Protestants, do you take issue with these?

[With_Questions]

Don’t you believe in everlasting life?

Aren’t those who have died in Christ more alive than the rest of us who are still toiling away on earth? Aren’t they already in the presence of Christ? How can a Bible-believing Christian call them dead?

Umm…if you actually have read this thread you would have seen that twice already I have clarified my original sentence to read physically dead.

From here on in though, I will no longer correct those who use the original post to make this same point. I will just assume they have not read the thread and do not warrant a response.

 

[With_Questions]

RCs DO deny that Mary is physically and biologically dead, yes. Not true for Peter, Paul, etc, though.

Interesting. Is that true?

I know that they believe she was assumed into heaven. Does that necessarily mean she is not dead?

Do Catholics believe that Mary has an earthly body in heaven? Doesn’t Scripture teach that in heaven we receive heavenly bodies?

If you are in heaven and have a heavenly body, does that not mean that as far as earth goes that you are physically and biologically dead?

 

[guanophore]

Since you asked…

Talking to dead people strikes me as rather strange. I don’t do it myself.

Me neither! How creepy is that!?

I am curious, when Saul the King was told that he would the next day no longer be on earth, was he talking to a “dead person”?

OK.

For the sake of clarification, let me amend my previous post.

Talking to physically dead people strikes me as rather strange. I don’t do it myself.

Do you think it was “strange” for Jesus to have a little chat with Moses and Elijah? Why do you think He went to such pains to be observed by His inner three doing this? One has to wonder how many times this occurred when He was off by Himself praying. Couldn’t He just have kept this to Himself?

 

[guanophore]

It is written in the NT, that the use of repititious prayer (ie. memorized verbiage) is frowned upon by God. Our prayers, come from our hearts, as the need arises (this can be many times per day). We should begin and end our day with prayer. During our waking hours, we should constantly seek wisdom from God, when we must make decisions, that will affect our own lives, and the lives of others. We are constantly required to glorify God, in anything we do or say. We are basically an extension of God and His Word, here on earth. Our whole life should be devoted to Him, only.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Jesus Christ came to 'bear witness' to the truth. He died for this truth. This truth is the Word of God. The Word of God, IS GOD. If we change the Word of God, we worship a different God.

Do you really think it is possible to “change” the immutable Word of God?

Saul was frowned upon by God, because he saught wisdom from Samuel (who was carnally dead, and asleep), via a medium.

Actually, Saul was “frowned upon by God” many years before this for his faithlessness and disobedience.

Jesus Christ, is the first to be risen from the dead, and currently resides in heaven, on the right hand of His Father (our Father). Why would God frown upon Saul (an annointed king) and not upon us, if we pray to other dead (sleeping) persons? What are we trying to do? Jesus Christ, is the only ‘door’ available, in order to reach God (our Father). He, and only He, is found worthy, in all of heaven. This is also God’s Word.

I am sure that God “frowns upon” all faithlessness and disobedience, and all the actions that stem from it. However, do you really think there is any way thatSamuel could have appeared to Saul, and provided him with an accurate prophesy by some other means than God’s power and grace?

Jesus is our mediator, indeed. But He is a very generous mediator, and is willing to share His gifts and office with us. He makes us partakers of His divine grace, so that we, too, may be made worthy of heaven.

PS, welcome to CAF!

 

[guanophore]

What does all-immaculate Mother mean?

God Bless!

Free from original and personal sin. Here is an early hymn that contains a reference to this:

"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370)

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”,in THEO,132

The Church teaches that Jesus saved Mary from the moment that she was conceived, so that her body would have no stain of original sin. He did this to prepare for Himself a holy tabernacle, and ark, from which He would take His own flesh and blood, which He would give for the life of the world.

 

[With_Questions]

Me neither! How creepy is that!?

I am curious, when Saul the King was told that he would the next day no longer be on earth, was he talking to a “dead person”?

Do you think it was “strange” for Jesus to have a little chat with Moses and Elijah? Why do you think He went to such pains to be observed by His inner three doing this? One has to wonder how many times this occurred when He was off by Himself praying. Couldn’t He just have kept this to Himself?

Well the case of Saul is a debatable case as to what exactly transpired. Some think it was Samuel, some think it was a demon impersonating Samuel. I’d rather not get drawn into that one thank you very much.

But yes at the transfiguration, God somehow miraculously got Jesus and Moses and Elijah in contact. It does not necessarily mean that this was anything more than a one time event. It also does not mean that Peter, James, and John conversed with Moses and Elijah.

But to cover myself in the case that God can miraculously connect myself physically to a dead person, I can amend my statement by putting in caveats. So (since I don’t object to precision).

Talking to physically dead people strikes me as rather strange. I don’t do it myself.
Caveat 1: this excludes the (very unlikely) possibility that God can somehow miraculously physically connect me to a saint that is physically dead.

 

[guanophore]

But there is nothing about communication with the dead. Just because they may be alive does not mean they can hear your prayers. Secondly you don’t know what purgatory is like in relation to being able to communicate-pray someone who has died and may be in purgatory.

ja4, as long as you rely only upon your limited 5 senses, your experience of the Kingdom of God will be very limited.

Catholics know what has been revealed to us by God. There are other ways of knowing Truth besides “proof” and “facts”, as valuable as these are. There are some realities that just do not subject themselves well to scientific proof. I submit that the Apostolic Teaching on the Communion of the Saints is one such reality.

 

[guanophore]

Interesting. Is that true?

I know that they believe she was assumed into heaven. Does that necessarily mean she is not dead?

Yes. Nothing unclean or dead can exist in heaven.

InterestingDo Catholics believe that Mary has an earthly body in heaven? Doesn’t Scripture teach that in heaven we receive heavenly bodies?

Yes.

What God did for His Mother, He will one day do for all of us.

Interesting If you are in heaven and have a heavenly body, does that not mean that as far as earth goes that you are physically and biologically dead?

The Church has no position on whether Mary actually died or not. In the East, they call it “The Dormitian” (falling asleep), and it is believed that she was laid in a tomb.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4412277]
Originally Posted by justasking4
But there is nothing about communication with the dead. Just because they may be alive does not mean they can hear your prayers. Secondly you don’t know what purgatory is like in relation to being able to communicate-pray someone who has died and may be in purgatory.

guanophore
ja4, as long as you rely only upon your limited 5 senses, your experience of the Kingdom of God will be very limited.

Catholics know what has been revealed to us by God.

To whom in the church was this “revealed” to that the dead can hear your prayers?

There are other ways of knowing Truth besides “proof” and “facts”, as valuable as these are. There are some realities that just do not subject themselves well to scientific proof. I submit that the Apostolic Teaching on the Communion of the Saints is one such reality.

That’s why the question of “to whom” has this been “revealed” to is so important. All kinds of people claim to have special revelations from God but that does not make it so. What criteria are you using to determine if the revelation is from God or from demons?

 

[guanophore]

To whom in the church was this “revealed” to that the dead can hear your prayers?

I am sure will come to know this,when our fervent prayers are answered, and you stop biting, tearing, and clawing at the Body of Christ, and allow yourself to come as a little child, yearning for the pure spiritual milk.

That’s why the question of “to whom” has this been “revealed” to is so important. All kinds of people claim to have special revelations from God but that does not make it so. What criteria are you using to determine if the revelation is from God or from demons?

We know them by their fruits!

It is the same way we know about you, ja4. We see the fruit of rejecting what you are given, posting misinformation repeatedly, attempting to divide and separate, encouraging Catholics to rebel against their leadership and disobey the Word of God. We ask ourselves "where does this fruit come from? What is the root that produces such things? And we have clarity, because of what God has revealed.

 

[graceandglory]

But until the last day, the dead in Christ have ceased to exist.

Says who? That’s a pretty definitive statement you just made.

Do you have any theology or scripture to back up this statement?

How utterly hopeless.

 

[The_Smiter]

Ja4… I want you to practice something

Go to the top of the page… and click on “Library.”

Please read about:

1. The Communion of Saints
2. Marian beliefs
3. Purgatory
4. Salvation
   
   After you have honestly read what we believe, I encourage you to come back with questions This is Catholic ANSWERS forums… but I think you have it confused with “non Catholic evangelization, teach ignorant Catholics the “real” truth forums…”
   
   I’ve also found it beneficial, when I have questions from my protestant friends, to go to YOUR profile…and your TWO YEAR history of asking the same questions repeatedly. I’ve heard some great replies from Catholics and non catholics alike… You’re at the very least persistent… Persistent in ignoring the sincere replies people have put the time and effort into giving you.

With great respect to any and all of the Protestants on this board - if it is a discussion of Catholic dogma and doctrine that they are seeking, then this is the place for it. I have read the responses to my posts by others on this board and appreciate their taking the time to do so. However, I am not posting to be an apologist. There is another board on CAF for that. The OP was asking about some specific prayers that he wanted comments on. The conversation has kind of diverged from that, and although our discussion is a healthy one, I think that if all responders are going to do is simply state that they do not believe in something that is a Catholic belief (which does not depend solely on Scripture - so it is kind of a cunard for non-Catholics to bring that up as proof for or against something) then this board is getting away from the OP’s original intent.

I am always happy to discuss and debate matters of our faith that we agree on and the parts that differ as well. However, praying for the dead is something that is held as tradition and in Scripture if you read Maccabees. I understand that if you are a Protestant, that suggestion holds little sway - which is exactly my point. You either believe what the Church teaches, or you do not. I do not believe that not believing all of what the Church teaches makes you a bad Christian, simply a brother or sister in Christ who searches as do we all for the fullness of our faith and a clear understanding of it. If a Protestand brother or sister feels that they already have such understanding, then of course we differ, but that does not make us any less united in Christ’s love for Him.

I think that we can be charitable without belittling or denigrating each other’s beliefs and practices (which is certainly the case on this board) while simply recognizing that we view things differently but we are all under the same Heaven and want the best for each other.

Just my thoughts.

 

[With_Questions]

Yes. Nothing unclean or dead can exist in heaven.

Yes.

What God did for His Mother, He will one day do for all of us.

The Church has no position on whether Mary actually died or not. In the East, they call it “The Dormitian” (falling asleep), and it is believed that she was laid in a tomb.

Then in the sense that I am using the word, Mary is physically and biologically dead (although according to your theology she may not have experienced death).

I mean “dead” in the biological and physical sense in that her Spirit has separated from her earthly body into something far greater, and that her earthly body is no longer in use by her.

 

[adstrinity]

It depends, ads, on what you mean by “take issue”.

When I first read this on my phone last night, I thought this was a fair question. I was going to reply, but, then I saw all the responses this thread has got and I think it’s far more worthwhile to see how those reading defines, “take issue.” I rather like the replies from some of the posters and had not considered that the prayers were more of a line by line issue than as a whole. It is good to see how other people see things and what exactly they find heretical, find troubling, find mildly annoying, find disagreeing, and find commendable. I had not thought that there would be so many takes on these prayers.

AND, perhaps I should have asked, “Protestants and Catholics, do you take issue with these prayers,” as they are all from Orthodox websites. The Orthodox do not believe in the IC and they have not defined Purgatory as such and I find it unfair for this thread for the Catholics to be using those terms. This has to do with how the Orthodox see The Blessed Virgin.

 

[Thorwald]

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Do you really think it is possible to “change” the immutable Word of God?

Actually, Saul was “frowned upon by God” many years before this for his faithlessness and disobedience.

I am sure that God “frowns upon” all faithlessness and disobedience, and all the actions that stem from it. However, do you really think there is any way thatSamuel could have appeared to Saul, and provided him with an accurate prophesy by some other means than God’s power and grace?

Jesus is our mediator, indeed. But He is a very generous mediator, and is willing to share His gifts and office with us. He makes us partakers of His divine grace, so that we, too, may be made worthy of heaven.

PS, welcome to CAF!

 

[Thorwald]

Thorwald:
Hi, guanophore (re: your response item #55 to my message).

First of all, thank you for your response. I have to thank the creators of this website. I have to admit, that it is the best site that I have encountered so far, in freedom to discuss religious matters. I mean no harm in my correspondence, but reather, I enjoy corresponding, immensely.

1. It is very “Christian” of me to say this, rather than very “Catholic”. I attach myself to no religion. I simply believe in the Word of God, with nothing being added by man.
2. Saul (like all mankind) committed many sins. The writings concerning his use of a medium in order to speak to Samuel, are given unto us for wisdom. Saul and Samuel were both annointed by God. Saul was supposed to seek help from God, not Samuel. This tells us, that we should also seek wisdom from God, rather than mankind. The NT clearly states, that we need no man to give us an understanding of the Word of God. We must seek this understanding from God Himself. This alleviates the possibility that “vanity” may defile our “wisdom”. The other problem that we can face, is that we have no knowledge as to how any man’s life has been interpreted by God (other than those of record in the scriptures), therefore, we may find later (judgement day???), that in fact, that this person to whom we have prayed, has in fact been rejected by God (hidden sins???). Solomon was greatly rewarded, because he feared the possible impact of vanity. He went directly to God for wisdom.
3. Of course we can change the Word of God. This is why we have so many different religious beliefs, “bibles”, books and other literature. There is only one Word of God. Where did all of the differences come from? They came from vanity and false prophecy. If I take the writings of the NT authors as being the original truth, and Jesus Christ witnessed this truth along with the Holy Spirit, then who am I to “add/delete” to these writings? We see what happened to Aaron’s two sons when they added incense to the offering, when the Lord had not commanded them to do this.

In summary, unless we are “annointed” by God as a prophet (per Numbers 12:6) and/or have experienced John 14:21-24, we had better leave His Word alone. God will decide who is found to be worthy, not us. We cannot read people’s minds. We do not know what motivated them to say and do the things we hear and see. We can only “assume”. What things do these same people say and do, under the cover of darkness? What evil can they possibly have hidden in their hearts, that we know not of?

I have done a great deal of research over the past six years, tracing the major historical battles since Helenistic times until the present, and the history/beliefs of most of the “Christian” faiths (as well as other faiths). I am appalled by what I have found. The Word of God has been totally defiled. The Christian faith has been turned into a collection of jangling, high-headed members of self-righteous cliques, that serve no purpose in the sight of God. Parameters, rules, laws, doctrines and writings are simply an extension of the works of the past scribes and Pharisees. It is written, that we do not know how to pray. Jesus Christ said this, and he instructed us to use the Lord’s Prayer. There is no mention of any other additions required (Mary, incense, etc., etc.).
We have been told not to create any form of likeness of any being in heaven or earth, and then bow down to it. These images are man-made, and are not of God. In the OT, we were told to use only rocks in their original form, in order to make an altar. It was strictly forbidden by God to manually change these rocks. When are we going to learn, that we have no right to qualify or disqualify any human being from any church assembly, if this person believes only in the Word of God as it was originally spoken/written and given unto us? Remember, it is written, that we will return to the days of Noah. Look around you, and listen. We are already there.

 

[Mary_Alonyo]

what i dont understand is where catholics get the green light to then go and speak to those who are in heaven, as though, THEY, like GOD, are present everywhere.

isnt it God alone who can hear all people at all times and can be present to all people, everywhere? is there some sort of transformation when one enters heaven, that they can hear, like GOD and be everywhere, like GOD…

I dont understand why saints are spoken to as though THEY do things. if a prayer is supposedly answered through their intercession, why are THEY praised? why are their bodily remains moved from church to church? doesn’t GOD’s grace come from GOD?, isn’t it HIS decision whether or not to grant it to you? isnt it HIS grace?

If God says yes to my prayers when I pray for a friend, i would not be happy to then be given praise and be sung to and have statues made of me and flowers put on those statues, have processions… I wouldnt want people treating a statue like it was me there! Its like me talking to my photo album, expecting the people in the picture to hear me, because they are in the picture, kissing the pictures!

I would want The LORD to be praised and maybe a thanks for me bothering, but its my duty, so i’d say " you’re welcome." I’d hope they would praise GOD for even putting me in the place that I can hear that person’s request and intercede for them, “but dont praise me!!”

I dont see how a saint in heaven can teach someone something… like its possible to have interaction with those who have passed into eternal life… where is this belief from? Isnt sanctification the work of The Holy Spirit? isnt He our Counsellor and Guide, whom Jesus promised us?

speaking about grace, why do all graces pass through the hands of Mary and how come this isnt in the Bible? I dont think the visitation counts as proof, or even Mary at the foot of the Cross with John counts. Even if she does intercede for her children on earth, that doesnt mean she can hear them all at once and be present for all of them at the same time, like our omnipresent GOD can. Isnt GOD only omnipresent?

i can understand that all grace is granted because of Jesus’ blood, and God makes that sacrifice and the offering accessible to all people, until the end of time, so we can all be saved! HE gives us that ability so all history can benefit from such an amazing grace!

BUT Mary said yes once, in time, not eternity… her yes isnt eternally present, so that one can then say
“i recieved that grace because Mary consented to salvation”. We have only one redeemer. If a mother’s child dies, that doesnt mean the mother will die, even though her heart may ache. All Simeon said was that a sword would pierce through her soul, as i would imagine any loving mother would feel if their baby was as horrifically tortured and killed like Jesus was! Neither Simeon, nor Anna praised Mary- their redeemer was Jesus. After they saw him, they were happy to die.

when Elizabeth saw Mary and her baby leapt in her womb, it was becasuse she saw the mother of her Lord. She didnt say- her Lord and Lady.

The visitation of the Angel Gabriel to Mary isnt in eternity, that we can access it now and give her glory with ALL that GOD does to reconcile us to HIMself and make us holy. I can go as far as honouring her for consenting, on behalf of humanity, to allow us all to have a chance, but i cant thank her for the peace i have received from the LORD in my moment of pain, today. She doesnt consent to allow me to recieve that peace, now that i have been reconciled to GOD.

i really hope my understanding is wrong because it sounds terrible to me!

where is this teaching from, that all graces pass through her hands?

 

[Thorwald]

Please show me WHERE in the NT it says that repititious prayer is frowned upon. Somewhere that ISN’T Matt 6:7, because that is not what Jesus is speaking of there. He speaks of the pagans who BABBLE, and think that the more words they use, the greater their chance of being heard.

I know of no Christian, RC or Protestant, who thinks that the number of words or lenghts of sentenses is what will determine if a prayer is answered, and therefore your point is null and void.

And, also, please show me where Scripture says that liturgical prayers cannot come from our hearts?
I think it is interesting that the very first Christians came to the Temple and synagoges to worship there (although they probably did not sacrifice), since the Temple service, and the service at the synagogues, were as liturgical back then as they are now. And the services in the Temple even more so.

 

[LutheranDK]

Interesting. Is that true?

I know that they believe she was assumed into heaven. Does that necessarily mean she is not dead?

Do Catholics believe that Mary has an earthly body in heaven? Doesn’t Scripture teach that in heaven we receive heavenly bodies?

If you are in heaven and have a heavenly body, does that not mean that as far as earth goes that you are physically and biologically dead?

Well, I’m not going to answer whether or not RCs believe she has an earthly body in Heaven, or if she was transformed somehow, because I do not know.

But in response to your last question: No, being in Heaven does not per definition mean being dead. When at some point Christ returns in glory, all those Christians who are alive at the time will, Scripture teaches us, be taken up to “meet with the Lord in the air” - and will not taste even the first death. But it is clear that we will not enter Paradise with these frail mortal bodies we have now, so we will, when we meet with Him, be transformed, as Paul also teaches us. So, we will be in Paradise, but we will not have died.

My guess is that RCs believe that something similar is true for Mary?

 

[Thorwald]

Hi, LutheranDK. Thank you for your response (item #21) to my posting.

You have referenced the correct scripture (Matt. 6:7) that I was referring to. I agree with the majority of your response, and have never thought otherwise. The point that I was making, was that we can easily fall into the trap, of regurgitating memorized ‘prayer verses’, and lose track of what our prayer is trying to accomplish. If we review The Lord’s Prayer, and follow Christ’s instructions (Matt. 6:9) to pray in a like manner, and match this to how we really pray, we must ask ourselves if we have followed His instructions.

Any prayer, whether from that which we have memorized or not, is righteous, only if it comes from our heart, and not just our ‘mind’. If we mean what we say, and are not just saying it for the simple purpose of saying it, it will be received by God. Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost make intercession for us during our praying, in order to keep our prayers holy.

There is no requirement by God, for us to memorize any specific verbiage to include in our prayers, other than His reference to The Lord’s Prayer, and this is what I have taken an issue with. This posted thread is what I am responding to. I have never included the material presented in this thread in any of my own prayers, nor do I ever intend to do so. I get the impression, that the original author of this thread, believes that if he/she continues this prayer, that they are righteous, and use this prayer in order to state proof that all beliefs followed by the RC religion are righteous. At least, this is how I have interpreted this thread.