

You made a very interesting point in saying, “In other words, the fundamental mistake made by “monergists” is to assume that God’s will and human cooperation mutually displace one another.”

I also believe in “God’s timeless eternity and omniscience,” and it seems unlikely that “God’s timeless eternity and omniscience” could be separated.

I agree that we are incapable of taking a step toward God without His Grace.

It seems that you are saying we are predestined for salvation, and yet God chooses to permit certain people to be damned by their own will.

I’m not quite sure I understand how salvation is not based on God’s foreknowledge, but damnation is a result of God’s foreknowledge.

It, also, seems you saying there is not a “double predestination,” where God chooses one for salvation, and another for damnation–simple by His “sovereign good pleasure,” without considering the free will to hold a stubborn persistence in sin. I agree.

I agree that God desires the salvation of all, as demonstrated clearly in Scripture; and I agree that, if any are damned, it is because of their own choice.

Indeed, this is a difficult topic, and you aptly called some of these ideas, “an abstruse philosophical difficulty.”

Again, Edwin, that you so much for your contribution to this topic. I welcome any other comments you may have.

Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

I believe in God’s timeless eternity and omniscience, and I do not believe that God’s knowledge and will can be separated. Therefore, I think that we are certainly predestined for salvation, and I believe that one can say that God chooses to permit certain people to be damned by their own will (this on the assumption that some people are damned, which I believe to be possible, perhaps even highly likely, but not certain). However, it is important to maintain “asymmetry” between election to life and reprobation. God’s choice to save, and God’s implementation of this choice by offering prevenient grace, are both prior to any choice on our part that could lead to our salvation. God’s choice to permit certain people to be damned, however, is logically (obviously not temporally) subsequent to the stubborn persistence of such people in sin.

Of course it’s hard to explain how this could work without falling into contradiction. One interesting attempt is that of Fr. William Most. I am not entirely convinced by Fr. Most, but I’m not sure that I know of a better solution. The important point, however, is that this is an abstruse philosophical difficulty and should not (contrary to the claims of Calvinists) affect directly the Church’s proclamation of the doctrines of grace.
**
**I see no particular reason to think that God cares that much about equality, except in the sense that all those whom God created with the same nature (all humans, for instance) have an equal degree of ontological dignity (they are at the same “level” on the Great Chain of Being, to use one traditional metaphor). However, Scripture, tradition, and reason agree in telling us that God is gracious and loves what He has made and does not desire the death of the wicked. So I am not sure about “equal opportunity,” but I do believe (as surely as I believe in God’s existence) that God genuinely desires the salvation of all and that if any are damned it is because of their own choice.

No, but we must distinguish. Human beings are incapable of taking the slightest step toward God without God’s “prevenient” grace–i.e., God’s grace going before our wills and moving us toward God. Humans then have the freedom to cooperate with that prevenient grace or to refuse it. There is some reason to think that in some cases God directly infuses sanctifying grace into the soul (the baptism of infants could be one such example, although arguably even an unbaptized infant has prevenient grace working on them), but this doesn’t seem to be the normal way in which God deals with the adult human will. Once a human being is regenerated, they are certainly capable of cooperating with God. But this is never 50/50 or even 99/1 or 99.99999/0.00001. God’s action is always the *total *cause of our salvation, while our response (enabled by God’s grace in the first place) is a partial concurrent cause.

In other words, the fundamental mistake made by “monergists” is to assume that God’s will and human cooperation mutually displace one another.
**
**

No–the will of sinful human beings will always reject God apart from God’s prevenient grace which leads human beings toward regeneration.
**
**It is neither, as I said above. It is a unilateral move on God’s part to which we respond (enabled by prevenient grace) with a partial and imperfect cooperation.
I’m not sure that’s a question that we can meaningfully answer. I don’t think that God’s mercy is quantifiable. I believe that God moves all human beings through prevenient grace and that all human beings have the genuine chance to respond and be saved. I do not think that I can go beyond that. Clearly God allows us to be placed in very different circumstances and have very different (and incommensurable) advantages and disadvantages. I don’t think we can demand that a just God would necessarily find some way to even this out and give everyone a “level playing field,” although I think that we can confidently trust that a merciful God will take our disadvantages into account and never condemn us unless we insist (given every opportunity to do otherwise) on condemning ourselves.
I don’t think God “saves one person over another.” God doesn’t have a limited number of slots available (this does not contradict the idea that there is a fixed number of the elect in God’s providence–the point is that God could always choose for there to be more elect, if only by creating more people). One person’s salvation doesn’t entail another person’s damnation.

As I said, I do not believe that God’s choice to save a particular person is based on foreknowledge, but obviously God’s choice to allow a person to be damned *is *based on God’s foreknowledge of that person’s stubborn resistance to grace.
Yes.

No. See my remarks above on prevenient grace.
Yes, but free will is very difficult to define and there are a number of philosophical accounts of just what free will is and how it works.

Edwin

Thanks Edwin, I think you represented both sides honestly andf fairly. Maybe it come down to sovereign grace verses prevenient" grace. I’m not sure how you get around John 6 in regards to prevenient grace, or Romans 8-11. Here is an article which is againts prevenient grace. We do have to ask the question about how effectual sovereign grace is in comparission to prevenient grace in saving sinners. Sovreign grace comes from the positon that Christ saves all whom the Father gave HIm to save perfectly (100% effectual).

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prevenient.html

 

[2nd_Adam]

Double predestination…what do you think?

So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

and

“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

• 2 Peter

 

[Anna_Scott]

hello:

The term “monergism” is quite new to me. I am not one.

The one point I really don’t get is when this is somhow regarded as a test of orthodoxy.

For example I have been told by Calvinists that I don’t believe in “Faith Alone” because I am not a Calvinist. (I have been told by these folks also that I don’t believe in “Bible Alone” because I support the Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. I just don’t get this.

Besides if monergism or Calvinism is a test of orthodoxy, then you have just made my favorite early Protestant, John Wesley, unorthodox. Them is fighting words to me.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: I have only recently looked at Monergism, as it relates to the issues of the Protestant Reformation. I would say that many Christians are unfamiliar with the term, so you are not alone. I’m sure you have heard of “salvation by grace alone” or “salvation by faith alone.” Monergism speaks to the issue of Sola Gratia (by grace alone.) The doctrine of Sola Gratia, by grace alone, has many variations and complicated twists and turns, that can be very difficult to sort through.

It is interesting how quickly people want to tell you what you believe, based on Calvin, or Luther, or another Protestant Reformer. I run into this often on the Forums. You know what you believe. You don’t have to choose a Protestant Reformer, and adhere to every doctrine they proclaim. We are, after all, Christians, first and foremost.

Personally, I do not like to attach any man’s name to my Christianity.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: So, my brothers and sisters in the Protestant Sector, what do you believe about salvation? Are we predestined for either salvation or damnation?

Predestination with respect to salvation is in the Bible. I do not claim to understand it. I do not believe in predestination to damnation. Instead I believe damnation is a consequence of continuing to refuse Jesus.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: I agree both that predestination with respect to salvation is difficult to understand, and that damnation is a consequence of our own sin and refusal to come to the Salvation of Christ.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: Do you believe God is not an "equal opportunity Savior?

I am not sure what you are asking. But probably not. I would speculate that Americans in the 21st century have greater opportunities for salvation than those living in Saudi Arabia.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: Interesting points. I do believe there is more to salvation than we realize, even extending after we leave this mortal life. I firmly believe that God wishes that all would be saved.

**Originally Posted by Anna Scott: **
Is man incapable of cooperating with God in Salvation?
Does man’s “free will” always choose to reject God, apart from God’s intervention to “regenerate” man and prepare him for His “irresistible” call to salvation?

I believe God always initiates the process and that the process would be impossible unless initiated by God.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: I agree.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: Is our acceptance of Christ not a joint venture between us and God, but a unilateral move on God’s part?

When I read the book of Acts, it seems to me that the apostles always demand a response from the audience that they are preaching the gospel to. However, it is a response to what God has initiated.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: I agree.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: Do you believe God has always shown more mercy to one people than to another?

My goodness. I would like to believe no, but then I think of how much more opportunity I have to respond to the gospel than those in Saudi Arabia. And one poster here pointed out the difference between Israel and the Amalekites.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: Romans has some interesting things to say that deal with timing and opportunity.

Romans 11:28-32: 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[e] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: Do you believe God’s pre-temporal choice to save one person over another is not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will?

Are the “elect” chosen by God, based upon God’s “sovereign good pleasure,” alone?

I really don’t know.

**Originally Posted by Anna Scott: **
Must one be “regenerated” by God before he can turn to Christ for salvation?

I don’t get this one myself. My understanding is that they are concurrent with each other.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: This gets complicated. This is a quote from my response to Contarini, earlier today:

“You speak of “prevenient grace.” If I understand correctly: Monergism claims that God’s call is “irresistible,” once “regeneration” takes place (at least that is what the folks at Monergism.com claim)----which contradicts the idea of “prevenient grace,” which is grace that enables us to respond to God’s call; and at the same time, allows us “free will” in our response. Please correct me if I do not have this quite right.”

Originally Posted by Anna Scott: Do we have “Free Will” in any part of salvation?

Hmm…nobody had a gun to my head when I received Jesus Christ.

Anna Scott’s Response to NotTooSmart: True. You, no doubt, responded to God’s call.

Thank you for contributing to this post. It is good to see that you decided to stay for awhile.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

If I understand official Catholic Theology, we (historic Protestants and Catholics) agree on the sola of grace alone. Where we divide in theology is the sola of Faith Alone. I hope that helps our discussion.