B
Bezant
Guest
:rotfl:
- Status
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Marybeloved
Guest
Yes, she must have been also fair, though. And I’m sure Our Lord never sinned, so I have a hard time imagining it.
Though, if ever there was an opportunity for it, certainly the disappearing act in Jerusalem was perfect. Then again, as someone else said, If I were in our Lady’s or St. Joseph’s place, I would have been scared out of my wits to even imagine “punishing” God!
After all, that “naughty” thing I’m considering punishment for might be part of the divine plan- perhaps it’s some mystery that I as a human cannot understand?Like you say, it’s very hard to try and imagine the life of God’s chosen human parents.
J
JRRTFAN
Guest
I imagine it was a fairly normal family of the time and I’m sure they talked all day every day, if Jesus was home.
You have to define “typical”. A “typical” teenager of today is hardly typical of a Jewish teenager of 2000 years ago. The entire society was different. The values and morays were different. The concept of Mary saying: “Mom, can I get a tramp stamp and a piercing in my nose to go with these low rise jeans and belly shirt?” is a non-starter for me.
J
JustaServant
Guest
I seriously don’t even know how to answer a post like this. Methinks you are in the realm of fantasy here. Your interpretations sound strangely Protestant. I.E. you are reading WAY more into the Scriptures than is intended and are coming dangerously close to blasphemy.
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Bezant
Guest
The answer to your question – was Jesus disciplined – can go either way, we don’t know, and for the purposes of faith I don’t think it’s really important.
From the little that’s said of her in the Gospels, I imagine Mary was a strong, resilient woman. The girl accepts Gabriel’s message at a minimal risk of disgrace and divorce, gives birth in a stable, flees at a moment’s notice to Egypt, probably lives poor in the (then) backwater town of Nazareth. So I think the meek, gentle imagery of Mary is fine, but to me she must have been a tough mum – look at the Wedding at Cana episode!
C
campeador
Guest
St. Peter, on the other hand…
1.bp.blogspot.com/_fJ22So0pDSo/S_S12iBQRkI/AAAAAAAAASI/qRO8hRG-kz0/s1600/dennis17.jpg
1.bp.blogspot.com/_fJ22So0pDSo/S_S12iBQRkI/AAAAAAAAASI/qRO8hRG-kz0/s1600/dennis17.jpg
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kaneata
Guest
I’m thinking Jesus would have needed disciplining as a very young child; he was human too, and being a boy, sometimes, they just don’t think before acting! 
I highly doubt Mary would have spanked Him though. We discipline our children so they won’t do something again that may cause themselves or others injury. Maybe Jesus had a “time out” after he ran out in front a donkey, we wouldn’t want him getting run over! Babies hit and parents say," No" and hold their hands to stop them from doing it again, that’s discipline.
Once Jesus understood right from wrong, He would not have done anything that would require a “spanking.” He grew in wisdom.
I highly doubt Mary would have spanked Him though. We discipline our children so they won’t do something again that may cause themselves or others injury. Maybe Jesus had a “time out” after he ran out in front a donkey, we wouldn’t want him getting run over! Babies hit and parents say," No" and hold their hands to stop them from doing it again, that’s discipline.
Once Jesus understood right from wrong, He would not have done anything that would require a “spanking.” He grew in wisdom.
B
Bezant
Guest
I don’t think he necessarily had to sin to be spanked.
It’s funny, that story, because the Gospel skips over some details: he was there, and then he wasn’t. It doesn’t say that Jesus specifically disobeyed his parents, it doesn’t say how or when he left his relatives and it’s not really clear why he did, either. I can imagine Joseph and Mary’s reactions when they found out he was gone (“I thought you had him!”)Though, if ever there was an opportunity for it, certainly the disappearing act in Jerusalem was perfect. Then again, as someone else said, If I were in our Lady’s or St. Joseph’s place, I would have been scared out of my wits to even imagine “punishing” God!
T
TimothyH
Guest
Our Blessed Virgin would have never used physical violence against Her Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. She would never have had to.
Jesus and Mary were united in a way that we cannot understand. The Second Person of the Trinity spent nine months in Mary’s womb and during this time their hearts beat as one. After Jesus was born he spend several years nursing at Mary’s breast. There is a unity between the two which we cannot fathom, yet this unity is the model for our spiritual life here on earth. Mary had Christ present inside of her and she made Christ present in the world. This is what we are to do - Christ abiding in us and we bringing Christ to the world, making Christ present wherever we go.
Do we not remember Simeon’s prophecy?
…and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradictedl (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34-35)
The unity of Jesus’ and Mary’s hearts was so intense that Mary’s heart was pierced when the soldier’s lance pierced Jesus’ side as he hung on the cross.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The model for domestic families here on earth is the Trinity. The relationship between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in Heaven is our model for the relationship between Father, Mother and Children here on earth. The inner working of the Trinity is our model for the inner working of our domestic families. The Holy Family is called the “Domestic Trinity” and with good reason. Jesus, Mary and Joseph lived out Trinitarian love perfectly.
There is no way in my mind that Mary ever had to use physical voilence with Jesus. I think it is impossible - to say so is to blow apart much or our theology and belief about who Mary is and who Jesus is. It would mean that Mary was not full of grace and that Jesus disobeyed his mother and needed pain to teach him. This is not possible in a theology which teaches that Mary is full of Grace, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the tabernacle of God himself.
-Tim-
Jesus and Mary were united in a way that we cannot understand. The Second Person of the Trinity spent nine months in Mary’s womb and during this time their hearts beat as one. After Jesus was born he spend several years nursing at Mary’s breast. There is a unity between the two which we cannot fathom, yet this unity is the model for our spiritual life here on earth. Mary had Christ present inside of her and she made Christ present in the world. This is what we are to do - Christ abiding in us and we bringing Christ to the world, making Christ present wherever we go.
Do we not remember Simeon’s prophecy?
…and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradictedl (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34-35)
The unity of Jesus’ and Mary’s hearts was so intense that Mary’s heart was pierced when the soldier’s lance pierced Jesus’ side as he hung on the cross.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The model for domestic families here on earth is the Trinity. The relationship between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in Heaven is our model for the relationship between Father, Mother and Children here on earth. The inner working of the Trinity is our model for the inner working of our domestic families. The Holy Family is called the “Domestic Trinity” and with good reason. Jesus, Mary and Joseph lived out Trinitarian love perfectly.
There is no way in my mind that Mary ever had to use physical voilence with Jesus. I think it is impossible - to say so is to blow apart much or our theology and belief about who Mary is and who Jesus is. It would mean that Mary was not full of grace and that Jesus disobeyed his mother and needed pain to teach him. This is not possible in a theology which teaches that Mary is full of Grace, the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the tabernacle of God himself.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
We sometimes hear the phrase “Jesus was lost in the temple” and think that Jesus was lost. But Jesus was not lost. He knew exactly where he was. It was Mary who did not realize the full extent of what her son was doing. The story is about Mary and Jesus, and their relationship.
But we have to remember who Mary and Jesus really are.
Mary is a Jewish mother, the mother of a twelve year old Jewish boy, and anyone who has ever known a Jewish mother knows that they are inseperable from their sons. But Mary is more than just a typical Jewish mother. Mary is the Theotokos - the God Bearer. Mary is the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity. Mary is the Mother of the Church. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth and the Mediatrix of all Grace. And Mary is the perfect creation of God - no other creature comes close to the perfection of Mary. Mary is the crown jewel in God’s creation.
After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.” And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” But they did not understand what he said to them. (Luke 2:46-50)
As a human, Mary is anxious and upset and possibly angry with Jesus. It is the story of a a Mother speaking to her son, but it is also the story of the perfect creature, the perfect representative of humanity addressing the Second Person of the Trinity. And our perfect representative looks the Second Person of the Trinity right in the eye and says…
…why have you done this to us? We have been looking for you with great anxiety!
I think it is impossible to underestimate the level of anxiety and excitement in Israel in the years leading up to Jesus’ public ministry. The 490 year prophecy of the Prophet Daniel was coming to a close and the Jews, who were very literate with regards to scripture in general and understood the prophecy of Daniel, knew it. They were expecting the Messiah and many were looking for him “With great anxiety.”
Jews were going out to John in the middle of nowhere to be baptized by John. It says that they came from all of Judea and the surrounding contries. They were expecting something and so were being baptized, and they ask John if he is the Messiah. John asks Jesus, “Are you the one or should be look for another?” The Samarian woman at the well says, “When the messiah comes, he will teach us all things” and runs off to tell everyone that the Messiah has come. The multitude who ate the loaves and the fishes say, “This is truly the prophet who is coming into the world” and Jesus has to leave because they want to forcibly take him away and make him King. Andrew tells his brother Simon Peter “We have found the Messiah!” Phillip told Nathaniel, “We have found the one about whom Moses wrote in the law, and also the prophets.” People were searching for the Messiah, eagerly expecting him, anxiously waiting for him, and asking “Is this him?” or “Is it you?” “Is he over here?” “Is he over there”." Where is he? Is he from Nazareth? Can it be?
Jews understood the prophecy of Daniel and were expecting the Messiah. And Mary undersood not only the prophecy of Daniel, but that it had been fulfilled in Her Son Jesus. And so while Mary looks at Her Son Jesus, the perfect representative of humanity looks at the Second Person of the Trinity, and says, “How could you do this to us!” "How could you leave us for so long? We have waited centuries for you! You spoke through the prophets and promised to come but you made us wait and wait and wait and wait and wait. How could you do this to us!!! And in saying these things, Mary speaks for all of humanity. The boy Jesus left Mary for three days, but God left Israel to their own will, as they worshipped idols and didn’t obey the law and demanded a king even though God lived with them - God left Israel to their own will for centuries.
And Jesus’ answer is sublime. He does not argue with his mother but answers in a way in which she does not understand. He simply says that she as his mother, and humanity as God’s creation, have looked in all the wrong places. Ever since Adam and Eve looked to the fruit to try to be like God, humanity has looked to the law and the prophets and King David and King Solomon for help, and have looked to the sacrifice of animals and special diets and ritual washings in search of God.
And we do the same. We look for God at the Lexus dealership, or at the mall. Some look for God in sex or in a shot glass or a bong pipe. Some look for God in the stock market or in the gym or in the rule of Government. Some even look for God in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
Remember who Mary is and remember who she is speaking to. The story is not just a cute anecdote. It is there for a reason, put there by God, to teach us something very profound, and to reveal a truth to us which we would not know if it had not been revealed. And there is a moral component to all scripture which shows us how to live our lives. In this case it shows us, among other things, that sometimes when we cry out to God, “Why have you left us?” it is simply that we have been looking for God in the wrong places.
-Tim-
C
couponfit
Guest
I don’t know! What we have from the 4 canonical gospels are stories of Christ that share impact on our faith. We have Matthew 9 to show us that the search for Christ cannot be delegated and that those who search must give up comforts and leave the feast to enter the dark night and desert, and that those who find the light of truth will never return their own path. In other words I suspect we don’t know how Mary and Joseph related to Christ as their child simply because it really does not impact our faith. For starters, Mary and Joseph knew Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God! Mary and Joseph themselves were not necessarily average jews from what we suspect, they likely were very faithful and worshiped God strongly. So it’s likely that Christ did not necessarily grow up with stewards of average quality. If you knew you child was Christ, if wise men travelled from afar to give you gifts because a star appeared over the cave you gave birth in, and if angels appear to you–then you probably would raise the Son of God somewhat differently assuming you were an average person. Then you have to assume Mary and Joseph were extra-ordinary people, in fact our canon teaches they were saints, and that Mary herself is the Mother of God, Immaculate in Conception, Holy and full of Grace, free from sin and redeemed by Christ. That is not your average situation. But whatever the answer is, the answer is it’s irrelevant because all the other parents in the world are not Mary and Joseph, and the other children are not the Divine Son of God, Jesus Christ.
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Elvis_Guy
Guest
Say what??? Man…what are you smoking…
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Telstar
Guest
1: No, but I’m sure He was raised with certain disciplinary rules set up by His parents, the same way all children should be. But, since He never would have disobeyed His parents, or broken any of those rules, there would be no need for any kind of spanking.
2: Never (see #1)
3: No, because she was the Mother of God. A “typical teenager” could never have done what she was asked to do, at her young age. She was wise, well beyond her years, even for that time period.
4: No, because she was also sinless, and didn’t need to be corrected for any bad behavior, just like Jesus.
Administering direction doesn’t require any ‘spanking’. Neither Joseph, nor Mary, would have had to do more than speak to Jesus once, to teach Him the rules.
I’m assuming you’re thinking of when Jesus was told His mother and brethren wanted to talk with Him, and He took that as an opportunity to teach about detachment from the things of the world. What makes you think that gave Mary any angst? She understood what He was doing and didn’t make a fuss over it. As far as the wedding goes, if there was a real problem, Jesus never would have responded to her request. But, He did what she asked, the same way He still does what she asks of Him. That’s why we pray to Mary for favors.
It seems you’re under the impression that Lazarus was the Virgin Mary’s brother. He wasn’t. That was Mary Magdalen, the sister of Martha and Lazarus, that was upset with Jesus for being too late.
It was actually very common for Jewish men to refer to their Mother as “Woman”, and it was never meant as an insult.
I know what the words were!!!
P
PbloPicasso
Guest
Interesting responses. I know many non-Catholics, including my own mother ] that do not believe the same as Catholics. I presented this question in order to open a dialogue with non-Catholics, NOT Catholics, because I already know what Catholics generally believe because I’m Catholic. Now that you’ve all expressed yourselves in a multitude of appropriate and inappropriate, IMHO, I doubt that any non-Catholic will feel compelled to open a dialogue in response. You’ve chased them away.
If you can’t handle the hot water discussing this topic, then don’t respond. Many believe Mary was only a virgin with Jesus and afterwards did like all other women and had sex and children with Joseph. IN fact, they also do not believe that Mary was sinless. It could have been a good discussion, but you’ve thrown the Protestants in front of the bus, which is not charitable in my honest opinion. I try to reach people where they’re at, not where I’m at.
Twice, my own mother called Mary something I can’t even say and would be banned if I just posted what she said about Mary all because she found out I was considering becoming a priest. She offended everyone and made Archie Bunker look tame. She was the embarrassment of my life and literally wrote me out of her Will for taking such conservative Catholic/Christian views. She was also a bigot and my own prejudiced/idiotic brother described her as the “Grand Wizzard” of the Klu Klux Klan. Sad, but true. She died leaving her grandchildren nothing and manipulated my brother’s girlfriend into having an abortion. I wanted to see if this sense of being existed among others who do not accept Mary without sin or Jesus as not needing discipline. Could have been helpful to me to let my own Protestant family off the hook.
Note: SOme of your responses were quite respectful and intelligently presented. Others, well, let’s just say we need some lessons.
If you can’t handle the hot water discussing this topic, then don’t respond. Many believe Mary was only a virgin with Jesus and afterwards did like all other women and had sex and children with Joseph. IN fact, they also do not believe that Mary was sinless. It could have been a good discussion, but you’ve thrown the Protestants in front of the bus, which is not charitable in my honest opinion. I try to reach people where they’re at, not where I’m at.
Twice, my own mother called Mary something I can’t even say and would be banned if I just posted what she said about Mary all because she found out I was considering becoming a priest. She offended everyone and made Archie Bunker look tame. She was the embarrassment of my life and literally wrote me out of her Will for taking such conservative Catholic/Christian views. She was also a bigot and my own prejudiced/idiotic brother described her as the “Grand Wizzard” of the Klu Klux Klan. Sad, but true. She died leaving her grandchildren nothing and manipulated my brother’s girlfriend into having an abortion. I wanted to see if this sense of being existed among others who do not accept Mary without sin or Jesus as not needing discipline. Could have been helpful to me to let my own Protestant family off the hook.
Note: SOme of your responses were quite respectful and intelligently presented. Others, well, let’s just say we need some lessons.
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PbloPicasso
Guest
Tim, I love this picture.
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PbloPicasso
Guest
Am I, now? Hmm. Jumping to conclusions, are we? Hmm. Interesting response, filled with anxiety and not a proper place for such a place to be, “Non-Catholic Forum”. Hmm. If you can’t handle the hot water, then get out of the tub. Not a place for overly sensitive people. Atheists hand out here too you know. I’ve found that Muslims have much more respect for the Blessed Mother than some fundamentalists. And had you along with a few other not been so anxiety prone in your response, they may have come out from the cracks to discuss what they believe. I doubt they’ll do it now, no thanks you these kinds of responses. True, but not the way to discuss it effectively IMHO.What?
Number one: We are talking about God, and His sinless mother. You are applying human failings to God and His own chosen mother!
P
PbloPicasso
Guest
Stay away from theology, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Your words are so misdirected that you are probably confusing everyone around you. I bolded one obvious that you obviously do not understand. The use of the term “Woman” involves other than scolding words, they were meant to reveal Mary’s importance foretold by the Old Testament. Wedding of Canaan. The foot of the cross, Woman, behold thy son, Son behold thy Mother.
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Trishie
Guest
Hi, if you wish to discuss a point with a particular group of people and wish to exclude others,
and if you have a specific agenda, it might be more courteous to make this clear,
instead of reprimanding Catholics for answering such a question as it deserves to be answered.
Your question, in any case, was offensive as it intimates that Jesus may have behaved badly, which is insulting to God Incarnate, and also contrary to Scripture “he did not sin” Hebrews 14:5] and to the teachings of the Catholic Church:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
"IV. HOW IS THE SON OF GOD MAN? 470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98
The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin." 99
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p1.htm
How could you possibly have imagined, given the kind of question, that Catholics would not respond appropriately.
As I said, in any case, a lack of honesty about one’s intentions does mean that one does not always receive the kind of responses one is seeking.
May God bless you.
By the way: the manner in which you spoke to po18guy was supercilious. He is balanced and good, one of the best of us and your comments and attitude to him were unjustified and inappropriate. However, you’ve not been around as long as I have so perhaps may not be aware of that.**
**
and if you have a specific agenda, it might be more courteous to make this clear,
instead of reprimanding Catholics for answering such a question as it deserves to be answered.
Your question, in any case, was offensive as it intimates that Jesus may have behaved badly, which is insulting to God Incarnate, and also contrary to Scripture “he did not sin” Hebrews 14:5] and to the teachings of the Catholic Church:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
"IV. HOW IS THE SON OF GOD MAN? 470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98
The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin." 99
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p1.htm
How could you possibly have imagined, given the kind of question, that Catholics would not respond appropriately.
As I said, in any case, a lack of honesty about one’s intentions does mean that one does not always receive the kind of responses one is seeking.
May God bless you.
By the way: the manner in which you spoke to po18guy was supercilious. He is balanced and good, one of the best of us and your comments and attitude to him were unjustified and inappropriate. However, you’ve not been around as long as I have so perhaps may not be aware of that.
****
E
Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Simmer down.
Open to Protestants to answer.
Open to Protestants to answer.
D
DaveBj
Guest
Trying to picture Mary’s response:
Child Jesus has just come into the house and left the door open.
Mary: Yeshua, go close that door! Were you born in a barn???
Child Jesus has just come into the house and left the door open.
Mary: Yeshua, go close that door! Were you born in a barn???
- Status