Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[2nd_Adam]

A God who created us with free will.

Or rather, ChestertonRules lacks the Calvinist gloss that tells you how to read the Bible. Nothing in the text itself supports your claim that whenever “turning away” is spoken of it applies only to nonbelievers. You are bringing this theological assumption to the text.

There’s no “snatching” involved if we freely choose to turn away. This passage is clearly talking about some external force overpowering God’s grace, not about our free choice to shut ourselves off from the grace we have once experienced.

There are a lot of things in those passages. They are saying that all salvation is from God so that no one can boast. How on earth is this supposed to rule out the possibility that some might be regenerate and still fall away?

You fall into the typical fundamentalist trap of simply throwing Scriptures at our heads without bothering to explain why they must mean what you say they mean. This isn’t very impressive to someone who doesn’t already share your theological assumptions.

Edwin

You definitely have a Wesleyan slant on things. Didn’t John Wesley get along with the Catholic Church as a Protestant? Maybe the Calvinists on this thread can be George Whitefield and you can be John Wesley. You have to admit, the more gifted theologians in the church were Calvinistic throughout redemptive history (Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Owen, Bunyan, Spuergon, etc…) Who are conisdered the gifted theologians from the Arminian perspective?

spiritone.com/~wing/gw2jw.htm

 

[RickHolland]

God created us by the word of truth. The Jews are the firstfruits. This has nothing to do with Calvinist dogma.

His own people is the Jews. Who will become the children of God? Those that receive him and believe in his name.

John 1:12-13But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God

How do you say this is the Jews? “His own received Hin not”, *the Jews-yes *BUT and I’ll repeat for clarification BUT, as many as received Him-who are they? The unbeliving Christ rejecters? NO!! and Not by the will of the flesh or by man, but GOD!!!

This passage is probably the strongest passage for Calvinist dogma in the bible. However, it is not dogmatic teaching, it is rhetorical.

Note t the bolded passage above. Paul is asking a rhetorical question, thus the question mark. This is not a dogmatic proclamation. His point is simple. God can do whatever he wants. No Christian denies this. However, we must read the rest of the bible to learn what it is that God wants.

God does have mercy on whomever he wills. So who does he have mercy on?

Keep reading in Romans

Romans 11
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ro. 11:From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God’s} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you(GENTILES) once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their(JEWS) disobedience, so these(JEWS) also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you(GENTILES) they(JEWS) also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all(JEWS & GENTILES) in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all (JEWS & GENTILES). The “all” are in the context of Jew & Gentile, not “all” as in every single person nor every single Jew & Gentile. Notice that His gifts, like salvation for example, are irrevocable-consistent with all of Scripture.

Lord open yourself to Chesterton for your namesake.

 

[RickHolland]

A God who created us with free will.

Or rather, ChestertonRules lacks the Calvinist gloss that tells you how to read the Bible. Nothing in the text itself supports your claim that whenever “turning away” is spoken of it applies only to nonbelievers. You are bringing this theological assumption to the text.

There’s no “snatching” involved if we freely choose to turn away. This passage is clearly talking about some external force overpowering God’s grace, not about our free choice to shut ourselves off from the grace we have once experienced.

There are a lot of things in those passages. They are saying that all salvation is from God so that no one can boast. How on earth is this supposed to rule out the possibility that some might be regenerate and still fall away?

You fall into the typical fundamentalist trap of simply throwing Scriptures at our heads without bothering to explain why they must mean what you say they mean. This isn’t very impressive to someone who doesn’t already share your theological assumptions.

Edwin

You really should blot out the title you claim in your profile. There is nothing more deceptive like one who makes the claim but only in name; you are very easy to discern and a phony as I see it. Rhetoric and no substance when it comes to discerning the word of God, yet you make the claim of Christian. Your words and understanding prove otherwise. Try not to get confused between condeming and discerning; condemantion is the sole work of God as well.

 

[RickHolland]

I am very familiar with the Catholic Catechism. I first read that section about 12 years ago. I disagree with most of it. Remember, I believe in a forensic justification through imputation according to the Apostle Paul. Please try to reconcile this verse which clearly teaches a forensic justification.

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. - Paul

Colossians 2:13-15 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having ***canceled out the certificate of debt ***consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

Amen!

“canceled”; exaleiphō: **to wipe off, wipe away

1. to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out **to anoint or wash in every part
2. to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster)

What are those “decrees”; the law or “dogma” 1) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; 2) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

 

[RickHolland]

You definitely have a Wesleyan slant on things. Didn’t John Wesley get along with the Catholic Church as a Protestant? Maybe the Calvinists on this thread can be George Whitefield and you can be John Wesley. You have to admit, the more gifted theologians in the church were Calvinistic throughout redemptive history (Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Owen, Bunyan, Spuergon, etc…) Who are conisdered the gifted theologians from the Arminian perspective?

spiritone.com/~wing/gw2jw.htm

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Colossians 2:13-15 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having ***canceled out the certificate of debt ***consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

Amen!

“canceled”; exaleiphō: **to wipe off, wipe away

1. to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out **to anoint or wash in every part
2. to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster)

What are those “decrees”; the law or “dogma” 1) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; 2) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Keep reading!

Col 3

5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips…23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

What of we don’t put death what belongs to our earthly nature?

How will we be repaid for our wrongs?

For what will receive an inheritance?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Does this describe you?

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[Contarini]

You definitely have a Wesleyan slant on things. Didn’t John Wesley get along with the Catholic Church as a Protestant? Maybe the Calvinists on this thread can be George Whitefield and you can be John Wesley. You have to admit, the more gifted theologians in the church were Calvinistic throughout redemptive history (Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Owen, Bunyan, Spuergon, etc…) %between%

LOL! Only if you count just Protestants.

Arminians do need to acknowledge their Catholic affinities. I have no problem doing so.

Granted, the greatest *Western *theologians were Augustinian (though obviously not Calvinist in the case of the Catholics). But then there are the Greek Fathers: Irenaeus, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa. . . . I’ll put any of them up against all the Calvinists together in a heartbeat.

Paul and Augustine, of course, were not Calvinistic! There’s more to Calvinism than just predestination. What makes Calvinism heretical, or at least somewhat unorthodox, is the context in which you *put *the doctrine of predestination and the importance you give it in your soteriology.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

You really should blot out the title you claim in your profile. There is nothing more deceptive like one who makes the claim but only in name; you are very easy to discern and a phony as I see it. Rhetoric and no substance when it comes to discerning the word of God, yet you make the claim of Christian. Your words and understanding prove otherwise. Try not to get confused between condeming and discerning; condemantion is the sole work of God as well.

Interesting. If someone disagrees with you they are not a Christian. And if someone makes arguments you find it difficult to refute, you write a post with no substance claiming that they other guy has no substance!

Real slick, Mr. Holland!

Edwin

 

[debgab]

You avoided the simple yes or no question, so I will ask it again. If God left all the sinners on that side of the Reiver of Death; would He be justified in doing so? Yes or No

Yes, he would be justified in doing so because he is God, and as God he can choose to destroy us. We are nothing more than a part of his creation, but even so, a special creation, because we were made in his very likeness and image, with the possibility given to us through his grace and sacrifice to love him back.
His desire to show us his love, went to an extreme, He sacrificed his only Son.
That’s a lot of mercy shown for us; hard for us to understand, and a daily task to believe with our limited hearts and minds. We show him our love through obedience, by love of our neighbor, compassion for the poor, and vigilance to do what’s right by obeying his commandments, and these are not easy things to do, but enduring hard things makes us small like a child, and as a child, we come to him as our Father. There would be no point, in my mind, for us to bother with him at all if he didn’t have mercy for us, that is the whole point of mercy, it’s for people who are working at something but fall/fail. If you believe you are already elected to be saved, would you believe the Father already loves you, but doesn’t love other’s who don’t love him? I think the Father loves his entire family and desires all of us to be saved and will do everything to call us back to him up to the very last minute. Do we get to want the love of the Father and in return we will be saved? or does he put it into us to want to love him, and only then we are saved? Like an earthly father who’s son/daughter disregards him, he never stops loving him/her and never gives up on the hope that he/she will come back to him. He’s always calling us, ready to forgive us even up to the last moment of life on earth all who are baptized in Jesus’s name. I also believe in purgatory as a means of a final purification before we can see Him, and so think this can be accomplished thru suffering here on earth, this makes us small and malleable, another way he continues to call us. Regarding the talk of the Elect, doesn’t the bible say even the Elect would be deceived by the anti-christ. Since that is the case, mercy would have to be shown to them so they could re-attain their salvation, but in my mind and my understanding, the Elect are all those who have been baptized. Maybe most of you are right though, that the Elect are a certain number of people that God knows will be in eternity with him no matter what, but maybe for the vast majority, grace is given for the opportunity to attain eternity; working at it with obedience, discipline and faith.
Sincerely,
Debbie

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Does this mean anything to you?

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[RickHolland]

Keep reading!

Col 3

5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips…23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

What of we don’t put death what belongs to our earthly nature?

How will we be repaid for our wrongs?

For what will receive an inheritance?

1. Prove yourself to be a professor (nonbeliever)
2. Eternal hell
3. see #2 for nonbeliever and for the believer see 1 Corinthians 3:8-9

Wow…simply amazing.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

1. Prove yourself to be a professor (nonbeliever)
2. Eternal hell
3. see #2 for nonbeliever and for the believer see 1 Corinthians 3:8-9

Wow…simply amazing.

It’s amazing that you don’t think this applies to you:

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[RickHolland]

Does this describe you?

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Luke 18:13 “And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.”

 

[Anna_Scott]

I had to take a break from the forums. I see the posts are continuing and are very interesting.

As the OP, I appreciate all your contributions. I’ll keep following and jump in when I can.

Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

Luke 18:13 “And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.”

Us Calvinists know we are wretched sinners… just like John Newton. We need more than just a little bit of help from God. We line up next to the Apostle Paul as the chief sinner. We are just like Lazarus… stinking dead in the grave (spirituality dead in our sins and treaspasses). We need more than just the wooing of the Spirit to respond.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Luke 18:13 “And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.”

Are you calling Paul a publican?

I don’t follow you.

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Are you calling Paul a publican?

I don’t follow you.

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Please consider the entire book of Galatians before quoting from Galatians 6.

Gal 2

Paul Opposes Peter

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Justified by Faith

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3

By Faith, or by Works of the Law?

3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer [2] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify [3] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [4] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit [5] through faith.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please consider the entire book of Galatians before quoting from Galatians 6.

Gal 2

Paul Opposes Peter

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Justified by Faith

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3

By Faith, or by Works of the Law?

3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer [2] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify [3] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [4] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit [5] through faith.

Like many Calvinists, you seem unable to distinguish between following the works of the law and obeying Jesus. We are required to strive for obedience to Jesus.

Do you believe that you can persistently disobey Jesus and still go to heaven?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Like many Calvinists, you seem unable to distinguish between following the works of the law and obeying Jesus. We are required to strive for obedience to Jesus.

Do you believe that you can persistently disobey Jesus and still go to heaven?

If you persistently disobey Jesus than you do not love Him. If you do not love God, than you will not be in Heaven. I think you are confused between different schools of thought of Protestantism. We have the Charles Finney camp of easy believism, decisional regeneration, altar calls and sinners prayers, with no need of progressive Lordship. And the other Protestant camp is the Lordship camp which is Reformed and others too. If you are able to understand the difference, our conversations would make more sense.

Do you see the works of the law to be the 10 commandments? If so, do you agree in the summary of Jesus of the two greatest commandments? Do you see obeying Jesus to be different than the two greatest commandments?