Protestants: Do you trust Jesus?

[tGette]

Thanks again TriuneUnity:

That wouldn’t be my argument. I realize some Protestants argue that the Roman Church went off the rails almost immediately. I don’t. It was restricted to a period of time several hundred years prior to the Reformation. The papacy in the year 700 was not what it was in the year 1400. Our salvation doesn’t depend on perfectly pure hierarchies teaching correctly.

So…then from the year 700 there was only a corrupt church to choose from? Or whatever the year we choose…are you saying that in some point in history the only Christian Church(es) that was(were) available for believers was(were) doctrinally corrupt in some way?

I understand what you are saying about salvation not depending on a hierarchical teaching. I could argue that since we might find Fundamentalists in Heaven, then all we need is a profession of faith and “living the Christian life” without all that other “fluff” (Baptism, Communion, etc.). Then the generical umbrella of “catholic” Christianity is good enough.

Again, what I am trying to state is that I feel like this contradicts what Jesus promised about His Church.

And as a Lutheran, if you feel like your Church has preserved the Apostolic Church (correct me if that is not the Lutheran belief), then was the Holy Spirit not doing His job making us wait from whatever period of corruption until the Reformation to get back to the Church Christ intended?

I guess I also think that if the Church was being doctrinally corrupt at those times, why was it not causing splinter churches instead of tainting the beliefs of the original Church?

I guess that is the point (I say “I guess” a lot don’t I?) of the title of my thread is that I feel like Jesus would not let that happen and that historically from the ages there would be one Church that is always holding to beliefs that are approved by the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is just what I hold true…or what compels me.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thanks again TriuneUnity:

So…then from the year 700 there was only a corrupt church to choose from? Or whatever the year we choose…are you saying that in some point in history the only Christian Church(es) that was(were) available for believers was(were) doctrinally corrupt in some way?

On a larger scale, yes. Local congregations may have been more or less faithful. However, I wouldn’t argue it was 800 years or a thousand years. More like 2 or 3 hundred.

Again, what I am trying to state is that I feel like this contradicts what Jesus promised about His Church.

Jesus promised that His Church would be presented to His Father as holy and blameless through His life, death, and resurrection. He didn’t promise His Church would be outwardly perfect in either doctrine or behavior. Though He has given us every resource to insure it. If that were the case, the situation that developed in Galatia and Corinth would’ve never happened, nor would the apostles have spent so much effort warning the Church to be faithful to their teaching lest they be cut off from Christ.

And as a Lutheran, if you feel like your Church has preserved the Apostolic Church (correct me if that is not the Lutheran belief), then was the Holy Spirit not doing His job making us wait from whatever period of corruption until the Reformation to get back to the Church Christ intended?

If a Church becomes corrupt in its teaching is there a timeframe that is established before it is corrected? No. In the case of the Lutheran Reformation, the Church had to wait a few hundred years. The early Church took a longer period of time correcting the error of the Arians, the Pelagians, and the Gnostics.

I guess I also think that if the Church was being doctrinally corrupt at those times, why was it not causing splinter churches instead of tainting the beliefs of the original Church?

There had been prior to the Reformation. The situation was such that in many cases the adherents were burned at the stake for splintering. In some cases, the splinters were worse than the original.

I guess that is the point (I say “I guess” a lot don’t I?) of the title of my thread is that I feel like Jesus would not let that happen and that historically from the ages there would be one Church that is always holding to beliefs that are approved by the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is just what I hold true…or what compels me.

There always have been churches throughout the entire post-apostolic age up to today that teaches the faith correctly. There has never ceased to be a visibly orthodox church. Whether that was on a larger scale in the form of the Roman diocese at one point in time, or a local parish somewhere.

 

[tGette]

There always have been churches throughout the entire post-apostolic age up to today that teaches the faith correctly. There has never ceased to be a visibly orthodox church. Whether that was on a larger scale in the form of the Roman diocese at one point in time, or a local parish somewhere.

So…what I am trying to understand here is then why is it not one of these local parishes that we use? If one of these existed why was the Reformation necassary? (Partially a rhetorical question.)

I know what you are saying, that the Church could be corrupt in one area but in some remote area still be adhering to orthodox beliefs.

I cannot help, but think that if the Protestants are indeed correct…that means that the Catholics are way wrong. Do you feel like Catholics can still be saved? Is Christ going to chastise us because we love Mary too much?

 

[JohnnyReb]

Of Course we do, that is why we are protestants

That’s not really an answer

That would be like me saying, well if you did you would be Catholic

 

[TriuneUnity]

So…what I am trying to understand here is then why is it not one of these local parishes that we use? If one of these existed why was the Reformation necassary? (Partially a rhetorical question.)

Because of necessity. Remember that prior to the posting of the 95 theses and the resultant explosion, it was a local parish that was teaching the orthodox faith. In Wittenberg

I know what you are saying, that the Church could be corrupt in one area but in some remote area still be adhering to orthodox beliefs.

A good example of this would be Athanasius’ parish in Milan vs. the Arian dioceses’ throughout the West and East.

I cannot help, but think that if the Protestants are indeed correct…that means that the Catholics are way wrong. Do you feel like Catholics can still be saved? Is Christ going to chastise us because we love Mary too much?

Catholicism is wrong on a number of issues. Of course, it is still a Christian church. It has valid sacraments and the word of God is heard and read within it. It confesses orthodoxy on the Trinity and the Person of Christ. Wherever this is done, there will be members of the Church. I don’t presume to say anyone’s faith in Christ is not valid unless given reason otherwise. There’s a lot of danger in the view on justification.

 

[AlexiaMusing]

I knew this would not be well received.

Fair enough, but really it seems there are only two choices: either the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church. I guess the point I am trying to get at is that since Jesus did establish a Church it would have to be able to trace its history back to the time of the Apostles. There are no other churches other than these two which can possibly be an option. If there were, that Church would be historically provable and still around today.

 

[tGette]

Of course they would tell me my premise is faulty…that is why there are other churches.

I was just trying to get at an understanding why people feel like the church they are in is indeed the one given to us by Jesus.

Jesus did teach us how to have a loving, living relationship with God which can be learned about in His Church.

He most definitely established a Church, it clearly says so in the Bible.

I understand 100% your point-of-view.

What I keep trying to emphasize is that since the God of the Universe established a Church…shouldn’t it be pretty obvious which one is His?

 

[tGette]

I know I will suffer rebukes because of this:

Is the Holy Spirit only capable of keeping the Truth in small local churches?

If the Catholic Church is wrong…the Holy Spirit did a poor job of protecting the Church from error. If this is true, it is sad that the majority of Christians do not believe correctly and believe contrary to the way Jesus wants them to believe. It is more sad that it took a man 1,500 years later to rediscover this truth.

Do you trust Martin Luther more than you trust Jesus?

For that matter…Protestants, do you trust the humans who founded your church more than you trust Jesus?
(You know…our Lord…who gave us a Church.)

I do, however, appreciate that Luther got the Church to recognize its moral wrong-doings. So I guess in that sense, one man helped the Church.

Let’s ask Jesus:
Jesus,
What is the True Church established by you and protected from error by Your Holy Spirit? Is there one? Father, please reveal this Truth to us!
Amen! Amen!
+

 

[notsmart]

Reveal it to me also, even if I am not a non catholic christian.

Protestants get all the attention around here.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I know I will suffer rebukes because of this:

Is the Holy Spirit only capable of keeping the Truth in small local churches?

No. But He is not obligated to preserve the truth of the faith on a large scale. It is not our position to try and figure out the will of God. When practically all of Israel became apostate, with the exception of 3000 faithful, did the Holy Spirit do a poor job of protecting the truth?

If the Catholic Church is wrong…the Holy Spirit did a poor job of protecting the Church from error. If this is true, it is sad that the majority of Christians do not believe correctly and believe contrary to the way Jesus wants them to believe. It is more sad that it took a man 1,500 years later to rediscover this truth.

I wouldn’t argue it was 1500 years. It’s my guess most mainline Protestants would not argue that either. The capability of the Holy Spirit is not dependent on the Church. It is the other way around. Scripture also makes it clear that the Holy Spirit can be resisted by the godlessness and unrepentance of men.

Do you trust Martin Luther more than you trust Jesus?

No, but we do trust him over the false doctrine of a self-proclaimed Vicar of Christ.

For that matter…Protestants, do you trust the humans who founded your church more than you trust Jesus?
(You know…our Lord…who gave us a Church.)

This again operates under the assumption that Rome is the Church Christ founded.

Jesus,
What is the True Church established by you and protected from error by Your Holy Spirit? Is there one? Father, please reveal this Truth to us!
Amen! Amen!
+

I would join you in that prayer if we go to the Scriptures to determine what the True Church is, and not apologetic arguments and faulty presuppositions.

 

[tGette]

Thank you TruineUnity!

I knew I would get a good response from you. I think secretly I was addressing the question to you. I just love to pick brains…it is only fair to know why other’s believe what they believe.

It is safe to say we disagree right? LoL!

Please do join in the prayer…under no presuppositions.

I actually made the prayer (or one similar…I cannot remember all my prayers that come from the heart) after church one day because, not that I was doubting my faith, but because I figured it was worth praying for, just to verify everything.
I felt guilty praying it because I felt like I was telling God I did not trust where He has led me. But it never hurts to ask God to put your faith firmly where He knows it should be.

For you notsmart:
Father, through the Love of Your Holy Spirit, who sent Your son, our Lord Jesus Christ into this world to do die for us, please reveal to us the Truth we are all here seeking. Whatever Truth it is we need to know…please give it to us, because it is Your Truth! I beg of you! Thank you!
Amen! Amen!
+

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thank you TruineUnity!

I knew I would get a good response from you. I think secretly I was addressing the question to you. I just love to pick brains…it is only fair to know why other’s believe what they believe.

It is safe to say we disagree right? LoL!

LOL…yes…In love I hope.

 

[tGette]

Definitely in love!
Speaking of which:
We should hope in love through faith!

I do not want to sound self-righteous, but I need to go pray.
Any intention I could add for you? Or anyone reading this?

I have been holding off my prayers to keep posting.
(Forgive me Lord, by Your Merciful Love!)

God willing, I will be back this evening!

Stay faithful!

 

[TriuneUnity]

Definitely in love!
Speaking of which:
We should hope in love through faith!

I do not want to sound self-righteous, but I need to go pray.
Any intention I could add for you? Or anyone reading this?

I have been holding off my prayers to keep posting.
(Forgive me Lord, by Your Merciful Love!)

God willing, I will be back this evening!

Stay faithful!

Sure…my wife, definately. She is recovering from major surgery.

Thank you. I will add you to my prayers as well.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

How can Jesus, be happy with all this schism?

He is not happy for the schism, he is happy his words hold true, that the Catholic church he built upon Peter will never fail, even though the gates of hell come against her, in the past it was martyrdom, then the monastic life, today schism (**tears in the net **of Peter, the fisherman that Jesus built his church upon.) Remember, who can move the Church that Jesus built upon ROCK Peter, this Rock can never be moved, by any schism. Those who do not cling to the net of Peter, will live in the sea of change and chaos, Lest they cling to the Rock and build their house that can save them from destruction.