protestants: do you believe that sola fide is essential to salvation?

[lak611]

I’m middle of the road here. Some Catholics are Christians some are not. If the Catholic has the required faith and has turned their lives over to God… they are Christians. the ones who say “Well, My parents had me baptized as an infant and I am not a bad person overall, therefore I’m Catholic and I will probably get into heaven” are likely NOT Christians.

While I’ve seen over and over on this forum that the second is not proper Catholic Teaching, it is what I hear from the majority of Catholics I’ve met in person.

The doctrine ‘sola fide’ is not required for salvation. True Faith IS required.

True Catholic faith is not the same as “cafeteria or cultural Catholic”. I was one of those at one point in my life. Now I know what the Catholic faith is really about, and I strive to practice my faith. I believe that it is only by God’s grace that I have gone back to my faith; I certainly wanted nothing to do with it at the time. But God convicted me of my sinful life, and I repented, first to God and then to my priest. It was through reading the Bible that the Holy Spirit showed me what I was doing that was wrong. Just saying that you are a Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. means nothing. It is how you live your life. Faith without works is dead, and all of us need to put our faith into action. When I returned to the Catholic Church, I joined a Bible study group at my parish, which led me into a volunteer opportunity (a mission meal for the poor which is supported by Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Presbyterian pastors and laymen.). Since I’ve been back, I have desired to learn more about my faith and have also read the Bible through several times, in addition to my Sunday school classes. Now I want all people to know the good news of Christ, whether they are Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox (and non-believers too!). I praise God for what He has done for me, because I certainly was not doing anything on my own that was good. He met me where I was at, and He brought me back to His Church.

 

[Syele]

True Catholic faith is not the same as “cafeteria or cultural Catholic”. I was one of those at one point in my life. Now I know what the Catholic faith is really about, and I strive to practice my faith. I believe that it is only by God’s grace that I have gone back to my faith; I certainly wanted nothing to do with it at the time. But God convicted me of my sinful life, and I repented, first to God and then to my priest. It was through reading the Bible that the Holy Spirit showed me what I was doing that was wrong. Just saying that you are a Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. means nothing. It is how you live your life. Faith without works is dead, and all of us need to put our faith into action. When I returned to the Catholic Church, I joined a Bible study group at my parish, which led me into a volunteer opportunity (a mission meal for the poor which is supported by Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Presbyterian pastors and laymen.). Since I’ve been back, I have desired to learn more about my faith and have also read the Bible through several times, in addition to my Sunday school classes. Now I want all people to know the good news of Christ, whether they are Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox (and non-believers too!). I praise God for what He has done for me, because I certainly was not doing anything on my own that was good. He met me where I was at, and He brought me back to His Church.

I understand the two I mentioned are not the same… I didn’t mean to imply I thought they were. I just can’t say “All Catholics are Christians” When a significant portion of people calling themselves Catholic are not Christians. By the same standard… I have never even met someone that says “My family is Protestant, I was dedicated Protestant, I’m not too bad a person so I’m Protestant and going to heaven.” I’m sure some exist, but I haven’t met them.Even the nominal ones tend to have a very basic understanding that something more than family and not being too evil is required.

I also want to say, I think a significant portion of Catholics on this forum ARE Christians. Most of the type who came to be Catholic Christians when really they aren’t, wouldn’t bother being on this sort of forum anyhow.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Some Catholics are Christians some are not.

I didn’t mean to imply I thought they were. I just can’t say “All Catholics are Christians” When a significant portion of people calling themselves Catholic are not Christians.

Syele

I don’t mean to side track this thread, but those Catholics that you consider Christian, are they devout Catholics? What I mean to ask is, if someone is a devout Catholic do you consider them Christians? Or is your opinion like some of the Protestants that I hear from time to time, “Yea Catholics can be Christian, but it is in spite of their Catholic beliefs”?

I hope my question made sense. There is a difference is saying Catholics are Christian because of their Catholic beliefs, and saying Catholics can be Christian despite their Catholic beliefs.

God bless

 

[jonfan]

Hi,
Because I was kinda mean before–I found an article that sums it up nicely. I know you wont believe it but here it is. They give scripture that you can look up.
Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults.(CC is not a cult) Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.

Hi AFH,
Would an aithiest who is a fireman who runs in and saves a child from a burning building be considered a bad work?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi AFH,
Would an aithiest who is a fireman who runs in and saves a child from a burning building be considered a bad work?

Well, I suppose since he is an atheist it wouldnt matter because it isnt being done unto God.

As humans of course we think it is a good work. But according to God unless it is done unto Glorify Him then it is worthless. I didnt make the rules HE DID I just try to obey them.

 

[jonfan]

Well, I suppose since he is an atheist it wouldnt matter because it isnt being done unto God.

As humans of course we think it is a good work. But according to God unless it is done unto Glorify Him then it is worthless. I didnt make the rules HE DID I just try to obey them.

Hmm… well I would say it is a good work. I would say however the fireman’s personal life might be in disarray. He might feel spiritually empty as he lacks faith. So even though what the fireman did was essentially good it didn’t make him feel any better about life as he cut himself off from God. Thus Faith without works is dead faith. my 2cents.

 

[Syele]

Syele
I don’t mean to side track this thread, but those Catholics that you consider Christian, are they devout Catholics? What I mean to ask is, if someone is a devout Catholic do you consider them Christians? Or is your opinion like some of the Protestants that I hear from time to time, “Yea Catholics can be Christian, but it is in spite of their Catholic beliefs”?
…
God bless

Well it’s hard to answer your question, but I will try an answer. BTW I don’t think we are derailing the thread at all… my reasons are right in line with sola fide. The in spite of or because of doesn’t really fit. It’s more a question of motivation and faith. Don’t confuse the words belief and faith.

Faith is about loyalty, trust, and sacrifice where belief is simply acknowledging the truth.

The Demons believe, that doesn’t make them Christians! (James 2:19)

Just as works follow true faith, works without faith is dead even if you believe.

“I try to do all the Church teaches me because I believe Jesus is the Son of God.” is not equivalent to “I do all Christ commands because I love Him and trust Him to be totally in charge of all I do.” If a Catholic believes the the second (and therefore also the first) they are saved. If they believe only the first… even if all their works are in line with scripture and they never “mortally sin” they are not.

bold mine:

The Rich Young Ruler

16(O)And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain (P)eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but (Q)if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “(R)YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
19(S)HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and (T)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
** 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”**
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The Disciples’ Reward

27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. **
** 30"But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Faith is absolutely required for salvation. The rich young ruler trusted in his riches more than in Jesus. He followed ALL the commandments, but he did not have faith in Jesus and could not be a follower of Christ. Jesus knew what the young rulers faith was in… money. So He told him he’d have to give that up to follow him. The ruler was not willing.

In the same way, following all the rules of the Church and all the commandments and being a model citizen will do you no good if there is no faith. I know the Catholic Church does not teach works without faith, but sadly, so many rely on works only anyhow. It is much easier to fail to sin mortally than it is to totally trust God for everything. This is the sacrifice we must make to follow God. A sacrifice of everything we hold dear and putting God in that place. Anything less is idol worship.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hmm… well I would say it is a good work. I would say however the fireman’s personal life might be in disarray. He might feel spiritually empty as he lacks faith. So even though what the fireman did was essentially good it didn’t make him feel any better about life as he cut himself off from God. Thus Faith without works is dead faith. my 2cents.

Hi,
I think Im brain dead from too much shopping :whacky: because I was with you until the last statement. Im not seeing how this example relates to your last statement.

 

[jonfan]

Hi,
I think Im brain dead from too much shopping :whacky: because I was with you until the last statement. Im not seeing how this example relates to your last statement.

That’s ok me too. Not from shopping though. lol. I am saying good works can be a seperate enitity from faith. The fireman did a good work but still won’t get into heaven. On the other side of the coin **A person might believe he is saved but not do any good works. **

** I believe James was saying you can’t have one without the other **thus Faith without works is a dead faith.

The fireman had good works and no faith. (dead faith)

A **person who claims he is saved but does no good works **is a dead faith.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

That’s ok me too. Not from shopping though. lol. I am saying good works can be a seperate enitity from faith. The fireman did a good work but still won’t get into heaven. On the other side of the coin **A person might believe he is saved but not do any good works. **

** I believe James was saying you can’t have one without the other **thus Faith without works is a dead faith.

The fireman had good works and no faith. (dead faith)

A **person who claims he is saved but does no good works **is a dead faith.

I hope that makes sense.

OK I get it now:thumbsup: Sorry I made you explain further. Shopping is very draining for a woman. LOL Plus we went to a far away fairly new huge outlet mall.

Anyway–thank you

 

[jonfan]

OK I get it now:thumbsup: Sorry I made you explain further. Shopping is very draining for a woman. LOL Plus we went to a far away fairly new huge outlet mall.

Anyway–thank you

No worries. I should have bridged my thoughts together a little better in my first post. :tiphat:

 

[believers]

Hi AFH,
Would an aithiest who is a fireman who runs in and saves a child from a burning building be considered a bad work?

It doesn’t matter how many children he pulls out of the fire. It is impossible to please God without faith.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[jonfan]

It doesn’t matter how many children he pulls out of the fire. It is impossible to please God without faith.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

yeah. Exactly faith without works is a dead faith.