Protestants, do you take issue with these?

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When I first read this on my phone last night, I thought this was a fair question. I was going to reply, but, then I saw all the responses this thread has got and I think it’s far more worthwhile to see how those reading defines, “take issue.” I rather like the replies from some of the posters and had not considered that the prayers were more of a line by line issue than as a whole. It is good to see how other people see things and what exactly they find heretical, find troubling, find mildly annoying, find disagreeing, and find commendable. I had not thought that there would be so many takes on these prayers.

AND, perhaps I should have asked, “Protestants and Catholics, do you take issue with these prayers,” as they are all from Orthodox websites. The Orthodox do not believe in the IC and they have not defined Purgatory as such and I find it unfair for this thread for the Catholics to be using those terms. This has to do with how the Orthodox see The Blessed Virgin.
Fair enough, ads. While the thread has swerved to a degree away from your OP, I thought some of the responses, particularly early on, were quite interesting. One thing that I try to keep in mind when talking about intercession of the saints and the BVM, is that millions of Christians down through the ages have received great comfort from this practice, and I am reluctant to use condemning language primarily for that reason.

Jon
 
👍

Hi, guanophore (re: your response item #55 to my message).

First of all, thank you for your response. I have to thank the creators of this website. I have to admit, that it is the best site that I have encountered so far, in freedom to discuss religious matters. I mean no harm in my correspondence, but reather, I enjoy corresponding, immensely.
  1. It is very “Christian” of me to say this, rather than very “Catholic”. I attach myself to no religion. I simply believe in the Word of God, with nothing being added by man.
I want you to know that what you stated is consistent with the Catholic view. Also, had you considered that what you define as “Christian” may actually, in fact, have things subtracted by man?
  1. Saul (like all mankind) committed many sins. The writings concerning his use of a medium in order to speak to Samuel, are given unto us for wisdom. Saul and Samuel were both annointed by God. Saul was supposed to seek help from God, not Samuel. This tells us, that we should also seek wisdom from God, rather than mankind. The NT clearly states, that we need no man to give us an understanding of the Word of God.
Can you tell me where you found this about the word of God? I agree that we should seek wisdom from God. My point in bringing Samuel is that the “dead” are not “asleep”
We must seek this understanding from God Himself. This alleviates the possibility that “vanity” may defile our “wisdom”. The other problem that we can face, is that we have no knowledge as to how any man’s life has been interpreted by God (other than those of record in the scriptures), therefore, we may find later (judgement day???), that in fact, that this person to whom we have prayed, has in fact been rejected by God (hidden sins???).
I agree that we have only the knowledge of those revealed by God, but not all of these are recorded in Scripture. God is not bound by the Holy Writings.
  1. Of course we can change the Word of God. This is why we have so many different religious beliefs, “bibles”, books and other literature. There is only one Word of God. Where did all of the differences come from? They came from vanity and false prophecy.
I agree about the differences and the vanity and false prophesy. However, I assert that God’s word is immutable, and humans cannot change it. What changes is our perceptions. Humans, as scripture states, “twist” the word, and want it to fit what they prefer. This twisting, however, does not change the Word itself, only the mind of the person.
If I take the writings of the NT authors as being the original truth, and Jesus Christ witnessed this truth along with the Holy Spirit, then who am I to “add/delete” to these writings? We see what happened to Aaron’s two sons when they added incense to the offering, when the Lord had not commanded them to do this.
I agree. I would also say that those writings need to be understood by that same Spirit by whom they were written, and witnessed to by Christ.
In summary, unless we are “annointed” by God as a prophet (per Numbers 12:6) and/or have experienced John 14:21-24, we had better leave His Word alone. God will decide who is found to be worthy, not us. We cannot read people’s minds. We do not know what motivated them to say and do the things we hear and see. We can only “assume”. What things do these same people say and do, under the cover of darkness? What evil can they possibly have hidden in their hearts, that we know not of?
No one can read the heart but God, and those to whom God has given this gift. We can, however judge them by their fruits.
I have done a great deal of research over the past six years, tracing the major historical battles since Helenistic times until the present, and the history/beliefs of most of the “Christian” faiths (as well as other faiths). I am appalled by what I have found. The Word of God has been totally defiled. The Christian faith has been turned into a collection of jangling, high-headed members of self-righteous cliques, that serve no purpose in the sight of God. Parameters, rules, laws, doctrines and writings are simply an extension of the works of the past scribes and Pharisees. It is written, that we do not know how to pray. Jesus Christ said this, and he instructed us to use the Lord’s Prayer. There is no mention of any other additions required (Mary, incense, etc., etc.).
For some reason, you are assuming these are “additions”. In fact incense and other such things were used in the temple worship long before Christ. The Christians did not take them out.
We have been told not to create any form of likeness of any being in heaven or earth, and then bow down to it. These images are man-made, and are not of God.
This applies to worshipping images, not the creation of images for artistic purposes, or to adorn places of worship.
In the OT, we were told to use only rocks in their original form, in order to make an altar. It was strictly forbidden by God to manually change these rocks. When are we going to learn, that we have no right to qualify or disqualify any human being from any church assembly, if this person believes only in the Word of God as it was originally spoken/written and given unto us? Remember, it is written, that we will return to the days of Noah. Look around you, and listen. We are already there.
Well, perhaps you need to re-read the instructions for building the Ark of the covenant, and the Temple?
 
what i dont understand is where catholics get the green light
:dancing: LOL.

Jesus! Jesus is our green light!
to then go and speak to those who are in heaven, as though, THEY, like GOD, are present everywhere.
The saints who have gone on before us can hear whatever God wants them to hear. Just like Samuel was able to respond when Saul asked for him, because God allowed it.
isnt it God alone who can hear all people at all times and can be present to all people, everywhere?
Yes. But, He is not selfish!
is there some sort of transformation when one enters heaven, that they can hear, like GOD and be everywhere, like GOD…
We don not yet now what we shall be, but we know that we shall be like HIm, for we shall see Him as He really is.
I dont understand why saints are spoken to as though THEY do things. if a prayer is supposedly answered through their intercession, why are THEY praised?
Do you never appreciate those who do good things to you? Recently, someone said to me (after a lot of hard work) “I don’t know how I would have done it without you”. Now, I am sure a way would be found, but it was sure nice to have my efforts appreciated so warmly. Why do you suppose God made us this way? Why did God tell us to “outdo one another in showing honor”, and to “think on things worthy of praise”, and other honorable paractices? God is glorified in His angels and saints. It takes nothing away from HIm. If you are a parent, and your child does something swell, don’t you feel proud?
why are their bodily remains moved from church to church? doesn’t GOD’s grace come from GOD?, isn’t it HIS decision whether or not to grant it to you? isnt it HIS grace?
Yes, but His grace has always flowed through material things.
If God says yes to my prayers when I pray for a friend, i would not be happy to then be given praise and be sung to and have statues made of me and flowers put on those statues, have processions… I wouldnt want people treating a statue like it was me there!
I can understand that. But, what if someone got a healing, and came back to you and said “thank you so much for your prayers. I am sure that the faith of our loved ones is holding us up during the difficult time”?
Its like me talking to my photo album, expecting the people in the picture to hear me, because they are in the picture, kissing the pictures!
I suppose there are a lot of similarities. Do you think those images are a sin? Is talking to them or kissing them a sin?
I would want The LORD to be praised and maybe a thanks for me bothering, but its my duty, so i’d say " you’re welcome." I’d hope they would praise GOD for even putting me in the place that I can hear that person’s request and intercede for them, “but dont praise me!!”
God’s word says otherwise.
I dont see how a saint in heaven can teach someone something… like its possible to have interaction with those who have passed into eternal life… where is this belief from? Isnt sanctification the work of The Holy Spirit? isnt He our Counsellor and Guide, whom Jesus promised us?
Yes, the HS is our guide. He empowers pastors and teachers to aid us. The belief that this does not end at death is part of the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints.
speaking about grace, why do all graces pass through the hands of Mary and how come this isnt in the Bible?
Jesus is the fullness of Grace, and it is through her womb and hands that He came into the world.
I dont think the visitation counts as proof, or even Mary at the foot of the Cross with John counts.
Obviously she did not feel the same… 😦

It sure “counted” for her, and for the rest of those present.
Even if she does intercede for her children on earth, that doesnt mean she can hear them all at once and be present for all of them at the same time, like our omnipresent GOD can. Isnt GOD only omnipresent?
She can hear whatever God allows her to hear.
BUT Mary said yes once, in time, not eternity… her yes isnt eternally present, so that one can then say “i recieved that grace because Mary consented to salvation”.
It so happens that her “yes” brought an eternal Source to us.
We have only one redeemer.
Yes, and He is generous. He allows us to participate in the ministry of redemption.
 
If a mother’s child dies, that doesnt mean the mother will die, even though her heart may ache. All Simeon said was that a sword would pierce through her soul, as i would imagine any loving mother would feel if their baby was as horrifically tortured and killed like Jesus was!
This is why I am surprised to hear you say it does not “count”.
Neither Simeon, nor Anna praised Mary- their redeemer was Jesus. After they saw him, they were happy to die.
I notice you left Elisabeth out of that short list. 😉
Code:
when Elizabeth saw Mary and her baby leapt in her womb, it was becasuse she saw the mother of **her Lord**. She didnt say- her Lord and Lady.
Are you suggesting that Catholics think Mary is equivalent to God? We call her our Blessed Lady because she is the Mother of God.
The visitation of the Angel Gabriel to Mary isnt in eternity, that we can access it now and give her glory
Do you think the word of God “expired” at some point?
with ALL that GOD does to reconcile us to HIMself and make us holy. I can go as far as honouring her for consenting, on behalf of humanity, to allow us all to have a chance, but i cant thank her for the peace i have received from the LORD in my moment of pain, today.
Well, that’s ok, I guess. However, when I think of her standing at the foot of the cross watching her Son suffer for us, I am grateful for such a role model. I don’t think I could do it.
She doesnt consent to allow me to recieve that peace, now that i have been reconciled to GOD.
I am sure she rejoices that you have it. 👍
i really hope my understanding is wrong because it sounds terrible to me!
I must be missing something. I can’t see anything terrible.
 
👍

Hi, guanophore (re: your response item #55 to my message).

First of all, thank you for your response. I have to thank the creators of this website. I have to admit, that it is the best site that I have encountered so far, in freedom to discuss religious matters. I mean no harm in my correspondence, but reather, I enjoy corresponding, immensely.
  1. It is very “Christian” of me to say this, rather than very “Catholic”. I attach myself to no religion. I simply believe in the Word of God, with nothing being added by man.
  2. Saul (like all mankind) committed many sins. The writings concerning his use of a medium in order to speak to Samuel, are given unto us for wisdom. Saul and Samuel were both annointed by God. Saul was supposed to seek help from God, not Samuel. This tells us, that we should also seek wisdom from God, rather than mankind. The NT clearly states, that we need no man to give us an understanding of the Word of God. We must seek this understanding from God Himself. This alleviates the possibility that “vanity” may defile our “wisdom”. The other problem that we can face, is that we have no knowledge as to how any man’s life has been interpreted by God (other than those of record in the scriptures), therefore, we may find later (judgement day???), that in fact, that this person to whom we have prayed, has in fact been rejected by God (hidden sins???). Solomon was greatly rewarded, because he feared the possible impact of vanity. He went directly to God for wisdom.
  3. Of course we can change the Word of God. This is why we have so many different religious beliefs, “bibles”, books and other literature. There is only one Word of God. Where did all of the differences come from? They came from vanity and false prophecy. If I take the writings of the NT authors as being the original truth, and Jesus Christ witnessed this truth along with the Holy Spirit, then who am I to “add/delete” to these writings? We see what happened to Aaron’s two sons when they added incense to the offering, when the Lord had not commanded them to do this.
In summary, unless we are “annointed” by God as a prophet (per Numbers 12:6) and/or have experienced John 14:21-24, we had better leave His Word alone. God will decide who is found to be worthy, not us. We cannot read people’s minds. We do not know what motivated them to say and do the things we hear and see. We can only “assume”. What things do these same people say and do, under the cover of darkness? What evil can they possibly have hidden in their hearts, that we know not of?

I have done a great deal of research over the past six years, tracing the major historical battles since Helenistic times until the present, and the history/beliefs of most of the “Christian” faiths (as well as other faiths). I am appalled by what I have found. The Word of God has been totally defiled. The Christian faith has been turned into a collection of jangling, high-headed members of self-righteous cliques, that serve no purpose in the sight of God. Parameters, rules, laws, doctrines and writings are simply an extension of the works of the past scribes and Pharisees. It is written, that we do not know how to pray. Jesus Christ said this, and he instructed us to use the Lord’s Prayer. There is no mention of any other additions required (Mary, incense, etc., etc.).
We have been told not to create any form of likeness of any being in heaven or earth, and then bow down to it. These images are man-made, and are not of God. In the OT, we were told to use only rocks in their original form, in order to make an altar. It was strictly forbidden by God to manually change these rocks. When are we going to learn, that we have no right to qualify or disqualify any human being from any church assembly, if this person believes only in the Word of God as it was originally spoken/written and given unto us? Remember, it is written, that we will return to the days of Noah. Look around you, and listen. We are already there.
 
I want you to know that what you stated is consistent with the Catholic view. Also, had you considered that what you define as “Christian” may actually, in fact, have things subtracted by man?

I simply rely on the KJV Bible. I am well aware that there were other writings, that were not accepted for inclusion in this bible. I am also aware of the problems associated with interpretation of original writings (language barriers, intent, personal preferences, etc.). We have to always face the problem, that the apostles did not record all that they saw and heard. They also would have selectively chosen how they were going to communicate to their audiences, and what specific message that they were trying to get across to their audiences. They were human beings, just like us. We do not know how much of God’s Word, has been lost, but I feel that the Word that we do have, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I have nothing else to rely on.

Can you tell me where you found this about the word of God? I agree that we should seek wisdom from God. My point in bringing Samuel is that the “dead” are not “asleep”

I tried to find the verse that I read quite a while ago, by skimming through the NT (I spent about 3 hours doing this), but was not successful. I will keep searching for this verse, and when I find it, I will give you the location. I cannot remember the exact wording, so I could not use the internet ‘KJV Bible search’ software. In regards to Samuel, I believe Samuel, himself, stated that he was sleeping, and asked Saul why he was bothering him. Correct me if I am wrong.

I agree that we have only the knowledge of those revealed by God, but not all of these are recorded in Scripture. God is not bound by the Holy Writings.

God is definitely bound by the Holy Writings. He has made promises that He must keep, otherwise all would be a lie. He is not, however, responsible for any misinterpretations or changes that are man-made, without His approval. Remember, everything written within the scriptures has been witnessed (other than errors).

I agree about the differences and the vanity and false prophesy. However, I assert that God’s word is immutable, and humans cannot change it. What changes is our perceptions. Humans, as scripture states, “twist” the word, and want it to fit what they prefer. This twisting, however, does not change the Word itself, only the mind of the person.

Of course God’s Word is truth forever. It is the standard by which all humanity will be judged. It is not God that is changing His Word, we are. It is the responsibility of every person, to ensure that their own understanding of God’s Word, is in fact correct, before teaching His Word to others. I have personally witnessed ministers of God’s Word making errors, simply because they themselves misunderstood the scriptures. I have corrected several of them. They were too lazy, to seek wisdom from God, before speaking.

I agree. I would also say that those writings need to be understood by that same Spirit by whom they were written, and witnessed to by Christ.

Yes!

No one can read the heart but God, and those to whom God has given this gift. We can, however judge them by their fruits.

We can only witness what we can see and hear. The danger always lurks in our midst, that we are witnessing the actions of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. On occasion, it may take time, before this ‘wolf’ is revealed unto us. Satan is very powerful and deceitful. We are warned, that on occasion, even the elect, can fall prey to his deceit.

For some reason, you are assuming these are “additions”. In fact incense and other such things were used in the temple worship long before Christ. The Christians did not take them out.

I was referring to the scriptures. Even the Bible allows for the blessing of artifacts/utensils/incense being used in a church. What I was trying to get across, was that these items are not necessary for salvation.

This applies to worshipping images, not the creation of images for artistic purposes, or to adorn places of worship.

I would somewhat agree, but however, time and again, we see people actually kissing statues, praying to a ‘saint’ while looking at a man-made picture (supposed replica) of this saint, or bowing down to a statue of Mary, and praying to it, as if the statue is in fact a true replica of her. We all understand that the statues and pictures were not meant to be used for such purposes, but in fact, they are. We all witness this through televised coverage of these incidents. We also witness the self-chastising that is carried out in many foreign countries. All who have carried out the above acts, declare that they are devout Roman Catholics, and yet no one from the papal office corrects their actions.

Well, perhaps you need to re-read the instructions for building the Ark of the covenant, and the Temple?
I was not referring to items that God Himself has instructed man to build, that He has blessed. We all know that He has given instructions for Noah’s ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the Temple, etc. I was referring to ‘man-made’ changes, that were not instructed by God.

I really enjoy this correspondence with you. Please do not take offense to my responses. God provides all of us with wisdom, on an individual basis, that we should discuss amongst ourselves. No man has all of the answers. Only God, fully understands everything.
 
TO: guanophore

I reviewed my response (item #66) and laughed. I still haven’t figured out how to separate the “quotes” and my responses. I apologize. I could use some help. (After all, if I’m going to continue aggravating you, I’d like to do it correctly.)

Thank you.
 
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