Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[RickHolland]

Contarini;5743358:

If election is unconditional, then why would some of the elect be unsaved? Why elect someone who won’t ultimately be saved?

Best Regards

I’m sorry for jumping in here, but if the “elect” were to be unsaved…they would not be the “elect” would they? God predestined before the foundation of the world whom He chose to give to Christ and when it all comes together Christ will present the bride to God the Father…and they lived happily ever after…amen. Except for those that didn’t get it, which are the many…they lived miserably ever after.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Contarini;5743358:

In my opinion this is merely a semantics game. Salvation requires our decision to accept God’s grace… Our salvation is conditional. Jesus draws all men to himself, God shows mercy to all, and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. Clearly we have a role to play in responding to this grace and mercy.

Please share how you came up with the idea the Jesus draws all men to himself. I know many who are not drawn to Jesus. Could you also share what you mean that God shows mercy to all.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Apostle Paul

 

[RickHolland]

CHESTERTONRULES;5747014:

Please share how you came up with the idea the Jesus draws all men to himself. I know many who are not drawn to Jesus. Could you also share what you mean that God shows mercy to all.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Apostle Paul

Amen to the apostle! Perhaps like grace, their is some mercy given to each and every person in the sense that He doesn’t just kill and send to hell those that will never come to Him. Certainly grace is betowed upon all the living throughout the ages as the rain and sun fall and shine on the good and the evil.

Happy Lords Day!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5747014:

Please share how you came up with the idea the Jesus draws all men to himself. I know many who are not drawn to Jesus. Could you also share what you mean that God shows mercy to all.

l

I believe all of the bible, not just selected portions, including John 12:31-32.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;5747854:

I believe all of the bible, not just selected portions, including John 12:31-32.

Context is always good. And we know the entire Bible is the proper context for any scripture to believe in a doctrine. What do you believe Jesus meant that He would draw all people to himself? BTW… the gospel of John is the most Calvinistic book in the Bible.

Some Greeks Seek Jesus

20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. 21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

The Son of Man Must Be Lifted Up

27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

The Unbelief of the People

When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. 42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

Jesus Came to Save the World

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5749153:

Context is always good. And we know the entire Bible is the proper context for any scripture to believe in a doctrine. What do you believe Jesus meant that He would draw all people to himself? BTW… the gospel of John is the most Calvinistic book in the Bible.

.”

Nothing you have posted in any way changes the words of Jesus.

Jesus is drawing all people to himself since he has been lifted up from the earth. That’s what the bible explicitly states and I believe it.

John 3
35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

Man can choose to reject God. God does not reject man.

More evidence here:

John 5
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5747014:

I’m sorry for jumping in here, but if the “elect” were to be unsaved…they would not be the “elect” would they? er.

That is my point.

 

[RevDrNorth]

2nd Adam;5749243:

Nothing you have posted in any way changes the words of Jesus.

Jesus is drawing all people to himself since he has been lifted up from the earth. That’s what the bible explicitly states and I believe it.

John 3
35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

Man can choose to reject God. God does not reject man.

More evidence here:

John 5
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

I am afraid that what you have posted does nothing to negate Reformed Theology. The only ones who will truly believe are the elect. Many…many passages support election, eternal security, etc.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;5749243:

Nothing you have posted in any way changes the words of Jesus.

Jesus is drawing all people to himself since he has been lifted up from the earth. That’s what the bible explicitly states and I believe it.

John 3
35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

Man can choose to reject God. God does not reject man.

More evidence here:

John 5
26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

If you consider the entire gospel of John, you will find it to be the most Calvinistic book in the entire Bible. It’s dangerous to take things out of context to make it saying something that you want it to say.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World

16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5750210:

I am afraid that what you have posted does nothing to negate Reformed Theology. The only ones who will truly believe are the elect. Many…many passages support election, eternal security, etc.

And many, many more support our responsibity and opportunity to respond to God’s grace.

God wants all men to be saved. Therefore, those who are not saved can’t blame God.

You want to blame God for sending people to Hell. I reject this.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5750210:

If you consider the entire gospel of John, you will find it to be the most Calvinistic book in the entire Bible. It’s dangerous to take things out of context to make it saying something that you want it to say.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God

.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World

16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

From your post:

20 For **everyone who does wicked things **hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

What is the determining factor as to who comes to the light?

Do you believe God is just and merciful? Do our actions on earth matter to God?

If not, please explain God’s justice and mercy.

 

[RickHolland]

What is the determining factor as to who comes to the light?

Do you believe God is just and merciful? Do our actions on earth matter to God?

If not, please explain God’s justice and mercy.

God is the determining factor; He predestined those who would come to Him before the earth was even created. We do not come to Him until He first moves us. We love Him because He first loved us. (paraphrased)

God is just and merciful, part of His unchanging character. We will choose to come to Him and just like those that are aware and reject to come, but the sovereighnty of God overrules our limited nature. Our nature is never to come to God by our own sin nature which is opposed to Gods perfect nature. We cannot change our nature ourselves; that is the work of God. Who wrote the Bible, God or men? Both. Who chooses whom? Man or God? Both Who does the works wrought in a beleiver? Man or God? Both
The paradoxes in the Bible are beyond our comprehension, which is part of why we walk by faith and not by our own understandings.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES
What is the determining factor as to who comes to the light?

Do you believe God is just and merciful? Do our actions on earth matter to God?

If not, please explain God’s justice and mercy.

God is the determining factor; He predestined those who would come to Him before the earth was even created. We do not come to Him until He first moves us. We love Him because He first loved us. (paraphrased)

God is just and merciful, part of His unchanging character. We will choose to come to Him and just like those that are aware and reject to come, but the sovereighnty of God overrules our limited nature. Our nature is never to come to God by our own sin nature which is opposed to Gods perfect nature. We cannot change our nature ourselves; that is the work of God. Who wrote the Bible, God or men? Both. Who chooses whom? Man or God? Both Who does the works wrought in a beleiver? Man or God? Both
The paradoxes in the Bible are beyond our comprehension, which is part of why we walk by faith and not by our own understandings.

My answer would be the same as Rick’s answer above.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

God is the determining factor; He predestined those who would come to Him before the earth was even created. We do not come to Him until He first moves us. We love Him because He first loved us. (paraphrased)

 

[2nd_Adam]

RickHolland;5752668:

Grace enables us to seek and find God. However, you seem to believe that God withholds his grace from some and grants it to others. That is unbiblical.

God wants all men to choose him, but he won’t force us.

Eze. 33
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!

Rom. 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all

, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

Rom 11:32
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:31-32
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all people **to myself.

1Cor. 15:21-22
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as **all **die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1 Timothy 2
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Luke 13
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

All has to be understood in the proper context. If you consider the word “all” to be every single human being, then your interpertation would lead to universalism. God’s desire is seen in Ezek 33, and 1 Tim 2… but His desire needs to be distinstinguished from His sovereign will. God cannot act against His own justice… because if God was not just… then God would be immoral and sinful. I personally see your postings to go beyond the Catholic Faith and into semi-pelagism which is a form a humanism. That is the danger of Catholics trying to defend the Catholic Faith by quoting the Scriptures quite loosely.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Grace enables us to seek and find God. However, you seem to believe that God withholds his grace from some and grants it to others. That is unbiblical.

God wants all men to choose him, but he won’t force us.

Rom. 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all

, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

John 12:31-32
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all people **to myself.

1Cor. 15:21-22
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as **all **die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

Here is another “all” to consider:

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [3] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. - 1 Cor 15

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5752701:

[All has to be understood in the proper context. If you consider the word “all” to be every single human being, then your interpertation would lead to universalism.

No it wouldn’t. The fact that all are led to justification doesn’t mean that all are justified. God wants all men to be saved. The scriptures are clear.

God’s desire is seen in Ezek 33, and 1 Tim 2… but His desire needs to be distinstinguished from His sovereign will. God cannot act against His own justice… because if God was not just… then God would be immoral and sinful. I personally see your postings to go beyond the Catholic Faith and into semi-pelagism which is a form a humanism. That is the danger of Catholics trying to defend the Catholic Faith by quoting the Scriptures quite loosely.

This is Calvinist semantics.

All I did was quote scripture. You reject scripture or distort it beyond recognition.

Nothing I have posted contradicts Catholic doctrine.

God wants all men to be saved.

To quote Augustine:

“Without God, we can’t. Without us, God won’t.”
[/quote]

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;5752701:

Here is another “all” to consider:

Your point?

 

[2nd_Adam]

CHESTERTONRULES:

Your point?

When you quote scripture, the “all” means something within the context the all is written. It seems to me that you are acting like a Protestant by quoting all of these Scriptures. However, your Scripture quotings are very much out of context.

 

[RickHolland]

Grace enables us to seek and find God. However, you seem to believe that God withholds his grace from some and grants it to others. That is unbiblical.

God wants all men to choose him, but he won’t force us.

Eze. 33
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!

Rom. 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

Rom 11:32
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:31-32
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all people **to myself.

1Cor. 15:21-22
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as **all **die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1 Timothy 2
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Luke 13
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Have you ever read that God hardened the heart of some, Pharaoh for example. Does this mean that God acted upon Pharaoh so he could not respond? No; it means God chose not to move in His heart to change it. Pharaoh shows us just how sinful and opposed to God’s perfect nature that we are. God withheld His salvific grace from Pharaoh for sure. Who is best demonstrated by this in the NT; Judas Iscariot. He was given 3 years with God himself and witnessed miracle upon miracle and was shown love and mercy beyond our understanding; yet unless God moves into the heart and changes it; no amount of revelation will man chose God on His own.

The question is why do you not see or understand this? Why do you not see how our sin nature limits our ability to come to God? Why do you not see that unless God moves first we will not choose Him because of our sin nature? Why do you not understand the free-will paradox?